Jumpers Away

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JasonM

Pattern Altitude
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JM
I have been hearing a lot of calls lately on the radio stating jumpers 14K and below and various airports. I realize they have the right-of-way, but how hard are they to spot? I haven't been close to that situation yet, but apparently I need to be cautious as it happens all around me. One thing that I was thinking about was, what if there was a VFR plane that didn't have a radio and he was in the pattern and didn't hear about or see the jumpers about to fall down on/near him.
 
Para jumps at airports should be listed in the AF/D, hopefully the nordo guy in the pattern checked the book before flying. Granted he would not hear that call, but he should be looking for them.

Falling meatballs are hard to see until the parachute opens.
The jump master should be clearing the airspace below, and sometimes with help of a ground observer in the landing zone.
 
My airport has tons of skydiving activity i almost feel like sometimes i can go right into them.. its really dangerous you never think as a risk of going skydiving that you can be hit by a plane thats just cruising around i never did this, was way before i got into flying but now flying i think its a real risk for both pilot and sky diver. You should know in that area you are in that they are doing it. Or ask someone to point it out to you.
 
There are often jumpers a few miles to the East of KSDM, and it's usually not very hard to pick them up because of the movements and brightly colored canopies.
 
In a high wing aircraft C150 for instance, jumpers are extremely difficult to see. Also, the fall time with parachute open can be very long -- often the Jumpers Away radio call is one-time, so if you happen to be listening to AWOS at that moment you will miss it.

It is so dangerous that I moved my C150 from Sullivan, Mo (KUUV) to Festus, MO KFES so as not to be in the neighbor because of the frequent Sky Divers flights.

In addition, the Twin Otter taking them up would sometimes take off from the intersection and land in which ever direction got him back to the loading point the quickest.

I did move back after jump activities ended there. (Something about walking past a memorial to the six jumpers who died cooled people's interest in Sky Diving.)
 
Ateaist said:
There are often jumpers a few miles to the East of KSDM, and it's usually not very hard to pick them up because of the movements and brightly colored canopies.
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Spot them before the canopy opens, while flying.
 
Ateaist said:
Most of them should be open by the time they hit the TPA (or are they really that crazy)?
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True, but if you are in cruise passing the airport, you're about 4K AGL or higher, they are still in free fall. :hairraise: we've had some zoom by us, and we were 2 miles from the DZ.
 
Interesting.. I heard there is going to be a lot of this activity at the airport I am training at this summer. I'm not looking forward to having to dodge parachutes. Isn't there a safer way/place for these guys to land other than right at the airports where planes are flying in and out? The most interesting thing I noticed was last week the cloud ceiling was only 1900ft AGL and it was thick above that and these guys were jumping. How is a guy doing an instrument approach at an non towered field going to see these guys in the clouds?
 
Meat missiles are impossible to see before canopies open in any kind of airplane, high wing or low wing.

At Belen Alexander airport in NM, the touchdown target is inside the pattern. It is a little spooky to see them. When I was a student I would sometimes lose control of speed or altitude and had to go around because the jumpers distracted me. Also, folks fly right through their path if they overfly the field. So, it is a much safer procedure to orbit the field and enter at 45 to downwind. Despite RVs doing overhead breaks quite often, there was not one collision with a skydiver at Belen in my memory. So the actual hazard is not that great.
 
tinerj said:
In a high wing aircraft C150 for instance, jumpers are extremely difficult to see. Also, the fall time with parachute open can be very long -- often the Jumpers Away radio call is one-time, so if you happen to be listening to AWOS at that moment you will miss it.

It is so dangerous that I moved my C150 from Sullivan, Mo (KUUV) to Festus, MO KFES so as not to be in the neighbor because of the frequent Sky Divers flights.

In addition, the Twin Otter taking them up would sometimes take off from the intersection and land in which ever direction got him back to the loading point the quickest.

I did move back after jump activities ended there. (Something about walking past a memorial to the six jumpers who died cooled people's interest in Sky Diving.)
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Why would a high wing make skydivers harder to see?
 
JasonM said:
The most interesting thing I noticed was last week the cloud ceiling was only 1900ft AGL and it was thick above that and these guys were jumping. How is a guy doing an instrument approach at an non towered field going to see these guys in the clouds?
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If this was in the U.S., I'm pretty sure that was illegal (jumping through a ceiling, that is).

There really shouldn't be a problem as long as you stay outside of the jump area until all of the jumpers are down. I had one near run-in with "meat missiles" on one of my student XCs. It was at my destination, a well-known skydiving mecca. The jump pilot announced jumpers away in 5 as I was entering the pattern, so I thought I should be okay since it never takes me 5 minutes to land from the time I enter the pattern, right? Well, less than a minute later he announced 3 minutes. Still lots of time, right? Then as I was turning base to final he yelled jumpers away. So what do I do? Going around would have meant a longer time at risk of hitting them, so I landed. Most nervous landing of all of my (7-odd) student XCs. In 20/20 hindsight I probably should have hung around at a safe distance once I realized his watch was running double fast.
 
tinerj said:
Also, the fall time with parachute open can be very long -- often the Jumpers Away radio call is one-time
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At Bay Bridge, you used to always hear "Jumpers in 10 over Pennridge," and then they'd go to 5, and then 2, and then jumpers away. You'd have to try pretty hard not to hear them...not that it mattered because we were about 100 miles away. But they try to make themselves pretty obvious, I think. At least up at Pennridge.
 
If you are flying unaware through a drop zone you're not going to be looking for them and aren't going to see them regardless of what type of airplane you're in. At leas not until their chutes are open. Also, they are not completely incapable of seeing and avoiding you. I'm based at an airport that has a busy skydiving operation. the drop zone is very near to the runway on the opposite side of the pattern. Many skydivers have been killed over the years at this operation. Not a single one of them has ever collided with an aircraft.
 
Well given that I drop meat bombs quite often these days maybe I can give some insights into some of the concerns I have read on here.

First we try and call on CTAF 3 min 2 min and jumpers away. If you are in the area you should know what is going on. The AWOS has a a note that says "No crosswinds over the airport" because of this.

I am in constant contact with ATC and actually have my own squawk code. We tell ATC 2 Min out and jumpers away. ATC will advise me of any aircaft in the area and if they are an issue or not and they might just be a primary target.

Most canopy are open 4-5k so you should have no issues in the TP with them. They actually have their own TP that they fly and are quite manuverable so they are supposed to look out for you also.

If you are on an instrument appoach most likely we are not jumping as it is illegal to jump through clouds. If there is a hole then they can go through it. So if you are practicing approaches with ATC then you will know that there is jumpers because ATC knows.

All I can say is be aware of your surroundings and try and know if there is activity at an airport around you. I know a lot of pilots don't like it at there airport, but really it brings a lot of activity to many dying airports. I think the number of cases of collision with aircraft is really low so it does not appear to be a problem, but most jump pilots are trying to to the best they can to monitor the whole situation and not drop people on top of you.
 
My home base is just a few miles from another airport (ORANGE) with an active sky dive operation. The IAF for a couple of our approaches is right over that airport. I am almost always on the air with PCT so I get the heads up on when the jumps are happening. I've watched the meatbombs exit the jump plane. They're hard to spot. Once down to 4000 AGL or so they are under canopy so things are a bit easier.

The announcements that get me are when it's 20 degrees out on the surface. What's the wind chill on a falling body? My only jump I did was from 13,500 on a 90 (on the surface day) admittedly in a t-shirt but still darn cold (of course the free fall only lasts about 55 seconds).

Parachuters do not have the right of way. Both the jumper and the pilots are obliged to avoid collisions.
 
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Oh it gets friggen cold up there in the early season. I keep trying to convince the last one out to close the door before they leave, but so far no takers.
 
flyingron said:
My home base is just a few miles from another airport (ORANGE) with an active sky dive operation. The IAF for a couple of our approaches is right over that airport. I am almost always on the air with PCT so I get the heads up on when the jumps are happening. I've watched the meatbombs exit the jump plane. They're hard to spot. Once down to 4000 AGL or so they are under canopy so things are a bit easier.

The announcements that get me are when it's 20 degrees out on the surface. What's the wind chill on a falling body? My only jump I did was from 13,500 on a 90 (on the surface day) admittedly in a t-shirt but still darn cold (of course the free fall only lasts about 55 seconds).

Parachuters do not have the right of way. Both the jumper and the pilots are obliged to avoid collisions.
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My first dual X-C was to Orange, and while about three miles out, my CFI yells "MY AIRPLANE!" and makes a steep turn. We could see jumper under canopy that was much too close for comfort. I don't remember hearing anything over the CTAF before this.
 
They jump regularly a few miles north of my home airport of KSTS. When I hear them give warning on the radio I generally alter my route significantly or go somewhere else if I'm just doing standard pattern work at that airport for no particular reason related to that field. No reason to have the added danger of 200 lb meatballs to avoid while trying to focus on other things in my flight.
 
I've heard the calls. In my experience there is usually quite a bit of notice and multiple calls before the final "jumpers away". But I haven't had any success in seeing them yet.
 
I have flown into a SE Indiana airport that has jump operations a few times and have had good success establishing communications with the jump pilot about 10 miles out and he does a good job of letting me know where the jumpers are. He is also good at working out a sequence that allows him the shortest turnaround time for loading more jumpers and getting back into the air. In the long run that also gives me the quickest way into the airport. I establish the same communication with him after start up when departing.
 
MassPilot said:
My first dual X-C was to Orange, and while about three miles out, my CFI yells "MY AIRPLANE!" and makes a steep turn. We could see jumper under canopy that was much too close for comfort. I don't remember hearing anything over the CTAF before this.
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The problem is there's no obligation to say anything on the CTAF. They usually do, but also note, they announce typically jumpers away. When they jump from 14,000 or whatever, they'll have a minute of freefall PLUS four or five minutes of ride under canopy. So it can be quite possible for you to miss. I strongly recommend getting flight following when in vicinity of Jump Zones. Potomac Tracon does a pretty good job of coordinating participating and non-participating targets around jump time, but down low in Oranges own pattern you need to keep your heads on a swivel.
 
flyingron said:
The problem is there's no obligation to say anything on the CTAF. They usually do, but also note, they announce typically jumpers away. When they jump from 14,000 or whatever, they'll have a minute of freefall PLUS four or five minutes of ride under canopy. So it can be quite possible for you to miss. I strongly recommend getting flight following when in vicinity of Jump Zones. Potomac Tracon does a pretty good job of coordinating participating and non-participating targets around jump time, but down low in Oranges own pattern you need to keep your heads on a swivel.
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Wrong Orange I guess. I was referring to Orange Municipal Airport in Massachusetts, but they are also big on skydiving. That was actually the only flight I've ever had where we were denied flight following.
 
I'm not saying it has never happened but statistics show that skydiver collisions with aircraft (other than the jump plane) are extremely rare.
 
4 Die After Their Plane Collides With a Sky Diver
Published: November 23, 1993

A sky diver collided with a plane more than a mile above the ground on Sunday, causing a crash that killed the four people aboard the aircraft, the authorities said today. The parachutist was hospitalized with a broken ankle.

Mary Culver, a spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration, said the parachutist, Alfred Peters, who had not yet opened his parachute, hit the upright part of the tail section of the Cherokee Piper Warrior II and damaged the single-engine plane "so severely that it went into a tailspin." It crashed in woods near the Connecticut River, about a mile from Northampton Airport.

"The odds against this happening are absolutely astronomical," said Dave Strickland, owner of the airport's sky-diving operation.

State police identified the dead as Elliot Klein, 49, of Rhinebeck, N.Y., the pilot; his son, Jonas Klein, 18, a student at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology; another M.I.T. student, Christina Park, 18, of Auburn, Wash., and Jean Kimball, 45, of Pine Plains, N.Y.
 
VOLUSIA COUNTY, Fla. -- A skydiver's legs were severed at the knees and he later died after he collided with an airplane over Volusia County.

A spokesperson for the Deland Police Department said the airplane was about 600 feet in the air Saturday morning when skydiver Albert "Guss" Wing III, of Longwood, collided with its left wing.

Both of Wing's legs were separated from his body at the knees, but he still managed to maneuver the parachute and land, police said.

The airplane landed safely and police investigators found damage to the plane's left wing.

The skydiver was treated by emergency personnel at the scene and was airlifted to Halifax Hospital where he died. The Volusia County Medical Examiner's Office and the FAA have been notified.

The aircraft has been identified as a fixed-wing, propeller-driven DHC-6 Twin Otter.
 
This weekend I had my first flight to an airport (KORE) where skydiving was taking place, and I have to say it made me nervous, and the only thing I saw was the Twin Otter with jumpers waiting to take off. It seems like an incompatible use of airspace, but then I guess so does a lot of what we do on a routine basis, like slow planes or gliders sharing space with fast planes, or planes without radios, etc.
 
Eagle I said:
This weekend I had my first flight to an airport (KORE) where skydiving was taking place, and I have to say it made me nervous, and the only thing I saw was the Twin Otter with jumpers waiting to take off. It seems like an incompatible use of airspace, but then I guess so does a lot of what we do on a routine basis, like slow planes or gliders sharing space with fast planes, or planes without radios, etc.
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It is defenitly not incompatible. You just have to be aware of you surroundings. Just don't do crosswind pattern entry at an airport with jump ops going on :nono:
 
flyingmoose said:
It is defenitly not incompatible. You just have to be aware of you surroundings. Just don't do crosswind pattern entry at an airport with jump ops going on :nono:
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Yeah, I suppose it's not incompatible. Just because it's all fairly new to me, including the flying part, it seems a little odd.
 
i usually just stay on the downwind side of the airport
 
I know this is not set in stone but what kind of pattern do they usually fly. Since you have stated twice to not perform a crosswind I am assuming they hang over the center of the runway environment, and that a standard aircraft pattern would keep you outside their flying zone. Makes sense but can you confirm?
 
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At our DZ the jumpers fly a LH or RH pattern (depending on the wind) so they stay on the south side of the runway. RW 23 is a RH pattern for aircraft and LH for runway 5. So that keeps them on the North side. Usually the jumpers a pretty tight the the center of the airport so as long as you stay in the normal pattern you SHOULD not be in each others ways. I have heard A/C doing crosswinds with jumpers in the air and I have to promply remind them that is not a good idea (I guess they don't listen to the AWOS.) Sometime the students do crazy things like land right on the runway or get blown away from the airport so keeping you peepers open is always beneficial. I have had them land right in front of me before but usually they are not an issue.
 
zaitcev said:
Meat missiles are impossible to see before canopies open in any kind of airplane, high wing or low wing.

At Belen Alexander airport in NM, the touchdown target is inside the pattern. It is a little spooky to see them. When I was a student I would sometimes lose control of speed or altitude and had to go around because the jumpers distracted me. Also, folks fly right through their path if they overfly the field. So, it is a much safer procedure to orbit the field and enter at 45 to downwind. Despite RVs doing overhead breaks quite often, there was not one collision with a skydiver at Belen in my memory. So the actual hazard is not that great.
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When I flew into E80 on a Saturday last June, I was pleasantly surprised to hear the jump pilot advise ABQ Approach of "jumpers in 10," and the controller proceeded to tell me. That pilot was very diligent about his calls on CTAF, including reporting the number of jumpers - which came in handy as I waited to depart, watching for canopies.
 
flyingmoose said:
At our DZ the jumpers fly a LH or RH pattern (depending on the wind) so they stay on the south side of the runway. RW 23 is a RH pattern for aircraft and LH for runway 5. So that keeps them on the North side. Usually the jumpers a pretty tight the the center of the airport so as long as you stay in the normal pattern you SHOULD not be in each others ways. I have heard A/C doing crosswinds with jumpers in the air and I have to promply remind them that is not a good idea (I guess they don't listen to the AWOS.) Sometime the students do crazy things like land right on the runway or get blown away from the airport so keeping you peepers open is always beneficial. I have had them land right in front of me before but usually they are not an issue.
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Same at ours. AC traffic pattern places all AC north of the runway. Jumpers land to the south, and I mean WAY south (they land behind the jump hangar in a football field size landing zone. There's a windsowck and little 10ft diameter circle that they aim for in that plot and they hit it consistently. They are at least a 1/4 mile south of the runway when you include distance from rear of hangar to apron to taxiway to runway.

The CTAF callout is "jumpers away 14k and below all AC remain north of the field." As a student there were often 5-6 in the pattern while the jumpers were landing doing their pattern to the south. The only thing that gets my attention is the jump plane itself ... they spiral down from above and usually try to join on the crosswind to blend with traffic.

Edit: Our field also has an aerobatic box adjacent to the south and just west of the jump activity as well.
 
tmyers said:
Do you monitor 123.00 all the time to keep track of traffic?
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Yup
and ATC. can get purty busy sometimes
flyingron said:
The Deland one was a collision between a jump plane coming into land and a skydiver under canopy:

http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/2rspwzex2fqlaj3jptixzf551/I05072013120000.pdf

The FAA pretty much through the book at the pilot. Through a protracted legal battle, he went from Revoked to 270 suspension to being cleared I believe.
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I couldn't even imagine
 
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