Keeping student XC stuff organized

[tehmightypirate]

I think MAKG is forgetting the ultimate thing, all these tools such as charts, approach plates, W&B calculators, GPS, flight planning tools, weather app, etc. aren't needed to safely conclude a flight. If you lose every single one of them a quick call to ATC and maybe even declaring an emergency should solve all your needs.

I'd say as long as people know how to tune 121.5 into their radio then they're all set. Now if your radio, ipad, iphone, onboard GPS, and charts out the window all go out at the same time then you're screwed. But really, what are the chances of that happening?

Obviously if you're flying outside of ATC coverage than you should take extra steps to prevent failure of both your primary and backup but, to me, this is simply making sure your batteries are charged and everything is up to date.

 

[Matthew]

I think MAKG is forgetting the ultimate thing, all these tools such as charts, approach plates, W&B calculators, GPS, flight planning tools, weather app, etc. aren't needed to safely conclude a flight. If you lose every single one of them a quick call to ATC and maybe even declaring an emergency should solve all your needs.

That's true - but...

The DPE is going to want to make sure you can safely conclude the flight, and he's also going to want to make sure you can safely command and control the flight. So you'll still need all your ducks in a row.

 

[tehmightypirate]

That's true - but...

The DPE is going to want to make sure you can safely conclude the flight, and he's also going to want to make sure you can safely command and control the flight. So you'll still need all your ducks in a row.

Right but there's a difference between testing normal flight and extreme failure conditions.

 

[EdFred]

Couldn't have had better timing with this thread.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1399485

 

[Matthew]

Right but there's a difference between testing normal flight and extreme failure conditions.

Yeah - Fly the plane!

A aerobatic coach I know always talks about Rule #1 and Rule #1(a).

Rule #1 - Fly the plane
Rule#1(a) - No one ever collided with the sky. His meaning: altitude = time, and time is something you might find can come in handy.

 

[MAKG1]

I think MAKG is forgetting the ultimate thing, all these tools such as charts, approach plates, W&B calculators, GPS, flight planning tools, weather app, etc. aren't needed to safely conclude a flight. If you lose every single one of them a quick call to ATC and maybe even declaring an emergency should solve all your needs.

Nope, not forgetting that.

Those are some of the "extra tools" I referred to for a private pilot.

But I wouldn't depend on a student figuring that out. And it may not go over so well on a check ride (or maybe it will…I think that's a gray area).

With a working radio, calling Guard is always a last resort for getting un-lost. But declaring an emergency? Only if fuel is also low or IMC is encroaching, or some other condition threatens. Being lost by itself isn't an emergency, though other conditions may make it so.

This, of course, presumes you know you are lost. A wrong GPS can give a false sense of security if it is not cross-checked.

 

[poadeleted20]

With a working radio, calling Guard is always a last resort for getting un-lost. But declaring an emergency? Only if fuel is also low or IMC is encroaching, or some other condition threatens. Being lost by itself isn't an emergency, though other conditions may make it so.

I'd have to disagree with you. While being low on fuel or facing sub-VFR weather might turn it into a "distress" situation in which one is "threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and ... requiring immediate assistance," I still think that being (or thinking you are) lost should create in your mind a "condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely but not immediate assistance." Since that latter part is the definition of an "Urgency" condition, and since "Emergency" includes both "Urgency" and "Distress,", if you think you're lost, I think you have an "Emergency" as the FAA defines the term.

This, of course, presumes you know you are lost. A wrong GPS can give a false sense of security if it is not cross-checked.

In my 41 years as a CFI, I can count on the fingers of one foot the number of times I've seen a GPS be "wrong" without it also giving a RAIM or Integrity warning (operator errors excluded, of course). On the other hand (or foot), I have not enough digits on all my extremities put together to count the number of times a pilot got lost entirely on his/her own with no assistance at all from any malfunctioning electronic device.

 

[tehmightypirate]

In my 41 years as a CFI, I can count on the fingers of one foot the number of times I've seen a GPS be "wrong" without it also giving a RAIM or Integrity warning (operator errors excluded, of course).

41 year old GPS, huh? What did it look like? Something like this I bet:

I can count on the fingers of one foot

What you did there, I sees it.

 

[MAKG1]

In my 41 years as a CFI, I can count on the fingers of one foot the number of times I've seen a GPS be "wrong" without it also giving a RAIM or Integrity warning (operator errors excluded, of course). On the other hand (or foot), I have not enough digits on all my extremities put together to count the number of times a pilot got lost entirely on his/her own with no assistance at all from any malfunctioning electronic device.

You've seen a tablet with a RAIM warning?

Which one?

Panel mounts are a different story.

I've never seen a 430 give BS without saying it doesn't know, for instance. I've certainly seen MANY instances of a tablet giving a wrong answer. Heck, mine RIGHT NOW says I'm about 40 miles from where I really am. I'm inside a building and it can't get a signal. But it happily shows me where its last fix was, almost 10 hours ago, as though it were current. At least it's nice enough to say my speed is zero.

 

[tehmightypirate]

I'm inside a building and it can't get a signal.

Whelp, there's your problem. You're flying in a building at ground level...

But, seriously, I've never seen a modern GPS that doesn't have an easy to access feature that shows accuracy and/or wont warn when it loses too many satellites. I bet it does show you that it can't get a signal properly somewhere, probably fairly obvious too.

I've attached a picture of my phone running Avare with the GPS disabled. After about 30 seconds the "GPS not available warning turned on." There's also an easy to access menu where it displays accuracy (usually around 40 ft). Heck, my 8 year old car GPS does this.