Keeping people employed?

SkyHog said:
You touched on part 2 of my opinion that I've said before:

High School Diploma as a "minimum requirement" for many jobs is silly. Most jobs that currently require a college degree shouldn't require that either.

Honestly, why does a janitor need a high school diploma? Or a car mechanic for that matter? Why does a computer operator need to have a degree? Why does a computer repairman need a degree?

None of those make sense, it drives education requirements up, and it drives pay up. It also leaves those behind that have the requisite knowledge and skill, but lack the education that they "need."
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ask your self this, why does the NAVY require you to have a 4 year degree to be a pilot?

there are plenty of young pilots who can't enter the navy's pilot programs because they can't afford the 4 year degree, not because they are too stupid.
 
Tom-D said:
ask your self this, why does the NAVY require you to have a 4 year degree to be a pilot?

there are plenty of young pilots who can't enter the navy's pilot programs because they can't afford the 4 year degree, not because they are too stupid.
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I don't know. I also don't know why any officer in the United States Military requires a degree.
 
Tom-D said:
ask your self this, why does the NAVY require you to have a 4 year degree to be a pilot?
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They (the Navy) can do that when there are more qualified candidates than they need.
 
Julius Caesar didn't have a high school diploma either. So what? Times change, and the world grows more complex.
 
January 1st, of this year, I had to lay off my last employee, she had worked hard for me for over twelve years. I went through all my savings, and my line of credit, foolishly hoping things would get better, they have not, or at least not enough for a 40 grand + employee.

I got a letter today from a major supplier for a line of imported picture frames that have become very popular in my store, the reason, they were cheap. an 8"X 10" frame, with glass, retailed for $10.00.

The letter announced a more than double my cost price increase, with the stated reason being the world wide devaluation of the dollar and and all the associated price repercussions. That same frame now has a retail price of $21.00, that is providing I wanted to continue with the same mark up. I had being thinking about increasing it due to my assorted cost of doing business increases.

I have no choice but to discontinue selling that line of frames, at least for now. The costs of doing business are rising on all fronts, from goods to taxes and utilities. Our government is printing more money to cover it's assorted costs, causing prices to rise on all products that we import.

Soon it will be cheaper to hire American workers than to import product. This will put more people back into the work force, but at substantially lower wages, thereby cutting into the governments tax base, forcing them to print more dollars. Much like a dog chasing it's own tail.

We are heading toward serious inflation, during a down economy. Things are going to get ugly.

John
 
John Baker said:
Soon it will be cheaper to hire American workers than to import product.
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I hope so.

I hope we can get higher quality products than the crap that is imported.
 
except for the problem that a lot of manufacturing started going overseas due to poor quality here. ( remember cars in the 70 and 80s ? ) Maybe things will be different this time around.
 
Bob Noel said:
I hope so.

I hope we can get higher quality products than the crap that is imported.
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Actually, the reverse is more factual. American workers, at least in the small manufacturing sector, are for the most part, unskilled and are expected to use old, outdated machinery.

A framing shop back east needed to fill an order for 300 6"X6" cheap frames. She ordered them from an American manufacturer who required payment in advance before he would produce the frames. Most of what she received was so shoddy, she had to fill the corners and re-finish them. Over a hundred of them were completely unusable. The manufacturer would not replace them, she was stuck.

Chinese, Malaysian, Mexican,Taiwan, South American frame products are considerably superior to U.S. made, at least in the lower price spectrum.

We have a long way to go before we can beat them in quality or price.

John
 
John Baker said:
Actually, the reverse is more factual. American workers, at least in the small manufacturing sector, are for the most part, unskilled and are expected to use old, outdated machinery.

A framing shop back east needed to fill an order for 300 6"X6" cheap frames. She ordered them from an American manufacturer who required payment in advance before he would produce the frames. Most of what she received was so shoddy, she had to fill the corners and re-finish them. Over a hundred of them were completely unusable. The manufacturer would not replace them, she was stuck.

Chinese, Malaysian, Mexican,Taiwan, South American frame products are considerably superior to U.S. made, at least in the lower price spectrum.

We have a long way to go before we can beat them in quality or price.

John
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Check out the quality of plumbing fixtures at home depot or lowes. Then look at the country of origin.

Of course, if the consumer actually thought about the dollar value of buying a quality product and the resulting life cycle cost rather than just the initial purchase price... but then some of the people importing this crap would be out of work.
 
Bob Noel said:
Check out the quality of plumbing fixtures at home depot or lowes. Then look at the country of origin.

Of course, if the consumer actually thought about the dollar value of buying a quality product and the resulting life cycle cost rather than just the initial purchase price... but then some of the people importing this crap would be out of work.
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A lot of times that's a false argument and part of why US can't compete well in making small cheap items. By the time the cheap one falls apart the end user may want a new style anyway. To that end you can say US goods (in the past atleast) are over built. My folks still have the same Sears air compressor for over 20 years. Not used everyday, but enough to maintain tire pressure on every vehicle & bike from the mid 80's through today.

What the US & West Europe builds well is moderate to high priced specialty stuff that has to work the first time every time.
 
Pi1otguy said:
By the time the cheap one falls apart the end user may want a new style anyway.
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It might be nice if the cheap imported crap worked correctly when new.
 
Matthew said:
I thought that was one of the goals of automation: to "increase leisure time".
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Ask any career person in Australia how many days they typically get for "Holiday" and be amazed and jealous...

Job for job it's usually about double what the average American in the same job gets.

A buddy who works for HP over there has over two months of paid time off now and is in a job (working as a contractor to our NSA actually) where it's unlikely he'll ever be laid off or fired.

Good gig if you can get it. By the time he's close to retirement I suspect he'll have about three or maybe even four months off a year plus eligibility for unpaid sabbaticals.

Try finding a U.S. career/professional job with similar perks.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Henry Ford didn't have a high school diploma. He couldn't get a job at Ford Motor Company now if his life depended on it.
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He was also dragged before Congress at one point in his career and asked how someone of his "low education" could be trusted to run one of America's largest companies. He pointed out that while he didn't know all the answers, he had access to people who did. He owned one of the first multi-line desk telephones in the world. And a call from Henry Ford usually didn't go ignored, even if the expert had to drive into town to the Five and Ten to answer it, since they didn't have a telephone of their own.
 
Bob Noel said:
They (the Navy) can do that when there are more qualified candidates than they need.
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I think that's what a lot of companies do. That way they only need to look at 100 resumes instead of 200.

I've been told that having a HS or a college diploma shows that you can stick to something long enough to finish it. That may be true but I think there are other ways you can prove it.
 
John Baker said:
We are heading toward serious inflation, during a down economy. Things are going to get ugly.
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The "Rule of 72" (or more accurately 70...) says that at our current population growth rate in the U.S., (0.9% - which includes natural and immigration) our population will double in approximately 78 years if nothing changes. Twice as many people in one human's lifetime. That includes deaths in that number, and the baby-boomers will put a "blip" in that death number starting now (the beginning of their "death bell curve") and tapering off in about 30 years. Perhaps our growth rate will slow to 0.6%, but it's doubtful we'll ever be negative. (Not replacing ourselves with offspring.)

Try figuring out what that does to raw materials consumption for building things, energy, etc. It'll boggle your brain. It's difficult to factor for monetary policy/inflation when the raw number of people... mouths to feed, clothe, build infrastructure for, and apparently keep in "jobs" is growing exponentially, worldwide.

All we're seeing right now is "wealth redistribution" on a global scale. Some people want it that way. But the big question for businesses is... "What will 13 billion people want and who'll provide it in my lifetime?" The next lifetime will have to figure out the same question for 26 billion people if population growth remains steady.

It's probably not going to, however... population growth peaked in the 1960s (in the U.S. anyway) at roughly 2% and has been on a downward trajectory since. That's probably not a "Bad Thing(TM)" considering how much we feel entitled to consume right now, per person.
 
Back to the automated checkout, I get along fine with them. There is a short learning curve where you have to make sure nothing is close to the scanner. I know that is a huge inconvenience for some people. I'll use either, I will usually go through the lane that has a checker. I won't stand in line too long to do it though. The thing is that I am a social person. I like interacting with people. I look at them when they talk to me. I like to listen to them when they talk to me. I like to smell people around me. I do not like machines, because they do not interact in a social way. That is why I will avoid the machines if I can. On the other hand, whenever someone puts in an automated high tech service of some sort, I feel challenged to master it. So when the automated checkout went in at the grocery store, I couldn't stay away from them until I got it all figured out. Just the way I am I guess.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Why does anyone need a degree? It is the same answer.
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Unless the answer is "Because someone out there overvalues the worth of having spent a **** ton of money on a piece of paper," I don't know what the answer is.

In my eyes, experience and skill trumps degree everyday. I've found that's not necessarily so in many workplaces.
 
Maxmosbey said:
Back to the automated checkout, I get along fine with them.
...
The thing is that I am a social person. I like interacting with people. I look at them when they talk to me. I like to listen to them when they talk to me. I like to smell people around me. I do not like machines, because they do not interact in a social way.
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The opposite of me. Many times I have no desire to talk or otherwise interact with them but for justifying the existence of their position.

SkyHog said:
Unless the answer is "Because someone out there overvalues the worth of having spent a **** ton of money on a piece of paper," I don't know what the answer is.

In my eyes, experience and skill trumps degree everyday. I've found that's not necessarily so in many workplaces.
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I was once told that a degree shows you have the ability to commit to something beginning to end. Sad thing is the return on investment is getting lower for college degrees. What's the point of getting a high paying job if you start out with a small mortgage?
 
Pi1otguy said:
I was once told that a degree shows you have the ability to commit to something beginning to end. Sad thing is the return on investment is getting lower for college degrees. What's the point of getting a high paying job if you start out with a small mortgage?
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In addition to actual knowledge gained, you have demonstrated "sticktoitness" as well as benefited from assumed development in advanced critical thinking skills, research, reporting, and leadership (to name just a few things.)

Are there other routes to achieve the same thing? Sure. Does every job need development in those areas? Arguable. But as an employer needing an employee with those skills, be it a mom and pop store, IBM or the US military why pay to instill the basics when you can find a candidate with a degree?
 
alaskaflyer said:
In addition to actual knowledge gained, you have demonstrated "sticktoitness" as well as benefited from assumed development in advanced critical thinking skills, research, reporting, and leadership (to name just a few things.)
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Back when I was in college, none of those "assumed" things were being taught, as far as I could tell other than maybe research and reporting. Critical thinking was disallowed by way of the mandatory curriculum ("Multicultural Studies" class comes to mind), and Leadership? ROFLMAO. Most of the people in the program couldn't lead their own dog.

The vast majority of students were there to get the "piece of paper" and get out.

alaskaflyer said:
Are there other routes to achieve the same thing? Sure. Does every job need development in those areas? Arguable. But as an employer needing an employee with those skills, be it a mom and pop store, IBM or the US military why pay to instill the basics when you can find a candidate with a degree?
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It's called HARD WORK on the part of the employer when hiring to truly assess individual's skills and background. And few want to do it. It shows more and more at any company that's growing. As the company grows, "policy" has to be tightened again and again to account for what truly, at the very beginning of the "process" were bad hiring decisions.

This is why the cultural feel of a "start up" is vastly different than the same company, hopefully successfully established 5 years later. The people who are attracted to the "start up" feel are often long-gone by then too. They're usually the "leaders" and get fed up with the lowest-common-denominator rules and regulations put on them after a few rounds of bad hiring.

Case in point: I worked for a data-center start-up in the 90s. By the time I was laid off, the rules and regulations surrounding "Who can touch the core routers" was so draconian, it got someone fired. That person had an anti-authority mentality and also a "nothing bad will ever happen to me" mentality and was hired VERY late in the game. A bad hire. He crashed an entire data center's main routers not once, not twice, but three times before they let him go. The rest of us were all incredulous that he would put our LIVELIHOOD on the line like that... but his perspective was not the perspective of a person relying on the start-up to survive to have a paycheck... he thought of the place as "just another data center" and he was just an "employee".

Management did massive damage control with the now VERY angry customers and the place survived this "employee", but it was never the same after that. When 9/11 came along and the Dot-Bomb bubble burst, even though most of us were unhappy to be laid off, we also breathed a sigh of relief that we were being "freed" from the monster we had built and allowed to get "corporatized", to coin a phrase. The place was no longer fun, interesting, nor a challenge for those of us attracted to such things four or five years prior. We all moved on, and the place ran just fine with very little talent until a larger data center company snapped them up, almost 10 years later.

I truly believe when a company starts to put "process" over "people", they start to die as an interesting place to work. It's just a matter of how long it will take for the executives to pump-and-dump or get outsted for someone who will. Especially in tech.
 
Everskyward said:
All you do is press, "skip bagging". Automatic checkout is good. It beats having to listen to someone stumble over my last name all the time. Stupid policy seems to have started at Safeway a number of years ago and is spreading....
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I don't believe I've ever seen that option, or if I have, I didn't understand what it meant. "Skip bagging, crap, how am I going to carry this crap if I skip bagging???!!!''

I'mo look for that option next time. Especially when there is some dumbazz blue hair with a checkbook in the cashier line. What the hell is it about people who pay for groceries with checkbooks that the whole payment process comes as an absolute surprise???

"Ma'am, your total is 103.54"
"Oh, ok. So, now I actually have to pay for what I bought? Gee, I didn't expect that at all. Well, let me rummage through my purse now to find my checkbook. Oh dearie me, do you have a pen? And now who (sic) do I make this out to? And how much did you say it was for???"

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Such people will be executed on sight when I am in charge.
 
When I was in the hiring business, we would get sometimes two hundred applications for ten slots on the hiring list. I would not know a single applicant. Ninety percent looked exactly the same on paper. After a while we started to automatically scrub anyone without at least an associate degree just to get the numbers down. We could not physically or monetarily go through two hundred people. My experience was that the majority of people who applied were just as good as the next. I had my pick of either a highly capable and experienced person with no degree, or a highly capable and experienced person with a degree. Same with promotions. We would have ten motivated and experienced individuals vying for the same promotion. If one without a college education would have stood out, we probably would have promoted that person, but most times they were so equal that we would use the education factor just to eliminate some of the people. What else would you use all things being equal?
 
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denverpilot said:
Back when I was in college, none of those "assumed" things were being taught, as far as I could tell other than maybe research and reporting. Critical thinking was disallowed by way of the mandatory curriculum ("Multicultural Studies" class comes to mind), and Leadership? ROFLMAO. Most of the people in the program couldn't lead their own dog.

The vast majority of students were there to get the "piece of paper" and get out.
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This is what I mean about sticking to it. If someone is able to put up with stupid and useless classes in school and still manage to graduate it's more likely that they will be able to put up with the various amounts of BS which is a part of having a job.
 
Everskyward said:
This is what I mean about sticking to it. If someone is able to put up with stupid and useless classes in school and still manage to graduate it's more likely that they will be able to put up with the various amounts of BS which is a part of having a job.
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I agree with that.
 
Everskyward said:
This is what I mean about sticking to it. If someone is able to put up with stupid and useless classes in school and still manage to graduate it's more likely that they will be able to put up with the various amounts of BS which is a part of having a job.
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Heh, yeah... but isn't it also a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent. The most interesting companies I've worked for weren't run by Harvard MBAs.

Doesn't "culture follow training" to some extent? The places I've worked for that were run by Harvard MBAs were boring, lifeless, and full of "procedures" and little in the way of thought of why employees were motivated (or not motivated) to even want to work for the place.

Most were financially stable, sold every few years to someone else for their "growth" since the bigger company had stopped growing naturally long ago, and just grew revenues every year by buying small growth companies and squeezing the heartbeat right out of them.
 
denverpilot said:
Heh, yeah... but isn't it also a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent. The most interesting companies I've worked for weren't run by Harvard MBAs.

Doesn't "culture follow training" to some extent? The places I've worked for that were run by Harvard MBAs were boring, lifeless, and full of "procedures" and little in the way of thought of why employees were motivated (or not motivated) to even want to work for the place.

Most were financially stable, sold every few years to someone else for their "growth" since the bigger company had stopped growing naturally long ago, and just grew revenues every year by buying small growth companies and squeezing the heartbeat right out of them.
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How many companies run by Harvard MBAs have you worked for?
 
I just read this somewhere recently; Henry Ford was asked to explain at a Congressional hearing, just why he, with his serious lack of formal education, should be trusted to run one of Americas largest companies?

How the academic community has taken over the running of our country, private and public, is beyond me. We really believe that it is wonderful having so many educated idiots running just about everything that touches our lives, in spite of the preponderance of blunders and failures, that occur almost every day. Yet we keep pouring billions of dollars into a bankrupt system who's only goal is to crank out even more of these degreed morons.

Is a degree the only method we have for measuring the worth of a person? If so, how did we come to believe this? Could it be because the academic community has brainwashed us from nursery school to grave, as to just how important they are to us? Could it just be another bureaucracy that has evolved to the point of being unable to deliver on its promises, perpetuating itself at the expense of our nation?

John
 
John Baker said:
I just read this somewhere recently; Henry Ford was asked to explain at a Congressional hearing, just why he, with his serious lack of formal education, should be trusted to run one of Americas largest companies?

How the academic community has taken over the running of our country, private and public, is beyond me. We really believe that it is wonderful having so many educated idiots running just about everything that touches our lives, in spite of the preponderance of blunders and failures, that occur almost every day. Yet we keep pouring billions of dollars into a bankrupt system who's only goal is to crank out even more of these degreed morons.

Is a degree the only method we have for measuring the worth of a person? If so, how did we come to believe this? Could it be because the academic community has brainwashed us from nursery school to grave, as to just how important they are to us? Could it just be another bureaucracy that has evolved to the point of being unable to deliver on its promises, perpetuating itself at the expense of our nation?

John
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That's the point. We need to get back to the point where we can honestly say "You have a degree? You must have learned a lot and are a master at what you do, Mr. Scientist." As it stands, a College Degree is as worthless as a high school diploma used to be, and a high school diploma is as useless as not having a diploma used to be (in some eyes).

Its a nasty path we've gone down.
 
Maxmosbey said:
How many companies run by Harvard MBAs have you worked for?
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At least three. They flock to tech and telecom, I think. Or just growth companies that will make nice targets to be bought.

I'm basically working with and for the same people I started in this industry in 1994. The original company was bought/sold six times since then. Spin offs, re-tread employees coming and going... all that stuff.

"Small world", doesn't even cut it in teleconferencing. Everyone knows everyone at every competitor and every customer. I know their kid's names... etc. It's a small niche inside some VERY big businesses.
 
Does all this mean that anyone who does not posses a degree is worthless, a drain on our society? Or perhaps we need these lowbrow people to perform simple tasks, like digging holes, or totting our stuff for us?

If our educational community could actually educate, that would be one thing, but they do not. We have been bamboozled by a huge, all encompassing bureaucracy that employs millions of people. Due to our economic situation, brought on by the products of that same educational system, they are now almost to the point of rioting in the streets because the people they educated can no longer afford to pay them.

Our nation is falling behind the rest of the world academically. we have produced generations of degreed near do wells. We no longer have a core of trained trades people, all because we have become convinced that a degree, a degree in anything, is more important than knowing how to perform even the most simple idiot work tasks.

We do not want to hire people simply because what we have to select from does not know how to work, at all. They have no comprehension that a company has to get much more than what it pays them, from them.

Then we get angry when we see Mexicans earning money on our sacred soil doing the simple things in life that we are above doing for ourselves, simply because they know how to work.

John
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
How could I mind?

His best buddy (and hero) Thomas Edison was an elementry school dropout btw...
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Being an elementary school dropout is dumb unless you are an incredibly overgifted guy like Edison. He was so far ahead in learning ability that school was far too simple and boring and he probably learned a lot more at home tinkering around.

I knew a guy like that in high school. He seldom paid attention in class and didn't do homework yet he aced everything. Went to work for IBM and made a killing.

On the subject of computers: Could we replace those overpaid politicians with computers? An election would be a series of programming choices. No broken promises, no scandals.
 
We must remember that an elementary school education in those days was the equivalent of a college degree these days.

John
 
I received a letter yesterday from one of my suppliers who imports Chinese made picture frames. The letter was a notification of their new prices, which have more than doubled from just three months ago. The reason stated was the devaluation of the dollar. Keep printing them Mr. President, pretty soon nobody will be able to afford Wall Mart.

An 8"X10" Chinese picture frame, a very well made one, splined miters, beautiful finish, with glass and quality easel back sold for $10.00. It's new price is now $21.00.

Jobs are on their way back to America.

John
 
John Baker said:
Does all this mean that anyone who does not posses a degree is worthless, a drain on our society? Or perhaps we need these lowbrow people to perform simple tasks, like digging holes, or totting our stuff for us?
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Gosh I hope not. I don't have a degree. :)

I do posses a more valuable trait than just about anything else in life though... I'm a persistent cuss.

I'm also frugal to a fault, and learned that there are plenty of "white collar" computer jobs that involve so-called "distasteful" things like travel and on-call duty that some of my more "educated" co-workers grumble about.

I take 2AM on-call duty with a smile and prepare ahead of time so there's never any question about the outcome of a large maintenance or upgrade window not getting the job done.

15 years experience doing it helps, but I've run into the "HR pitched your Resume' into the trash because you didn't have a degree" problem before. Cultivating friendships and long-term business relationships has always fixed that so far... (knock on wood).

Would I like to finish? Sure. It's a time thing at my age. "Stick with it-ness" isn't the problem, it's more the Return On Investment issue for me now.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Being an elementary school dropout is dumb unless you are an incredibly overgifted guy like Edison.
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I assume you mean being an elementary school dropout is dumb today.

80 years ago is a different story, yes?
 
Everskyward said:
I've been told that having a HS or a college diploma shows that you can stick to something long enough to finish it.
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It also realistically proves that the individual just happened to have the funds and resources available at the time to finish it. There's more to brains and reliability than having a degree. If someone doesn't happen to have the money to finish for whatever reason, that doesn't necessarily make them stupid or unreliable. It just means the bank account hit zero or funding was cut off before graduation and the admissions office tossed the student out the door on their head. Some of the most reliable and best workers I've ever run across have never stepped foot onto a college campus mostly due to lack of money or resources to sit in a classroom fulltime for 4-5 years.

That may be true but I think there are other ways you can prove it.
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The trick is to figure out how to keep the people running the filtering system from rejecting the good reliable worker who doesn't have a piece of paper on the wall at home. That's tough to beat when instant reject filter #1 is "degree required." Even if you get past the filter and are proving yourself to be exactly what the company needs, HR can and will still sack you after the hiring due to no degree even if you're completely truthful from the start - BTDT on the receiving end.

Then again I can see the reasoning behind using a degree as a filter. If you're the guy in HR with 4500 applications sitting on your desk for one job opening, how do you filter out then 4490 blatant rejects and get to the 10 good ones by the day after tomorrow using a generic application form? Any filter is better than none at that point.



Skills are what's truly important above all else. Whether you learn those skills in a formal classroom or while sitting on the end of a log in the forest is of no significance. ...Well, it is until you try to get someone else to hire you.


<--- self employed for multiple reasons.
 
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