King Air crashes into building at Wichita

denverpilot said:
Didn't know that. Thought they ran really poorly on 100LL.
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Just run a bit hotter, nothing unreasonable.

In the Allison powered helicopters they had a section on running 100LL versus Jet A. IIRC we could run 200 hours on 100LL between TBO.

I knew a jump zone operator that ran a Twin Otter and a C208 using home heating oil mixed with 100LL. :rolleyes: On several tuna boats the helicopters (Hughes 500) run on diesel.
 
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Several PT-6 drivers here say they run it about once a year for 30 minutes or so to "devarnish" the fuel system....
 
Leaned something today. Had no idea turbines could be run on avgas. Makes sense, physically, of course, just never heard of it. Neat.
 
denverpilot said:
Leaned something today. Had no idea turbines could be run on avgas. Makes sense, physically, of course, just never heard of it. Neat.
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Apparently the limitation is because the 100LL is so dry and the high pressure fuel pump needs the lubricity of JetA / Diesel / Kerosene to lubricate the moving surfaces inside the fuel pump.... They claim ( adding a small amount of 2 stroke oil) to 100LL will save the metal surfaces in the entire fuel system from scuffing...;)
 
N801BH said:
Apparently the limitation is because the 100LL is so dry and the high pressure fuel pump needs the lubricity of JetA / Diesel / Kerosene to lubricate the moving surfaces inside the fuel pump.... They claim ( adding a small amount of 2 stroke oil) to 100LL will save the metal surfaces in the entire fuel system from scuffing...;)
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Isn't that what the lead is for? :rolleyes:
 
Geico266 said:
Isn't that what the lead is for? :rolleyes:
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Lead is for improving the anti-knock properties.

Turbines will work fine on 100LL. The lubricity will eventually take a toll, but not immediately.
 
FWIW, here is a video of simulated engine out in a B100:


I enjoy watching this guy's (Guido Warnecke) videos on YouTube.
 
Educational - thanks!

I remember doing a similar drill in an Apache out of New Tamiami in S FL.

Simpler airplane but a LOT less climb reserve - it took a lot of discipline to get the nose down to the blue line when it appeared that could just about put you into the swamp!
 
FastEddieB said:
Educational - thanks!

I remember doing a similar drill in an Apache out of New Tamiami in S FL.

Simpler airplane but a LOT less climb reserve - it took a lot of discipline to get the nose down to the blue line when it appeared that could just about put you into the swamp!
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Airspeed is LIFE.......

If not, gravity wins...:redface:
 
N801BH said:
Airspeed is LIFE.......

If not, gravity wins...:redface:
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Yep!

It was drilled into me that into the swamp at blue line and under control beat the alternative every time!

Then again, the instinct to pull the nose up to avoid the swamp was very, very strong - pushing the nose down just feels unnatural and has to be specifically and repeatedly trained for.

I can see how, in a sudden, low altitude emergency that instinct could win out just long enough to get one in some very serious trouble.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
?????:dunno:

Doesn't matter, the PT-6 will run on anything flammable, jet fuel, diesel, #2 home heating oil, gasoline, etc.....
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Yeah, I was trying to come up with something that wouldn't burn.. I didn't come up with much.
 
FastEddieB said:
Yep!

It was drilled into me that into the swamp at blue line and under control beat the alternative every time!

Then again, the instinct to pull the nose up to avoid the swamp was very, very strong - pushing the nose down just feels unnatural and has to be overcome.

I can see how, in a sudden, low altitude emergency that instinct could win out just long enough to get one in some very serious trouble.
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Just as it did near buffalo. He did exactly the wrong thing. In this case the pilot had lots of room off airport to set it down if he was unable to contend with an engine out. Interesting to see how the investigation goes.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Just run a bit hotter, nothing unreasonable.

In the Allison powered helicopters they had a section on running 100LL versus Jet A. IIRC we could run 200 hours on 100LL between TBO.

I knew a jump zone operator that ran a Twin Otter and a C208 using home heating oil mixed with 100LL. :rolleyes: On several tuna boats the helicopters (Hughes 500) run on diesel.
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Any differences in power?
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Just as it did near buffalo. He did exactly the wrong thing. In this case the pilot had lots of room off airport to set it down if he was unable to contend with an engine out. Interesting to see how the investigation goes.
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The options immediately off the end of 1R are not that goo . Just to the right is the big ditch though which would be survivable probably.
 
You guys making me want to try 100LL in my space heater. :)
 
Since we are on the subject of a "possible misfuel" and 100LL in a PT6. What is 100LL made of? I know Jet-A is made from kerosine so it explodes when its being "put to use". What about 100LL? How are they so different from each other?
 
Ryanb said:
Since we are on the subject of a "possible misfuel" and 100LL in a PT6. What is 100LL made of? I know Jet-A is made from kerosine so it explodes when its being "put to use". What about 100LL? How are they so different from each other?
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ummm, lots different...

Jet-A burns (no explosion) when used in a turbine just like 100LL will burn in a turbine. It's a continuous flame in the burner section of the engine. The hydrocarbon chains are longer in Jet-A than in Avgas.

100LL is measured against octane (C8H18) in terms of detonation resistance and is composed of lighter hydrocarbons with a specified vapor pressure (chem-E design stuff). The whole point of the lead is to reduce the tendency to detonate while allowing the use of lighter hydrocarbon chains in the fuel composition. Pure octane would be great to use but very expensive.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Very small, there were no power charts for 100LL operation so that tells me its negligible.
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Interesting to know. I imagine you have to log the time flown on 100LL somewhere but other than that it's business as usual huh?

Ryanb said:
Since we are on the subject of a "possible misfuel" and 100LL in a PT6. What is 100LL made of? I know Jet-A is made from kerosine so it explodes when its being "put to use". What about 100LL? How are they so different from each other?
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On the subject of possible misfuels in general - although Jet-A into a piston:

Avgas and Jet A Contamination Results
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74702
 
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Most turbines will burn 100LL no problem, and when its a mixture not bad at all...30 years ago MOGAS was an emergency fuel for Army Aircraft if necessary in a Combat situation or emergency...It drastically reduced the life of the hot end section but considered an acceptable practice if necessary. Once everything was converted to JP-8 as a universal fuel for all Army vehicles it was no longer an option.

Log book entry was all that was necessary and at 100hrs of mogas use the hot end needed a major inspection.
 
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Warlock said:
Most turbines will burn 100LL no problem, and when its a mixture not bad at all...30 years ago MOGAS was an emergency fuel for Army Aircraft if necessary in a Combat situation or emergency...It drastically reduced the life of the hot end section but considered an acceptable practice if necessary. Once everything was converted to JP-8 as a universal fuel for all Army vehicles it was no longer an option.

Log book entry was all that was necessary and at 100hrs of mogas use the hot end needed a major inspection.
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I used to fly a C-425 and 100LL was ok to use as long as it had a certain amount of prist in it. It also had a time limit but I don't remember how much time it could be used.
 
Prist was used when we had to burn mogas as well...
 
Warlock said:
Prist was used when we had to burn mogas as well...
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OK... Now I am really confused...:confused::confused::confused:..

Prist is an additive for JetA to prevent ice crystals from forming... What the heck does it have to do with the volitility of 100LL...:dunno:
 
TedR3 said:
FWIW, here is a video of simulated engine out in a B100:


I enjoy watching this guy's (Guido Warnecke) videos on YouTube.
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Not that it really matters, but that's a TPE331 powered Kingair and not a PT6 which was in this accident. Not a whole lot of difference, but there are some.
 
Zeldman said:
I used to fly a C-425 and 100LL was ok to use as long as it had a certain amount of prist in it. It also had a time limit but I don't remember how much time it could be used.
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I remember from my Citation training, you could burn so many hours of 100LL per hot section or overhaul. The instructor basically said if you're stuck on an island and the only way to escape the zombies is the Citation and the only fuel is 100LL, go for it. :eek: Otherwise wait on the Jet-A truck. :D
 
Prist was added when ever you were not burning JP-4, 5 or 8 as it already had it in it to Mil Spec...Also has a biocide..no clue as to the real reason though...
 
Warlock said:
Prist was added when ever you were not burning JP-4, 5 or 8 as it already had it in it to Mil Spec...Also has a biocide..no clue as to the real reason though...
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Just the military wasting billions of tax dollars...:mad2::mad2::mad2:...

They are professionals at that, ya know...:yes:........:(
 
It's not aviation related, but in 1968 two of the Lotus turbines entered in the Indy 500 ran away with the race until ten laps from the end. Then they both had fuel pump failures.

The turbines were fueled with gasoline, and it was later determined the lack of lubricity in the fuel caused the failure.
 
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