Keeping student XC stuff organized

[NovemberZulu]

Completed my first dual cross country. It was definitely a learning experience!

My biggest issue was keeping all my stuff organized. What do you guys do without an ipad? The biggest PITA was the sectional, especially when we did a diversion and the new airport was on the crease of the chart. Had to refold it and nearly elbowed my CFI in the face multiple times. Maybe he will rethink his policy on ipads after that

 

[Seanaldinho]

Completed my first dual cross country. It was definitely a learning experience!

My biggest issue was keeping all my stuff organized. What do you guys do without an ipad? The biggest PITA was the sectional, especially when we did a diversion and the new airport was on the crease of the chart. Had to refold it and nearly elbowed my CFI in the face multiple times. Maybe he will rethink his policy on ipads after that

Its much easier without that fella ruining your fuel burn in the right seat.

Seriously, on the solo just use that seat for all your stuff.

 

[frfly172]

Good practice ,your going to have a DPE in the right seat during your test.

 

[LeeDeep]

I recently did both day dials and the night dual. I use the sectional, folded to an area reasonably larger than the route of my trip, even if it doesn't follow the factory creases, and use spring clips to hold it. Then I fold that in half to make it manageable, keeping my current position visible. And then I use that as my "knee board" with my nag log folded in half on top. If diverting outside your folded are, I don't see any other way other than elbowing the instructor, but I'm open so suggestions too.

 

[jordane93]

get a kneeboard or clipboard. clip your sectional down and keep a piece of paper on top to write down times, taxi instructions, ATIS information, etc. Cockpit management is a task on the PTS so make sure on your checkride you're not fumbling through papers and dropping things

 

[Scott@KTYR]

+1 I did this too!

I recently did both day dials and the night dual. I use the sectional, folded to an area reasonably larger than the route of my trip, even if it doesn't follow the factory creases, and use spring clips to hold it. Then I fold that in half to make it manageable, keeping my current position visible. And then I use that as my "knee board" with my nag log folded in half on top. If diverting outside your folded are, I don't see any other way other than elbowing the instructor, but I'm open so suggestions too.

 

[Matthew]

Solo XCs I put my flight bag on the right seat. That way you can grab whatever you need or stuff what you don't need back into it.

BUT, anytime I put my bag in the right seat I run the seatbelt or shoulder harness through the strap or handle. I don't want that bag falling into the footwell and jamming anything. I saw that happen to someone about 10 feet after takeoff. He managed to circle back with a jammed stick (he had a center stick and had little to no right aileron control) and land. He climbed out and tore through 3 cigarettes before his hands stopped shaking.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Pffft try it in a little helicopter, with the doors off, then tell us how difficult it is.

 

[CMTowner]

I had a harder time keeping the instructors hands off the controls. It was great experience to always keep flying the plane.

 

[NovemberZulu]

You guys are great thanks.

Planning to use the empty seat on solos and make any passengers hold stuff, but I'm guessing the DPE won't so I want to figure out how I'll manage the checkride.


I had the sectional and TAC folded just to my route so I'll try to include possible alternates next time to avoid refolding midflight (I was having so much trouble with the dam thing I had to have my CFI take the controls for a few minutes). Clipping it down sounds like a GREAT idea. I had my checklist and kneeboard clipped down but not the charts so I kept dropping them and they'd come unfolded. Probably happened 3-4 times


I have a small kneeboard but the Navlog was on an 8.5"x11" paper so too big. I'm thinking I will make my own version to fit the kneeboard and take up less space. Do you think the DPE will mind if it still has all the same info?

 

[NovemberZulu]

Pffft try it in a little helicopter, with the doors off, then tell us how difficult it is.

Is there any way to 'trim' a helicopter? I mean, how do you take your hands off the controls to write stuff down with just one pilot?


I originally wanted to learn to fly helicopters since I heard airplanes get boring and "just fly themselves." Then I did an intro flight in an R44. Pretty sure I was going to kill us all every time I touched the cyclic
After that I couldn't wait to fly planes.

 

[Matthew]

You guys are great thanks.

Planning to use the empty seat on solos and make any passengers hold stuff, but I'm guessing the DPE won't so I want to figure out how I'll manage the checkride.


I had the sectional and TAC folded just to my route so I'll try to include possible alternates next time to avoid refolding midflight (I was having so much trouble with the dam thing I had to have my CFI take the controls for a few minutes). Clipping it down sounds like a GREAT idea. I had my checklist and kneeboard clipped down but not the charts so I kept dropping them and they'd come unfolded. Probably happened 3-4 times


I have a small kneeboard but the Navlog was on an 8.5"x11" paper so too big. I'm thinking I will make my own version to fit the kneeboard and take up less space. Do you think the DPE will mind if it still has all the same info?

Use any navlog you'd like. Some will fold in half so they fit easily in a kneeboard format.

Here's as good one I like and use. It prints on both sides, so you'll need a 2-sided prtinter or you'll have to mess with it. The opposite pages are printed upside down to each other so when the top edge is clipped in your kneeboard, you can flip the page up and things on the back will be right side up.


http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/VFRFlightPlanner/

 

[ClimbnSink]

Is there any way to 'trim' a helicopter? I mean, how do you take your hands off the controls to write stuff down with just one pilot?


I originally wanted to learn to fly helicopters since I heard airplanes get boring and "just fly themselves." Then I did an intro flight in an R44. Pretty sure I was going to kill us all every time I touched the cyclic
After that I couldn't wait to fly planes.

You can friction the collective and go hands off for a short bit, but writing stuff down is dodgy.

 

[NovemberZulu]

Use any navlog you'd like. Some will fold in half so they fit easily in a kneeboard format.

Here's as good one I like and use. It prints on both sides, so you'll need a 2-sided prtinter or you'll have to mess with it. The opposite pages are printed upside down to each other so when the top edge is clipped in your kneeboard, you can flip the page up and things on the back will be right side up.


http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/VFRFlightPlanner/

That is perfect. I knew there had to be something easier.

 

[Hank S]

I find folding 8½ x 11 paper in half fits my kneeboard like it was custom made. Being right-handed, I load the paper in with the crease to the right, so that my arm/sleeve won't catch and fold over the loose pieces. I write my weather briefing on one, and my nav log on another [NOT back to back!]. Nav log on top, weather second, additional blank sheets below. If going to a towered airport, put one blank sheet in front of the weather briefing, to record ATIS information and any departure information that you may need.

Open the sectional to show where you will start, and fold to be two sections wide [one vertical crease showing]. Fan fold the rest out of the way, then fold in half vertically so that the open piece is almost square. To refold in flight, flip it up to be full height and just "turn a page." It is always complicated going to the other side . . . I always use the facgtory creases, but not always in the factory direction.

I keep sectionals folded up between the front seats when traveling, as I almost always need two and sometimes three. Highlight the route, fold everything up, stack in order of use, and stand up between the seats. Grab the first one; when it's finished, it goes in the back seat or floor to keep me from accidently grabbing one that I'm done with instead of one that I need.

Pen lives in my shirt pocket or clipped on where I can grab it. Another pen is attached to the panel, where I can also grab it. Plotter lives in a side pocket by my knee, where I can get it if needed. You'll need your whiz wheel or E6B somewhere easy to reach for the checkride, so find somewhere convenient and make it a habit now. Seat back pocket? flight bag on right rear seat or floorboards [where you can easily reach it]?

Want to impress the examiner? Print out the Airport Information Sheet from AOPA Airport page [click Kneeboard Format up near the top]. Highlight things like frequencies, runway length & numbers, write in pattern altitude. Fold it in half [thus the kneeboard format] and put them in the order that you will visit them. This is a great way to prepare yourself in advance, and it provides an easy review before arrival.

It's not detailed enough for your PPL checkride, but here is one of my nav logs for a trip home from south Florida [there's a 2nd page, about half full for this first of two legs; the second leg is similar]. Notice there's space to record frequencies as I am handed off, which I write down then read back, and also to record weather. Yes, it helps to write small, but this is the first real benefit after a lifetime of ridicule. You can do something similar, I'm sure. Yes, I still use a kneeboard and a sectional, and I still carry paper to write on [anything I print out and don't need is folded blank side out and saved for the kneeboard. Recycling is free!]

 

[kenjr]

do what you'd do in real life - use the seat next to you. If there's someone in that seat, have them hold it. That's what you'll do after you get your license.

I started mounting my iPad on the dash and it's really nice. It keeps my wife interested in what's going on because she has this moving map in front of her. I'll see a city or an airport or something outside and ask her to find it on the map to keep her busy.

I actually had my navlog paper on one of my XC flights fall down on the other side of the seat and I couldn't reach it. It was a 3 legged trip and that happened on the last leg so I just used the Garmin 430 to get home. No harm, no foul.

Your DPE will like that you use him to look for traffic and keep items from littering the cockpit.

 

[poadeleted20]

My biggest issue was keeping all my stuff organized. What do you guys do without an ipad? The biggest PITA was the sectional, especially when we did a diversion and the new airport was on the crease of the chart. Had to refold it and nearly elbowed my CFI in the face multiple times.

Practice flying with your knees while refolding charts, as this is going to be a problem as long as you use paper charts. As for elbowing your passenger in the face, warn them to mind what you're doing and keep their head out of the way. If your instructor still gets poked in the face, that's on him, not you.

Maybe he will rethink his policy on ipads after that

Does your instructor also demand that you call Flight Service on the phone and copy down weather and NOTAMs by hand rather than use DUATS or other internet sources for weather? Or require you to use a manual E6-B/pencil/paper rather than an electronic calculator for your flight planning navigation and W&B math? Someone should let him know we're in the 21st century now.

 

[poadeleted20]

Planning to use the empty seat on solos and make any passengers hold stuff, but I'm guessing the DPE won't so I want to figure out how I'll manage the checkride.

The DPE should not refuse to do anything that any untrained non-pilot passenger can do. In fact, using whoever's in your right seat in that manner is a positive example of your understanding of cockpit resource management, and should be a plus, not a minus on the practical test.

I had the sectional and TAC folded just to my route so I'll try to include possible alternates next time to avoid refolding midflight (I was having so much trouble with the dam thing I had to have my CFI take the controls for a few minutes).

Now that is beyond the scope of what you can ask of your non-pilot passenger (which for the most part is what the DPE is simulating, other than when you are donning/doffing the hood or other vision restricting device), so you'd better practice keeping the plan straight and level while refolding maps.

I have a small kneeboard but the Navlog was on an 8.5"x11" paper so too big. I'm thinking I will make my own version to fit the kneeboard and take up less space. Do you think the DPE will mind if it still has all the same info?

The examiner won't care what size paper you use as long as you get the job done.

 

[rbridges]

Pffft try it in a little helicopter, with the doors off, then tell us how difficult it is.

you guys can hover while you figure stuff out.

 

[MAKG1]

Practice flying with your knees while refolding charts, as this is going to be a problem as long as you use paper charts. As for elbowing your passenger in the face, warn them to mind what you're doing and keep their head out of the way. If your instructor still gets poked in the face, that's on him, not you.

Does your instructor also demand that you call Flight Service on the phone and copy down weather and NOTAMs by hand rather than use DUATS or other internet sources for weather? Or require you to use a manual E6-B/pencil/paper rather than an electronic calculator for your flight planning navigation and W&B math? Someone should let him know we're in the 21st century now.

Knees? It's not hard to steer the aircraft with rudder alone, as long as you're trimmed. Same problem as swiping an iPad as you try to find a good angle for the sun glare.

A pilot must be able to function with a dead battery in the 21st century or any other.

 

[ClimbnSink]

you guys can hover while you figure stuff out.

Actually in the little helicopters you have to land from a hover to switch frequencies. Whose laughing now? Oh right still you guys.

 

[poadeleted20]

Knees? It's not hard to steer the aircraft with rudder alone, as long as you're trimmed.

You can use your knees, your feet, or your [deleted] for all I or the FAA care as long as you keep the plane upright, on altitude, and pointed in the right direction while you're refolding that paper chart.

A pilot must be able to function with a dead battery in the 21st century or any other.

Agreed, and that's why if you show up for a practical test with an iPad, you'd better also have a backup like ForeFlight on your iPhone, too, or a paper chart in your back. But that's not the same as demanding that you use only outdated tools you'll never use again after the practical test.

 

[EdFred]

Does your instructor also demand that you call Flight Service on the phone and copy down weather and NOTAMs by hand rather than use DUATS or other internet sources for weather? Or require you to use a manual E6-B/pencil/paper rather than an electronic calculator for your flight planning navigation and W&B math? Someone should let him know we're in the 21st century now.

I do. What happens when your hand held electronics crap out? Show me you can do it manually, and then you can use your electronics, except on the solo XC. You can take them with you, but if you break the seal on the paper bag, because you 'need' your electronics to get your ass unlost, you get to do it again.

 

[poadeleted20]

I do. What happens when your hand held electronics crap out?

You go to your backup, as I said above. If your backup is paper, you'd better know how to use it. But if your backup is another electronic device, that's fine, too, with both me and the FAA.

 

[MAKG1]

The FAA clearly doesn't understand correlated faults, and I'm going to guess you don't either.

Big big BIG BIG hint: dead batteries in separate devices are not independent. Absolutely no one charges or replaces batteries randomly. If one of your devices has a dead battery, the next one is MORE likely to be dead than it would be otherwise. Most of us have come across this problem more obviously with flashlights. And there is a similar issue for a lost signal, and a much worse problem for a corrupted signal like the all-to-common western GPS NOTAMs.

A student must be able to function without a doodad, full stop. You are doing your students a disservice by letting that slide. A certificated pilot is a bit different as there are more tools available, but it's still a bad idea to put all your eggs in the same type of basket.

 

[poadeleted20]

The FAA clearly doesn't understand correlated faults, and I'm going to guess you don't either.

Big big BIG BIG hint: dead batteries in separate devices are not independent. Absolutely no one charges or replaces batteries randomly.

Even if that were true, I'd like to know what that has to do with an iPad plus iPhone. And the rest is just supposition unsupported by data.

 

[EdFred]

Even if that were true, I'd like to know what that has to do with an iPad plus iPhone. And the rest is just supposition unsupported by data.

Do they run the same OS/software? If one craps due to an OS problem, the other one most likely will too. The advantage/disadvantage of making everything exactly the same. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.

But I don't look at it as a device usage issue. I look at it as a knowledge processing issue. No one should teach a 7 year old math by tossing them a calculator. Learn your times tables, then use the calculator. Learn to plot/calculate in an analog fashion, and then use the electronics.

 

[Hank S]

Agreed, and that's why if you show up for a practical test with an iPad, you'd better also have a backup like ForeFlight on your iPhone, too, or a paper chart in your back. But that's not the same as demanding that you use only outdated tools you'll never use again after the practical test.

"outdated"? ?never use again"?

I learned to fly [PPL 5/2007] using paper charts, whiz wheel and phone calls to FSS for weather. I find this approach still works, although I'm not sure when or where I last saw the whiz wheel. Highlighted sectionals can be read regardless of sun position, and if my interior lights fail when the sun is down, I have both a flashlight and a neat LED light that replaced my ashtray.

Paper doesn't fail, doesn't require batteries, and there is no signal to degrade or be blocked. But yes, I do use the G430W in the panel, but I still have the appropriate, current sectional open and highlighted, and I follow along on it. It is getting more difficult to cross-check my position with VORs, especially in SW VA and western NC, to say nothing of southern WV. Doesn't mean it isn't worth doing . . .

 

[dans2992]

Paper can blow out the window and is more likely to be out of date.

I have all data in my iPad, iphone, and in the GMX200 in the panel. Think I'm covered.

 

[poadeleted20]

"outdated"? ?never use again"?

Yes. I can't remember the last time I saw anyone beyond Student Pilot use an E6-B during flight planning. And fewer and fewer of my refresher and IR trainees use paper and pencil for the W&B computations, preferring to rely on things like the lovely Aviation W&B app on iPad (which about half my trainees seem to be using). I also can't remember the last time anyone had expired data in their iPad/ForeFlight, but almost invariably, there's something incomplete or out of date in the charts a paper pilot carries (like the CHUM updates to all your sectionals every 56 days or the 28-day Terminal Change Notice for the Terminal Procedures books).

Sure, there are still plenty of folks using all that paper, and if you choose to be one of them, mighty fine. But the numbers of paper pilots are fewer and fewer, especially once they get beyond primary training. Flight Standards recognizes this, and wants to find out on the practical test how safe you'll be tomorrow when you're out on your own, not whether you can use some device your instructor demanded you use during training. For that reason, there is nothing in the PTS or Examiner's Handbook requiring any particular means of performing the Tasks involving charts, computations, etc. You use the means you choose, you make sure you have a backup (even paper charts can go out the window), and you perform to the standards in the PTS.

And one hopes you'll keep doing that after the practical test, too. :wink2:

 

[MAKG1]

Even if that were true, I'd like to know what that has to do with an iPad plus iPhone. And the rest is just supposition unsupported by data.

If you're using an iPhone to back up your iPad, the probability that both will fail at the same time isn't anywhere near as unlikely as uncorrelated faults are. In fact, it's not that unlikely that your iPhone will fail shortly after your iPad, or maybe even before if it's an older one with a tired battery and you left the bluetooth on.

What kind of data do you require to validate that all battery powered devices eventually drain? I suppose you'll require data to back up a statement that every airplane will eventually run out of fuel as well. It's not hard to analyze.

The part you edited out was the relevance. If you think having 20 devices will save you from dead batteries, you're fooling yourself. Given enough time, every one of them will die. And probably on a very similar timescale. All the modern devices have the same batteries in them, and push their capacity trying to make bright displays.

There is a BIG difference between using tools on the ground for preflight planning and using them while airborne. You don't get lost when your W&B app fails and the airplane is still parked. If you can't get it sorted out, you just don't go (but it's quite unprofessional to not be able to get a piece of paper and just do it).

This is aside from Ed's observation. He's right; the OS is a commonality as well. Any critical dependency for both devices is a way to break them both at once.

 

[NovemberZulu]

The DPE should not refuse to do anything that any untrained non-pilot passenger can do. In fact, using whoever's in your right seat in that manner is a positive example of your understanding of cockpit resource management, and should be a plus, not a minus on the practical test.

Now that is beyond the scope of what you can ask of your non-pilot passenger (which for the most part is what the DPE is simulating, other than when you are donning/doffing the hood or other vision restricting device), so you'd better practice keeping the plan straight and level while refolding maps.

The examiner won't care what size paper you use as long as you get the job done.

Thanks for clearing that up.

As for the ipad, my CFI recommended getting Foreflight after passing the checkride. But students have to learn to do it the old fashioned way so they have a backup for the ipad. I was just talking to a guy who passed with the same DPE and his ipad overheated on the checkride and he had to go back to paper. The DPE thought it was pretty funny since she always simulates an ipad failure anyway.

 

[poadeleted20]

The part you edited out was the relevance. If you think having 20 devices will save you from dead batteries, you're fooling yourself. Given enough time, every one of them will die.

I'll run out of gas, bladder, and duty time before that ever happens. And probably die of old age, too.

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks for clearing that up.

As for the ipad, my CFI recommended getting Foreflight after passing the checkride. But students have to learn to do it the old fashioned way so they have a backup for the ipad. I was just talking to a guy who passed with the same DPE and his ipad overheated on the checkride and he had to go back to paper. The DPE thought it was pretty funny since she always simulates an ipad failure anyway.

As I said, you always need a backup plan, and you have to be able to execute it as well as your primary. Nevertheless, there is absolutely no reason your backup plan must be paper (MAKG1's irrational fears aside).

 

[MAKG1]

I'll run out of gas, bladder, and duty time before that ever happens. And probably die of old age, too.

You're fooling yourself. No battery lasts forever, and no used battery lasts as long as it did when it was new. The change will likely accelerate with time and may be sudden.

And of course there are load factors. And maybe the kids playing Angry Birds before the flight.

I'm thoroughly shocked that you claim your batteries never run down. Really? I mean, REALLY?

 

[Skyscraper]

But I don't look at it as a device usage issue. I look at it as a knowledge processing issue. No one should teach a 7 year old math by tossing them a calculator. Learn your times tables, then use the calculator. Learn to plot/calculate in an analog fashion, and then use the electronics.

This is pretty much my instructors philosophy. Use all the technology you want so long as you know the old school manual methods front to back without fail.

 

[LDJones]

You're fooling yourself. No battery lasts forever, and no used battery lasts as long as it did when it was new. The change will likely accelerate with time and may be sudden.

And of course there are load factors. And maybe the kids playing Angry Birds before the flight.

I'm thoroughly shocked that you claim your batteries never run down. Really? I mean, REALLY?

I think you're overstating the battery thing a bit. Most of us who use iPads use them for more than ForeFlight. Mine is with me pretty much all the time, whether I'm doing aviation or something else. I have a pretty good handle on its current battery longevity.

That said, I also fly with a 12V charger and at least two cables. I also have two backup batteries charged and ready to go, each of which will provide at least two full charges to the iPad. Then, as a belt-n-suspenders, I have one of those compact jumper-cable batteries (which I've used to jump a plane!) which also has a 12V receptacle and would probably run my iPad for 3-4 days.

Finally, I have a Nexus 7, fully charged but left off (but tested and verified before flight to be charged and current on all charts), as my ultimate backup if the iPad, iOS or FF were to glitch on me....which they never have in almost three years of use.

So, I think you CAN take advantage of the latest technologies and provide the requisite redundancy.

 

[LDJones]

This is pretty much my instructors philosophy. Use all the technology you want so long as you know the old school manual methods front to back without fail.

I have them plan their dual x-c and first solo x-c flight "old school"...and let them compare their results to ForeFlight. They can also get their weather briefing via FF, but I want them to fly their first solo "old school" and show me the completed nav chart when they get back. Their second x-c and beyond they are welcome to use ForeFlight since they've proven to me they mastered the underlying concepts.

 

[jordane93]

I have an Ipad but honestly I use it for taking pictures/videos. I don't have Foreflight or Garmin Pilot because I don't want to pay the subscription fee. I don't see a problem using any gadgets. Use what you have but always have a back up. Always think if your Ipad/GPS/Iphone crapped out, would you still be able to get to your destination. Cross Country planning by paper is still part of the PTS and we still have to know how to do it. But in reality how many of us, before each X country actually use your WCA, checkpoints, timing or even do any of that planning? Its usually just direct to on the GPS or Foreflight and along we go. I believe all of us including myself are becoming complacent in our preflights, x country planning, and weather briefings

 

[poadeleted20]

I have an Ipad but honestly I use it for taking pictures/videos. I don't have Foreflight or Garmin Pilot because I don't want to pay the subscription fee.

I was spending over $600/year on charts (IFR and VFR) covering my normal operating area. $75/year (or even $150/year) is a very cost-effective alternative to that for me. Even if you're VFR only and never leave the local area, an annual subscription for a couple of sectionals and one A/FD area will run you about $75/year, and that doesn't include the TAC charts you might need.