Keeping people employed?

[flyingcheesehead]

That's the point. We need to get back to the point where we can honestly say "You have a degree? You must have learned a lot and are a master at what you do, Mr. Scientist." As it stands, a College Degree is as worthless as a high school diploma used to be, and a high school diploma is as useless as not having a diploma used to be (in some eyes).

To read this thread, you'd think that college is a complete and utter scam, and that nobody ever learns anything useful in college.

Au contraire. I'm halfway between y'all - I'm 36 years old and back to being a student after a lengthy layoff so that I could go out in the real world, make some money, and learn to fly.

So, for a long time, I've been The Guy Without The Degree. A measly 23 credits shy of a degree - And I knew a lot of stuff - but without the paper it was all for naught. I used to own my own business (and it's still going, with my partner at the helm). It was a great learning experience in itself, but I needed a break from that and wanted to just get a decent-paying job working for someone else for a while.

Three times I've spent months looking for a decent job. After spending an average of 8 months each time unemployed and trying, I ended up driving a truck every time. I applied for many jobs, all of which I had the skills for, many of which I made it into the advanced hiring phases, and a distressing number of which I ended up #2 on the list of applicants.

Driving a truck over the road has its upsides, but it has many downsides and finally (4th time's the charm?) I decided it was time to finish the degree, and maybe push myself from #2 to #1. Believe it or not, the things I learned in college actually had applications to truck driving! (I'm probably the only truck driver who, when asked if I could take "just one more roll" of paper, looked at the weights and placement in the trailer and calculated the moments around each set of axles to determine my axle weight, instead of taking it, going to the scale, finding I was overweight, and returning to get it taken off...)

Now... Having been on the "no-degree" side of the equation and now working towards the degree, I have to disagree with the assertion that a college degree is worthless.

Granted, I'm working on a degree in Electrical Engineering, which has a lot more practical application than, say, a degree in "Art History and Criticism" or "Comparative Study of Religion" (yes, they offer both those here) but frankly, before I came here I had only the most basic knowledge of how electrical things work, and I have learned an incredible amount about that (of course) but I have also gotten a good core engineering education - Calculus, Chemistry, Physics, Statics, Dynamics, Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, Materials, etc. - And as much as I don't like the "GER" courses (general educational requirements - 18 credits of Humanities, Social Science, Art, and "cultural diversity"), they are not worthless either - Gaining some extra knowledge in a variety of things unrelated to your core interests does help you understand other people (like those crazy L&S majors ) better, and gives you an appreciation for aspects of the world that you don't normally immerse yourself in.

A degree also proves that you can handle some BS, that you can finish a long-term project, and that you can be trained - That last one is probably why most major airlines tend to require a degree.

So, let's cut the crap about degrees being worthless. They're not. They don't prove that you'll do a good job, and not having one doesn't mean you can't do a job - But on average (which we, as pilots, are not) it's a pretty good indicator, which is why HR departments still use it.

 

[Maxmosbey]

A person without a degree is not worthless. In fact, a person without a degree can be very smart. The problem is that there are a lot of really smart people out there, and a lot of them have degrees. It isn't very often that someone without a degree comes in who is head and shoulders above the people that do have one. So if you have a choice, who are you going to hire? Are you going to hire the really smart guy without a college education, or are you going to hire the really smart guy with one?

I also do not agree that people do not learn anything in college. I have a high regard for people with a college education.

 

[Maxmosbey]

To read this thread, you'd think that college is a complete and utter scam, and that nobody ever learns anything useful in college.

Au contraire. I'm halfway between y'all - I'm 36 years old and back to being a student after a lengthy layoff so that I could go out in the real world, make some money, and learn to fly.

So, for a long time, I've been The Guy Without The Degree. A measly 23 credits shy of a degree - And I knew a lot of stuff - but without the paper it was all for naught. I used to own my own business (and it's still going, with my partner at the helm). It was a great learning experience in itself, but I needed a break from that and wanted to just get a decent-paying job working for someone else for a while.

Three times I've spent months looking for a decent job. After spending an average of 8 months each time unemployed and trying, I ended up driving a truck every time. I applied for many jobs, all of which I had the skills for, many of which I made it into the advanced hiring phases, and a distressing number of which I ended up #2 on the list of applicants.

Driving a truck over the road has its upsides, but it has many downsides and finally (4th time's the charm?) I decided it was time to finish the degree, and maybe push myself from #2 to #1. Believe it or not, the things I learned in college actually had applications to truck driving! (I'm probably the only truck driver who, when asked if I could take "just one more roll" of paper, looked at the weights and placement in the trailer and calculated the moments around each set of axles to determine my axle weight, instead of taking it, going to the scale, finding I was overweight, and returning to get it taken off...)

Now... Having been on the "no-degree" side of the equation and now working towards the degree, I have to disagree with the assertion that a college degree is worthless.

Granted, I'm working on a degree in Electrical Engineering, which has a lot more practical application than, say, a degree in "Art History and Criticism" or "Comparative Study of Religion" (yes, they offer both those here) but frankly, before I came here I had only the most basic knowledge of how electrical things work, and I have learned an incredible amount about that (of course) but I have also gotten a good core engineering education - Calculus, Chemistry, Physics, Statics, Dynamics, Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, Materials, etc. - And as much as I don't like the "GER" courses (general educational requirements - 18 credits of Humanities, Social Science, Art, and "cultural diversity"), they are not worthless either - Gaining some extra knowledge in a variety of things unrelated to your core interests does help you understand other people (like those crazy L&S majors ) better, and gives you an appreciation for aspects of the world that you don't normally immerse yourself in.

A degree also proves that you can handle some BS, that you can finish a long-term project, and that you can be trained - That last one is probably why most major airlines tend to require a degree.

So, let's cut the crap about degrees being worthless. They're not. They don't prove that you'll do a good job, and not having one doesn't mean you can't do a job - But on average (which we, as pilots, are not) it's a pretty good indicator, which is why HR departments still use it.

Very well said.

 

[SkyHog]

To read this thread, you'd think that college is a complete and utter scam, and that nobody ever learns anything useful in college.

Au contraire. I'm halfway between y'all - I'm 36 years old and back to being a student after a lengthy layoff so that I could go out in the real world, make some money, and learn to fly.

So, for a long time, I've been The Guy Without The Degree. A measly 23 credits shy of a degree - And I knew a lot of stuff - but without the paper it was all for naught. I used to own my own business (and it's still going, with my partner at the helm). It was a great learning experience in itself, but I needed a break from that and wanted to just get a decent-paying job working for someone else for a while.

Three times I've spent months looking for a decent job. After spending an average of 8 months each time unemployed and trying, I ended up driving a truck every time. I applied for many jobs, all of which I had the skills for, many of which I made it into the advanced hiring phases, and a distressing number of which I ended up #2 on the list of applicants.

Driving a truck over the road has its upsides, but it has many downsides and finally (4th time's the charm?) I decided it was time to finish the degree, and maybe push myself from #2 to #1. Believe it or not, the things I learned in college actually had applications to truck driving! (I'm probably the only truck driver who, when asked if I could take "just one more roll" of paper, looked at the weights and placement in the trailer and calculated the moments around each set of axles to determine my axle weight, instead of taking it, going to the scale, finding I was overweight, and returning to get it taken off...)

Now... Having been on the "no-degree" side of the equation and now working towards the degree, I have to disagree with the assertion that a college degree is worthless.

Granted, I'm working on a degree in Electrical Engineering, which has a lot more practical application than, say, a degree in "Art History and Criticism" or "Comparative Study of Religion" (yes, they offer both those here) but frankly, before I came here I had only the most basic knowledge of how electrical things work, and I have learned an incredible amount about that (of course) but I have also gotten a good core engineering education - Calculus, Chemistry, Physics, Statics, Dynamics, Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, Materials, etc. - And as much as I don't like the "GER" courses (general educational requirements - 18 credits of Humanities, Social Science, Art, and "cultural diversity"), they are not worthless either - Gaining some extra knowledge in a variety of things unrelated to your core interests does help you understand other people (like those crazy L&S majors ) better, and gives you an appreciation for aspects of the world that you don't normally immerse yourself in.

A degree also proves that you can handle some BS, that you can finish a long-term project, and that you can be trained - That last one is probably why most major airlines tend to require a degree.

So, let's cut the crap about degrees being worthless. They're not. They don't prove that you'll do a good job, and not having one doesn't mean you can't do a job - But on average (which we, as pilots, are not) it's a pretty good indicator, which is why HR departments still use it.

Kent, you have illustrated how degrees should work. You are talking about something that requires an inordinate amount of upfront knowledge (like science or medicine). Those fields need a degree because people learn how to do the job.

Lemme ask you. In all your years driving a truck, can you honestly say that anythinginvolved with it would take 4 years of college (including 2 years of core classes) to do? What if suddenly there were so many applicants that the hiring managers stgarted using that as a basis to weed out the unworthys. Suddenly, its a minimum requirement.

The mere reason that anyone even has degrees like "underwater basket weaving" is because people don't see degrees for what they should be.

 

[SkyHog]

To read this thread, you'd think that college is a complete and utter scam, and that nobody ever learns anything useful in college.

Au contraire. I'm halfway between y'all - I'm 36 years old and back to being a student after a lengthy layoff so that I could go out in the real world, make some money, and learn to fly.

So, for a long time, I've been The Guy Without The Degree. A measly 23 credits shy of a degree - And I knew a lot of stuff - but without the paper it was all for naught. I used to own my own business (and it's still going, with my partner at the helm). It was a great learning experience in itself, but I needed a break from that and wanted to just get a decent-paying job working for someone else for a while.

Three times I've spent months looking for a decent job. After spending an average of 8 months each time unemployed and trying, I ended up driving a truck every time. I applied for many jobs, all of which I had the skills for, many of which I made it into the advanced hiring phases, and a distressing number of which I ended up #2 on the list of applicants.

Driving a truck over the road has its upsides, but it has many downsides and finally (4th time's the charm?) I decided it was time to finish the degree, and maybe push myself from #2 to #1. Believe it or not, the things I learned in college actually had applications to truck driving! (I'm probably the only truck driver who, when asked if I could take "just one more roll" of paper, looked at the weights and placement in the trailer and calculated the moments around each set of axles to determine my axle weight, instead of taking it, going to the scale, finding I was overweight, and returning to get it taken off...)

Now... Having been on the "no-degree" side of the equation and now working towards the degree, I have to disagree with the assertion that a college degree is worthless.

Granted, I'm working on a degree in Electrical Engineering, which has a lot more practical application than, say, a degree in "Art History and Criticism" or "Comparative Study of Religion" (yes, they offer both those here) but frankly, before I came here I had only the most basic knowledge of how electrical things work, and I have learned an incredible amount about that (of course) but I have also gotten a good core engineering education - Calculus, Chemistry, Physics, Statics, Dynamics, Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, Materials, etc. - And as much as I don't like the "GER" courses (general educational requirements - 18 credits of Humanities, Social Science, Art, and "cultural diversity"), they are not worthless either - Gaining some extra knowledge in a variety of things unrelated to your core interests does help you understand other people (like those crazy L&S majors ) better, and gives you an appreciation for aspects of the world that you don't normally immerse yourself in.

A degree also proves that you can handle some BS, that you can finish a long-term project, and that you can be trained - That last one is probably why most major airlines tend to require a degree.

So, let's cut the crap about degrees being worthless. They're not. They don't prove that you'll do a good job, and not having one doesn't mean you can't do a job - But on average (which we, as pilots, are not) it's a pretty good indicator, which is why HR departments still use it.

Kent, you have illustrated how degrees should work. You are talking about something that requires an inordinate amount of upfront knowledge (like science or medicine). Those fields need a degree because people learn how to do the job.

Lemme ask you. In all your years driving a truck, can you honestly say that anythinginvolved with it would take 4 years of college (including 2 years of core classes) to do? What if suddenly there were so many applicants that the hiring managers stgarted using that as a basis to weed out the unworthys. Suddenly, its a minimum requirement.

The mere reason that anyone even has degrees like "underwater basket weaving" is because people don't see degrees for what they should be.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Lemme ask you. In all your years driving a truck, can you honestly say that anythinginvolved with it would take 4 years of college (including 2 years of core classes) to do? What if suddenly there were so many applicants that the hiring managers stgarted using that as a basis to weed out the unworthys. Suddenly, its a minimum requirement.

Nick,

The answer to that question probably isn't as simple as you'd like.

There *are* things from engineering school that helped a lot when it came to driving a truck. Understanding all of the forces involved is part of why I never slid into a ditch on a snowy/icy day, for example. The combination of what I learned in college plus a certain amount of learned skill in the truck combined to make me a much better truck driver than many others.

Now, let's say I want to start a company doing specialized hauling - For example, pulling jet engines from the GE Aircraft Engines plant in Cincinnati to Boeing in Everett. Am I gonna hire random CDL holders? Heck no. Are there a lot of engineering-degree-holding truck drivers? Probably not, but there are certainly some... And they'd be on the top of my list. I'd probably still need more drivers than had degrees, but they'd have to prove to me that they had acquired the knowledge, skill, and judgement required to be trusted with hauling multi-million dollar loads through some pretty unforgiving terrain.

Now, if I'm going to attract degree holders to the job - I'm gonna have to pay more, and treat them well.

The mere reason that anyone even has degrees like "underwater basket weaving" is because people don't see degrees for what they should be.

Nobody offers degrees in underwater basket weaving. That's a joke, son! There are many degrees that I consider worthless in terms of actually using your major knowledge after college, but the fact that you completed ANY degree does mean several things:

1) You have obtained some more advanced knowledge in math, english, the arts, science, and yes, even cultural diversity.

2) Because of that base level of knowledge that everyone must gain to get a college degree, I know that you are capable of completing tasks on your own with a minimum of supervision.

3) I know that when I train you to do the job, you'll be able to learn the material.

4) You're able to put up with some of the BS that's seen everywhere in the world, without just walking away.

etc. etc... There are plenty of things "a degree" tells me - And that doesn't mean those things aren't true of someone without a degree, but there's no way for me to tell before I hire you. If I'm paying enough to make this an attractive job and I get enough applicants with degrees, it does not make any sense for me to spend the extra time, effort, and money on you to see if you can do the job, when I already have plenty of applicants who I already know can do the job.

And that's why I'm back in school. I kind of doubt I'm going to be an electrical engineer after I graduate - But I'll be positioning myself to take advantage of many more opportunities.

 

[SkyHog]

Nick,

The answer to that question probably isn't as simple as you'd like.

There *are* things from engineering school that helped a lot when it came to driving a truck. Understanding all of the forces involved is part of why I never slid into a ditch on a snowy/icy day, for example. The combination of what I learned in college plus a certain amount of learned skill in the truck combined to make me a much better truck driver than many others.

Now, let's say I want to start a company doing specialized hauling - For example, pulling jet engines from the GE Aircraft Engines plant in Cincinnati to Boeing in Everett. Am I gonna hire random CDL holders? Heck no. Are there a lot of engineering-degree-holding truck drivers? Probably not, but there are certainly some... And they'd be on the top of my list. I'd probably still need more drivers than had degrees, but they'd have to prove to me that they had acquired the knowledge, skill, and judgement required to be trusted with hauling multi-million dollar loads through some pretty unforgiving terrain.

Now, if I'm going to attract degree holders to the job - I'm gonna have to pay more, and treat them well.



Nobody offers degrees in underwater basket weaving. That's a joke, son! There are many degrees that I consider worthless in terms of actually using your major knowledge after college, but the fact that you completed ANY degree does mean several things:

1) You have obtained some more advanced knowledge in math, english, the arts, science, and yes, even cultural diversity.

2) Because of that base level of knowledge that everyone must gain to get a college degree, I know that you are capable of completing tasks on your own with a minimum of supervision.

3) I know that when I train you to do the job, you'll be able to learn the material.

4) You're able to put up with some of the BS that's seen everywhere in the world, without just walking away.

etc. etc... There are plenty of things "a degree" tells me - And that doesn't mean those things aren't true of someone without a degree, but there's no way for me to tell before I hire you. If I'm paying enough to make this an attractive job and I get enough applicants with degrees, it does not make any sense for me to spend the extra time, effort, and money on you to see if you can do the job, when I already have plenty of applicants who I already know can do the job.

And that's why I'm back in school. I kind of doubt I'm going to be an electrical engineer after I graduate - But I'll be positioning myself to take advantage of many more opportunities.

I know there is no UBW degree. But there is a degree in University Studies, Liberal Arts, Professional Pilot, Auto Mechanic, etc.

You can prove everything you talked about regarding self study and BS through job history and longevity.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

What I have found is the degree really makes a difference in management. Also, owning my own business, the MBA made a big difference to investors and lenders; most of whom also had at least an undergraduate and many had graduate degrees. When raising money through securities offerings, being a general partner, that also gave folks confidence.

It develops study and research habits which have really helped me. My Son recently took neuro science. Talked about how the brain develops and adjusts to stimulation. I used to hate to read. Over they years that has changed and I read almost all day and here I am reading and writing at night. The brain adopts to how it needs to function. Developing reading/writing skills early can help throughout life. Life is a learning experience. I'm continuously learning more. Those that stop, really get off the boat and are at a disadvantage.

There are places it doesn't matter as far as actual job performance, but it may matter to the folks supervising you and to folks like described above. I had a couple folks open up conversations about professors I had. They may have just been confirming things, but it creates a bond that helps.

Not everyone needs a degree and it wasn't the actual degree that got me where I am, but the process I went through in the learning experience.

Best,

Dave

 

[jesse]

If I'm paying enough to make this an attractive job and I get enough applicants with degrees, it does not make any sense for me to spend the extra time, effort, and money on you to see if you can do the job, when I already have plenty of applicants who I already know can do the job.

And that's why I'm back in school. I kind of doubt I'm going to be an electrical engineer after I graduate - But I'll be positioning myself to take advantage of many more opportunities.

I assure you Kent you'll be highly disappointed if you think a degree means you can KNOW someone can do the job. There are plenty of people sliding through college that never learned a damn thing and are no more motivated than anyone else. There are piles of CS majors that can't code themselves through FizzBuzz.

I do agree that there is value in education. But closing your eyes to those that don't have the formal piece of paper will cause you to miss a lot of valuable prospects.

Like anything those with the degrees defend why they're important - those without them say why they arent. Those with two attitude indicators say they're minimum equipment. Those without say you don't need it. Those with two engines say you need them. Those without say you don't. People try to justify whatever they have or don't have.

Objectivity is the key.

I never really had the opportunity to make college a realistic option. I needed to move out, I needed to make money to live, and I didn't have anyone around me that truly supported education. I've spent most of my life learning and very little of that has been in a classroom. The time most kids spent having fun I spent teaching myself. My self-education allowed me to get somewhere in life, whereas my siblings without it are collecting food stamps or hanging out in jail.

Fast forward a few years later in life and it simply doesn't make any financial sense for me. A "formal" education is expensive, provides nothing I can't teach myself for free, and would limit my ability to make money for many years. I certainly would not advance in income from the education. If someone did not want to hire me because I did not have a degree I would not want to work for them. It's a good indicator for myself in judging employers.

Step back, realize everyone's situation is different, and take that into consideration while hiring or else you'll do yourself a serious disfavor.

 

[John Baker]

Many years ago, 1964 to be exact, the company I worked for ran an ad looking to hire one person for a minimum wage job, to start. When I got to work the morning after the ad had run in the evening paper, there was a line of over 100 people waiting for our store to open.

My assistant manger and I conferred about just how in heck we were going to select just one person from that throng of people. I had never experienced a situation like that before, so I was somewhat freaking out. It was a real "Oh ****" moment.

Joe, my assistant manger, wadded up a sheet of writing paper and tossed it out on the floor several yards from where the line would be inside the store. He said whoever picks that up, hire them.

It wasn't until around lunch time when a young fellow walked out of the line and picked up the paper. His name was Bill Anderson. Bill got the job, and within just a year, he was managing his own store. He was clean cut, he turned out to be well educated, and a very hard worker.

There are other ways to find good people.

John

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I assure you Kent you'll be highly disappointed if you think a degree means you can KNOW someone can do the job.

Whether anyone can actually do the job remains to be seen - The degree is merely a strong indicator of success. There are those with degrees who will turn out to be worthless (ask me sometime about the guy who got a 4.0 GPA on his engineering degree from Marquette) and there are those without even a high school diploma who will do great.

However, the chances are that on average, the one with the degree will do better than the one without the diploma. If I'm hiring someone I don't know, and there are a ton of applicants, I probably can't spend the time to find out whether the one without the diploma is any good. Simple fact of life...

There are plenty of people sliding through college that never learned a damn thing and are no more motivated than anyone else. There are piles of CS majors that can't code themselves through FizzBuzz.

Actually, most of the worthless CS types can't hack the math required for a CS degree and they switch to (and graduate with a degree in) MIS instead. The CS majors I know who stick with it are generally top-tier geeks.

Like anything those with the degrees defend why they're important - those without them say why they arent. Those with two attitude indicators say they're minimum equipment. Those without say you don't need it. Those with two engines say you need them. Those without say you don't. People try to justify whatever they have or don't have.

Agreed... But I'm kind of in the middle. I've been the guy without a degree for a long time - And I've ended up in a truck because it's really hard to find a job without a degree. Will I magically be a better person when I have it? Heck no. But I'll have an easier time finding a job.

If someone did not want to hire me because I did not have a degree I would not want to work for them. It's a good indicator for myself in judging employers.

Believe me, I don't like it any more than you do. But unless you know somebody, it's REALLY hard to get a job at a good employer too. And just because they use a degree as a "filter" for applicants doesn't mean that they're bad people or that it's a bad place to work. One of the places I would still like to work someday is a GREAT place to work, which is why they have so many applicants when they have open positions, which is why they end up looking for people with degrees for many of those positions... And I'm just saying that I don't hold it against them.

Joe, my assistant manger, wadded up a sheet of writing paper and tossed it out on the floor several yards from where the line would be inside the store. He said whoever picks that up, hire them.

There are other ways to find good people.

Love it!

 

[Dave Siciliano]

John: That's a great story.

Kent, I'm proud you're going back. That's what I did. Went back in my late 30s and early 40s for the reasons you stated. I always was taking some kind of professional development or other course. Several times, I found I knew just as much as someone else, but didn't have a degree and they were promoted over me. In large organizations, it was much more structured and above some level, a degree was requisite.

Jesse: the career journey and life is much longer than we think when younger. Some of us are sprinters and come out of the gate fast. Some marathoners and hit our pace over a longer period of time, but just kept going. I didn't come out of the gate fast, but caught up and past most folks that did. One doesn't have to have a degree to be successful, but life being a continuous learning process is essential to long term success.

Wonderful discussion. Happy to see y'all kicking this around.

Kent, my Son went back to school and is in an EE program here at UTD. I'll have to link you up sometime so you can exchange pocket protectors etc. <g>.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ghery]

Thanks, Nick. Guess I'll just stay out of that lane.

As for Nick's ageist remarks - y'know, some of the "old people" as you put it, have been dealing with technology most of their lives. In fact, they invented that technoloy.

I've been messing with computers since 1969. Yeah, I'm old, but the technology doesn't bother me. The stupidity of the programming of the automated checkout stands does.

Kent, my Son went back to school and is in an EE program here at UTD. I'll have to link you up sometime so you can exchange pocket protectors etc. <g>.

Best,

Dave

Yeah, but has he learned how to run a calculator whose batteries never die and whose display hybrid never quits? It's called a slide rule. And I know exactly where mine is. Yeah, I'm an old geek.

 

[SkyHog]

Whether anyone can actually do the job remains to be seen - The degree is merely a strong indicator of success. There are those with degrees who will turn out to be worthless (ask me sometime about the guy who got a 4.0 GPA on his engineering degree from Marquette) and there are those without even a high school diploma who will do great.

However, the chances are that on average, the one with the degree will do better than the one without the diploma. If I'm hiring someone I don't know, and there are a ton of applicants, I probably can't spend the time to find out whether the one without the diploma is any good. Simple fact of life...



Actually, most of the worthless CS types can't hack the math required for a CS degree and they switch to (and graduate with a degree in) MIS instead. The CS majors I know who stick with it are generally top-tier geeks.



Agreed... But I'm kind of in the middle. I've been the guy without a degree for a long time - And I've ended up in a truck because it's really hard to find a job without a degree. Will I magically be a better person when I have it? Heck no. But I'll have an easier time finding a job.



Believe me, I don't like it any more than you do. But unless you know somebody, it's REALLY hard to get a job at a good employer too. And just because they use a degree as a "filter" for applicants doesn't mean that they're bad people or that it's a bad place to work. One of the places I would still like to work someday is a GREAT place to work, which is why they have so many applicants when they have open positions, which is why they end up looking for people with degrees for many of those positions... And I'm just saying that I don't hold it against them.



Love it!

You're making the exact same arguments I made when I decided to go back to school. Now that I'm almost finished, here's the deal: Its just as much a waste of time now as it was before. Except now, no one can deny you an opportunity because of a lack of a degree.

So is it worth $40K or so? No. I haven't learned one ******ned thing in school since the 11th grade except how to do less work and get more credit for it.

 

[Everskyward]

Skills are what's truly important above all else.

Here is where I think you are wrong, especially from an employers point of view. Technical skills are necessary, however you can be the best [insert career field here] in the world but if you can't take direction and play well with others you're not going to get along very well in most companies. You can think this is right or wrong but it's the way I have found it to be through observation.

 

[SCCutler]

Here is where I think you are wrong, especially from an employers point of view. Technical skills are necessary, however you can be the best [insert career field here] in the world but if you can't take direction and play well with others you're not going to get along very well in most companies. You can think this is right or wrong but it's the way I have found it to be through observation.

Wise woman to be so young!

 

[Everskyward]

Wise woman to be so young!

Haha Spike. Even though I've never grown up I know that I am old enough to be your older sister.

 

[Mason]

Here is where I think you are wrong, especially from an employers point of view. Technical skills are necessary, however you can be the best [insert career field here] in the world but if you can't take direction and play well with others you're not going to get along very well in most companies. You can think this is right or wrong but it's the way I have found it to be through observation.

As a hiring manager I found I could hire folks with people-skills and teach them the technical stuff, but not the other way around. It was darn near impossible to take someone who was raised without interpersonal skills and teach them how to act around customers, peers, and bosses.

 

[jhausch]

Kent,

OOC, What do you hope to do when you have your EE? What sort of job are you looking for and what interests you in the EE field?

-Jim

Whether anyone can actually do the job remains to be seen - The degree is merely a strong indicator of success. There are those with degrees who will turn out to be worthless (ask me sometime about the guy who got a 4.0 GPA on his engineering degree from Marquette) and there are those without even a high school diploma who will do great.

However, the chances are that on average, the one with the degree will do better than the one without the diploma. If I'm hiring someone I don't know, and there are a ton of applicants, I probably can't spend the time to find out whether the one without the diploma is any good. Simple fact of life...



Actually, most of the worthless CS types can't hack the math required for a CS degree and they switch to (and graduate with a degree in) MIS instead. The CS majors I know who stick with it are generally top-tier geeks.



Agreed... But I'm kind of in the middle. I've been the guy without a degree for a long time - And I've ended up in a truck because it's really hard to find a job without a degree. Will I magically be a better person when I have it? Heck no. But I'll have an easier time finding a job.



Believe me, I don't like it any more than you do. But unless you know somebody, it's REALLY hard to get a job at a good employer too. And just because they use a degree as a "filter" for applicants doesn't mean that they're bad people or that it's a bad place to work. One of the places I would still like to work someday is a GREAT place to work, which is why they have so many applicants when they have open positions, which is why they end up looking for people with degrees for many of those positions... And I'm just saying that I don't hold it against them.



Love it!

 

[Maxmosbey]

You're making the exact same arguments I made when I decided to go back to school. Now that I'm almost finished, here's the deal: Its just as much a waste of time now as it was before. Except now, no one can deny you an opportunity because of a lack of a degree.

So is it worth $40K or so? No. I haven't learned one ******ned thing in school since the 11th grade except how to do less work and get more credit for it.

That is really too bad. Your problem is that you are getting an education for the wrong reason. It is no surprise that you are not getting anything out of it. Kind of a waste of time in your case. Besides, who really needs an education to sell booze out of the trunk of a car?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You're making the exact same arguments I made when I decided to go back to school. Now that I'm almost finished, here's the deal: Its just as much a waste of time now as it was before. Except now, no one can deny you an opportunity because of a lack of a degree.

So is it worth $40K or so? No. I haven't learned one ******ned thing in school since the 11th grade except how to do less work and get more credit for it.

Well, there's a couple problems there. Either you majored in something that didn't interest you, or you didn't try to get something out of it.

Hint: What you get out of it *isn't* always what they tell you they're teaching you.

 

[Henning]

As a hiring manager I found I could hire folks with people-skills and teach them the technical stuff, but not the other way around. It was darn near impossible to take someone who was raised without interpersonal skills and teach them how to act around customers, peers, and bosses.

Amen, in the yacht industry I find that all too true as well. That's one of the main problems with crewing up a boat is to find someone who who has service skills as well as seamanship, they aren't a common match.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Kent,

OOC, What do you hope to do when you have your EE? What sort of job are you looking for and what interests you in the EE field?

Well, there's a multitude of things I would enjoy, and I've had a multitude of ideas over the years. Mostly my interests lie in things that I would use - I wanted to make a better remote starter for my car, for example (and I did a rudimentary one as a project in my Microprocessors class), and working with avionics would be cool.

I enjoy solving problems, and I enjoy creating good user interfaces (and darn near everything has one, and more companies need to realize that). Whether the problems are design problems or troubleshooting doesn't matter. I also thrive under pressure - Dunno why, but I often do my best work and enjoy it the most then.

What I would REALLY like, is to have a job that combined that sort of technical problem-solving with a need to travel that could be done via GA. "Field Service Engineer" type thing.

Or, there might be something else out there that would be really sweet, and I don't even know it exists yet. I'm always open to new opportunities.

 

[fgcason]

Here is where I think you are wrong, especially from an employers point of view. Technical skills are necessary, however you can be the best [insert career field here] in the world but if you can't take direction and play well with others you're not going to get along very well in most companies. You can think this is right or wrong but it's the way I have found it to be through observation.

It goes both ways. There are people with PhD's that can't take direction or play well with others too. Most of the interviews and contract jobs I've done seem to be more of them checking on whether I can get along and function in their environment more than whether I know the information which is a given by the time I walk through the door. They discuss the information and skills however they're looking for compatibility.

My point is that educationally for the actual skills themselves, the individual who learned the material sitting in a formal classroom and paying money to do so is no better than the individual who had the same books and learned the same material while sitting in the forest by a stream. Sometimes the individual in the forest is actually better due to personal motivation to learn the material instead of studying specifically for the exam or taking the class because they had to in order to get the diploma. Unless the person knows someone inside that's doing the actual hiring, the 'degree required' filter will always reject the individual who didn't have spiders trying to get their lunch box even if that person is far more qualified and better suited socially for the opening.

I'm not sure what kind of other filter they could use to select non degree individuals. There are however lots of extremely skilled and very compatible people out there flipping hamburgers or less that are being passed over for poorly qualified wackos that on occasion walks in with a gun..and they're getting paid good money to do it.

 

[jhausch]

What I would REALLY like, is to have a job that combined that sort of technical problem-solving with a need to travel that could be done via GA. "Field Service Engineer" type thing.

Or, there might be something else out there that would be really sweet, and I don't even know it exists yet. I'm always open to new opportunities.

As you probably know, finding a company that will allow you to use your license for transportation will be difficult (unfortunately)

Bucyrus and P&H always seem to be hiring field service guys, but I think the worldwide travel to exotic places like the Alberta Oil Sands is why they go through them.

I wonder if anyone uses a list of private contractors for field service? That might be a possibility.

Have you started looking/interviewing yet?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Have you looked at internships Kent? My Son finds several of them interesting and it gives you a glimpse into a company, what it's doing and it's people. The ones he's looking at all pay for the summer.

Best,

Dave

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As you probably know, finding a company that will allow you to use your license for transportation will be difficult (unfortunately)

Well... I'm more of a small-company kind of guy anyway, and the chances seem to be better at the small ones than the big ones.

Have you started looking/interviewing yet?

Not really. While I *think* I'll probably be done in December, I'm taking a much more leisurely approach this time - I may decide to take a few extra classes or even add on a second degree in Computer Engineering or something. So, I probably won't start seriously looking until I'm finished or very close to it.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Amen, in the yacht industry I find that all too true as well. That's one of the main problems with crewing up a boat is to find someone who who has service skills as well as seamanship, they aren't a common match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUipWNw0new

 

[John Baker]

For small businesses, such as mine, it is, under current conditions, not feasible to hire anyone, even at minimum wage. The employee that I laid off in January was costing me in excess of 50K per year when I include the health insurance, my share of the taxes, vacations, and sick pay.

There was a time when all of the above was easily affordable, but no longer, and certainly not in any foreseeable future.

For America to get its population working again, our pay expectations, and laws governing them, are going to have to undergo some serious modifications. Governments can not afford the largess that through union guidance, has raised their salaries and benefits, especially retirement packages to unprecedented levels. This same thing has occurred in most of the privates sector as well. The problem is, no one wants to pay for American made products, or services, including government services.

Most all of our purchases we make are for products made outside our shores, there is very little keeping the American dollar, in America. Until those products become unaffordable, the American worker will also continue to be unaffordable . That includes both sectors, public and private. There just is no money to pay all these people. The money that does get into the pockets of citizens, is all going to end up in the vaults of foreign nations.

Until it is cheaper to hire Americans, we will continue to hire Chinese and Mexicans. In other words, our salary level has to become lower than theirs if we want to put Americans back to work. We are kind of stuck on this issue though. We have minimum wage laws that have been put in place so that the public sector can have an idea of how much money they can expect for budgeting purposes each month.

Until union demands are brought under control or eliminated, along with minimum wage laws, insurance laws, taxes on employees, our work forces will continue on it's downward spiral, in all sectors, including public.

We are heading toward becoming a third world work force, where many of our workers are paid "under the table". The gray economy is growing while the legal economy is shrinking.

John

 

[AuntPeggy]

You're making the exact same arguments I made when I decided to go back to school. Now that I'm almost finished, here's the deal: Its just as much a waste of time now as it was before. Except now, no one can deny you an opportunity because of a lack of a degree.

So is it worth $40K or so? No. I haven't learned one ******ned thing in school since the 11th grade except how to do less work and get more credit for it.

Sorry about that for you. Hope for the best for you, too. My education has netted me much more that I spent on it. And, I love to learn.

 

[SkyHog]

Sorry about that for you. Hope for the best for you, too. My education has netted me much more that I spent on it. And, I love to learn.

I love to learn too. It helps me advance myself.

And truthfully, the degree will net me more than the money it cost as well, in income from shortsighted employers that only care about the existence of the degree. But that should never be the point behind the degree. I should be learning something that is taught in the classroom.

Because college is the "Must have" thing now, there's a lot of stupid students in every class, and the class is taught down to their level. That means those of us that actually understand what's going on are left with no new knowledge at the end of the class, unless we self studied. And that is consistent across many different degree programs and schools (I've gone to UNM, CNM (a comm college), Columbia (for a cont. ed program), and University of Phoenix, and every single one is the same.

Guess what? I can self study without paying a school for the privilege of sitting in a classroom helping someone that doesn't belong in there understand something simple (essentially, helping my future competition stumble through school long enough to get a piece of paper that says they're as qualified as I am).

 

[SkyHog]

Well, there's a couple problems there. Either you majored in something that didn't interest you, or you didn't try to get something out of it.

I always major in something I care about (started with Aviation, now in Computer Science, with a bunch in between). I always wind up learning on my own outside of school.

Hint: What you get out of it *isn't* always what they tell you they're teaching you.

Why pay someone else so that you can learn on your own time with your own materials? That's the part that doesn't make sense.

 

[denverpilot]

What I would REALLY like, is to have a job that combined that sort of technical problem-solving with a need to travel that could be done via GA. "Field Service Engineer" type thing.

See the recent thread where most of us lamented that the vast majority of companies that might benefit from our GA skills (e.g. We fly ourselves around and don't get reimbursed for it), have banned the practice for perceived risk/liability reasons.

If you want to work as an "FE" as we call 'em, better get used to the commercial human mailing tubes and TSA pat-downs unless you know the owner of the company and they trust your flying skills.

Let me let you in on another "secret" of being an "FE"... the joke in the tech industry is that the FE is the "Appeasement Engineer". Especially if you're the first guy to show up, or one of those poor "4-hour-response-time" guys.

Your social skills are far more important than your technical skills in that role, because you're usually showing up to attempt to reconfigure a product to do something that was never intended that Sales told the customer would work, and explaining what "real Engineering" back at the office will need to do to change the software to make it work. Sometimes this takes months. You're leaving tomorrow, so... "What would you like it to do in the meantime?"

If you want to go to customer sites and help them build "nifty things", FE isn't the gig you're looking for. Being a consultant or integrator is.

On the flip side, Salespeople will never stop selling things to people that don't work that way, and there will never be a shortage of "mop up" required in any tech company, so "FE" is a pretty solid job, since people with families burn out quickly and don't want to travel continuously.

 

[Gary F]

That is really too bad. Your problem is that you are getting an education for the wrong reason. It is no surprise that you are not getting anything out of it. Kind of a waste of time in your case. Besides, who really needs an education to sell booze out of the trunk of a car?

I agree that some people seek education form the wrong reasons although I don't believe that you are qualified to make that decision for anybody other than yourself. I think the reference to selling booze is a cheap shot. I'll give him credit for starting a business in these difficult times and it might even keep a few impaired drivers off the road.

 

[Maxmosbey]

I agree that some people seek education form the wrong reasons although I don't believe that you are qualified to make that decision for anybody other than yourself. I think the reference to selling booze is a cheap shot. I'll give him credit for starting a business in these difficult times and it might even keep a few impaired drivers off the road.

Yea, I think it is too. I think that Nick can take it though. I'll bet he isn't losing any sleep over it. I don't know. If I hurt his feelings, he can let me know and I'll make it right with him.

 

[SkyHog]

Yea, I think it is too. I think that Nick can take it though. I'll bet he isn't losing any sleep over it. I don't know. If I hurt his feelings, he can let me know and I'll make it right with him.

I took it as an oversimplification of what I'm try to do. No offense taken, per se, but I do truly hope that you don't really see what I'm trying to do that way (although, if you do, you're right, I won't lose sleep over it).

To answer your question earlier, starting a business is probably one of the places that a college degree would have been helpful, because business administration is not one of the things I described as being done outside of school (unless you happen to be among a group of friends that have done the same thing). I stumbled through my last 2 businesses pretty badly, and learned a lot by doing so. This time, I spent a considerable amount of time and money on having someone else review a lot of what I wanted to do first, which could have likely been saved if I had gone to a business school.

Luckily, though, you don't have to submit a resume to someone to start your own business, or I'd probably have been denied.

 

[SkyHog]

I agree that some people seek education form the wrong reasons although I don't believe that you are qualified to make that decision for anybody other than yourself. I think the reference to selling booze is a cheap shot. I'll give him credit for starting a business in these difficult times and it might even keep a few impaired drivers off the road.

If I'm successful, this will be a fun and responsible business that will benefit the community. If I'm a failure, I'll have even more experience in how not to start a business, and the next time, I'll get even closer to success. That's the best I can hope for (although, right now, I'm extremely confident in our business model).

 

[wsuffa]

For small businesses, such as mine, it is, under current conditions, not feasible to hire anyone, even at minimum wage. The employee that I laid off in January was costing me in excess of 50K per year when I include the health insurance, my share of the taxes, vacations, and sick pay.

There was a time when all of the above was easily affordable, but no longer, and certainly not in any foreseeable future.

For America to get its population working again, our pay expectations, and laws governing them, are going to have to undergo some serious modifications. Governments can not afford the largess that through union guidance, has raised their salaries and benefits, especially retirement packages to unprecedented levels. This same thing has occurred in most of the privates sector as well. The problem is, no one wants to pay for American made products, or services, including government services.

Most all of our purchases we make are for products made outside our shores, there is very little keeping the American dollar, in America. Until those products become unaffordable, the American worker will also continue to be unaffordable . That includes both sectors, public and private. There just is no money to pay all these people. The money that does get into the pockets of citizens, is all going to end up in the vaults of foreign nations.

Until it is cheaper to hire Americans, we will continue to hire Chinese and Mexicans. In other words, our salary level has to become lower than theirs if we want to put Americans back to work. We are kind of stuck on this issue though. We have minimum wage laws that have been put in place so that the public sector can have an idea of how much money they can expect for budgeting purposes each month.

Until union demands are brought under control or eliminated, along with minimum wage laws, insurance laws, taxes on employees, our work forces will continue on it's downward spiral, in all sectors, including public.

We are heading toward becoming a third world work force, where many of our workers are paid "under the table". The gray economy is growing while the legal economy is shrinking.

John

Unfortunately, it's never that simple.

Transportation costs and quality (or, more specifically, the cost to replace defective items) increase the costs for goods and services off-shore. Services that can be provided remotely (help desk, programming, reading x-rays, etc) are subject to data and telecom costs which remain comparatively low (but quality of help desk/offshore call centers is a service quality issue).

When economists speak of "what we need are jobs, it doesn't matter whether it's private or public" miss the fact that at SOME point public employment gets to be such a large percentage that the taxes on said wages cannot support the much higher salaries paid. Entropy applies to tax/public employment - and there is some point where even "tax the rich" can't make up the difference. I'm sure that point can be calculated within an order of magnitude by economists - I don't know where the tipping point is, and frankly, that's a discussion better had in Spin Zone. Setting spending/taxing priorities is a political matter.

Yes, pensions are an issue. Most employers have eliminated defined benefit plans. Even the Feds jettisoned new DB plans years ago. But some state and local jurisdictions still employ them. Unions are a factor, but not THE deciding factor in that equation. And yes, taxpayers pay for those pensions, either directly or indirectly (direct payments to the investment plans/annuities or by reducing employee pay).... all compensation, direct and indirect, for public employees comes from the tax base.

So the decision to create a job here vs offshore is a factor of transportation, ease of management, direct labor, indirect labor (pension/benefits), taxes, availability of needed skill sets, social/moral factors (child labor, "green" initiatives, energy, etc), regulatory requirements, resources, and other costs that enter into the equation. For example, there's a perception that certain parts of Appalachia and the the deep south would be "low wage" areas - yet one might not find sufficient levels of the skill sets necessary in those locations. This inextricably leads back to education & other cultural factors.

I won't even get into the fact that some companies in some industries have folks on the payroll that are effectively "retired in place"......

Like you, I've started and owned small businesses. I've had to "rightsize" companies, and I've done merger integrations that have resulted in revamping the payroll. None of it is easy, and there really are no simple answers.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Because college is the "Must have" thing now, there's a lot of stupid students in every class, and the class is taught down to their level. That means those of us that actually understand what's going on are left with no new knowledge at the end of the class, unless we self studied. And that is consistent across many different degree programs and schools (I've gone to UNM, CNM (a comm college), Columbia (for a cont. ed program), and University of Phoenix, and every single one is the same.

IMHO, U of Phoenix, ITT Tech, etc. are kind of a joke.

I'm also realizing that I have the luxury of being from a state with an excellent public K-12 school system (highest graduation rates in the nation) AND an excellent university system (with 13 4-year campuses and over 170,000 students). Yeah, there are a few "stupid people" but they quickly get overwhelmed and either quit on their own or get booted out for poor grades. Majoring in engineering helps as well, since the "stupid people" never make it past the first semester of Calculus. But, I have learned a lot, and I get pushed to learn rather than being dragged back by a roomful of "stupid people."

I always major in something I care about (started with Aviation, now in Computer Science, with a bunch in between). I always wind up learning on my own outside of school.

If you're a good student and you like what you're doing, you'll learn on your own outside of school as well as in school.

If you want to work as an "FE" as we call 'em, better get used to the commercial human mailing tubes and TSA pat-downs unless you know the owner of the company and they trust your flying skills.

Like I said, I'm a small-company guy. If the owner (or at least the Head Dude In Charge) doesn't know me, I'm not sure I want to work there.

If you want to go to customer sites and help them build "nifty things", FE isn't the gig you're looking for. Being a consultant or integrator is.

That'd be OK too - But I do not want to do sales, unless I get to sell something that is just completely bad-ass cool. I tell people I'm the world's worst salesman - I can't sell something that I don't truly believe in myself. I can sell my flying club, I can sell ForeFlight, I can't sell Joe's Useless Widget.

 

[SkyHog]

IMHO, U of Phoenix, ITT Tech, etc. are kind of a joke.

They are the exact same joke that your school and every other university in the country is. You go to class, and you learn by reading books. Every once in a while, you'll get that great teacher that can lecture on real life, and that is beneficial, but beyond that, you're learning from a book.

That same book is available outside of universities. If anything, ITT Tech is a better school than any other because they only employ people that work in the field they're teaching about. That gives more opportunities to learn from the teacher.

I'm also realizing that I have the luxury of being from a state with an excellent public K-12 school system (highest graduation rates in the nation) AND an excellent university system (with 13 4-year campuses and over 170,000 students). Yeah, there are a few "stupid people" but they quickly get overwhelmed and either quit on their own or get booted out for poor grades. Majoring in engineering helps as well, since the "stupid people" never make it past the first semester of Calculus. But, I have learned a lot, and I get pushed to learn rather than being dragged back by a roomful of "stupid people."

Kent, I mean no offense when I say this, but if you're learning anything in college that you couldn't have learned on your own more effectively, then your K-12 system is not good, it is leaving students with a lack of the most basic fundamentals of education: Reading and Understanding.

If you're a good student and you like what you're doing, you'll learn on your own outside of school as well as in school.

So if a teacher is teaching things that you already know (for example, in programming languages, learning how to do basic I/O stuff for an entire semester because a group of students never bothered to self study), you're a bad student, because you didn't have the opportunity to learn? Or are students expected to forget what they know, go back to the lowest common denominator, and then learn just so they can be "good?"

The only thing I'll give most schools is that they'll put you in the right mindset to find out what you need to learn. But you can get that from experience too.