gibbons
En-Route
I just think this is a very strange story. I'd be interested in any comments from you sailors.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16876784/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16876784/
Jim Gray still missing
- Thread starter gibbons
- Start date
Single handed blue water sailing is risky. There are countless ways a man can disappear out there.
-Skip
Joe B
Pre-takeoff checklist
I wouldn't call sailing to the Farallons "blue water sailing". I suppose it is, technically, but at 27 miles offshore the round trip is full day with a good breeze. It's a similar distance offshore as Catalina although the currents are a bit trickier. If timing and tides cooperate you get to come back into the Golden Gate at night with everything around the bay lit up. For an experienced sailor in a good boat this is a reasonable trip.
OTOH, anything which could incapacitate the single-handed sailor would cause the boat to either go sailing off (if he had an autopilot) or go drifting off with the currents (if he didn't.) Heart attack, stroke, etc. - we all know the list. When scattering his mother's ashes he might have felt he didn't need to be tethered to the boat and could have been wrong. He could have decided to step off the boat on his own. These kinds of things don't happen very often, but I've seen them all. I wish him peace.
Regards,
Joe
OTOH, anything which could incapacitate the single-handed sailor would cause the boat to either go sailing off (if he had an autopilot) or go drifting off with the currents (if he didn't.) Heart attack, stroke, etc. - we all know the list. When scattering his mother's ashes he might have felt he didn't need to be tethered to the boat and could have been wrong. He could have decided to step off the boat on his own. These kinds of things don't happen very often, but I've seen them all. I wish him peace.
Regards,
Joe
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Pretty good low out there about 800 south of Adak. I'd expect some pretty good surf coming from the south, just starting to break west of the Farallons...where the shelf ends....
Richard
Final Approach
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Ack...city life
Catalina is a milk run compared to the Farallons. The former is in the bight, just off an inner protected coast; the latter is at the end of the shelf on an outer unprotected coast. Nothing between AK and the Farallons and they sit smack dab in the cold water California current admidst upwelling on the outer shelf plus that slug of water draining out of SF Bay semidiurnally.
astanley
En-Route
I spent a lot of time offshore on big, powered commercial fishing rigs, and I'll tell you this - 20 miles is no joke. Crap, I've even seen guys end up lost 2 miles off shore.
Hope you find calm seas and a good breeze, Jim.
Cheers,
-Andrew
Hope you find calm seas and a good breeze, Jim.
Cheers,
-Andrew
There's so many possible things that could have happenned. I didn't see where they found the boat yet either. Very possibly on this one was he was scattering the ashes on a downwind run, the main jibed and he was knocked over the side. There's a hundred other scenarios I can picture including running up on a rock in the Farrallons and sinking the boat.
Not around shallow rocks on steep slopes like the Farallons... It actually happens with reasonable frequency.
tdager
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LittleIronPilot
Gotcha...most of my sailing experience (heck all of it) is lake sailing...and knowing people who sail the Gulf and the Caribbean, much different than the West coast.
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You'd think single handed he'd be in a harness and on a jackline.
I wouldn't think that. Not many people do on a day sail. Singlehanding is kinda goofy anyway, too many ways to get hurt & incapacitated. Extended trips are illegal anyway.
etsisk
En-Route
Huh? Extended single-handed trips are illegal???
C
CowboyPilot
Guest
I wouldn't discount the possibility of pirates, either.
Piracy is becoming a resurgent problem on the seas. We've had over a dozen instances of such on the far south Texas coast.
I know four retired Navy chiefs, all ex-SEALs, all with extensive combat experience, who call themselves the "Pirate Killers." Every year, they borrow or rent some rich person's yacht and go cruising--through the waters of Indochina, south Africa, you name it. They take along their own dinghy and either tow it or hoist it.
Every year they come back with a few more "Jolly Rogers" painted on the bow of their dinghy.
Along the way, they post their adventures on a forum I belong to.They're heading out end of this month. Can't wait to read the stories.
I hope this isn't what happened to Jim Gray, 'cause if pirates did grab him, they killed him, cleaned out his boat, then scuttled it. And ask any salvage diver: Those waters AIN'T the place you want to go looking for stuff.
If he went overboard, well, sharks can be bad out there as well.
Odd that no radio calls--distress or otherwise--to USCG were made.
Hoping for the best.
-JD
I wouldn't discount the possibility of pirates, either.
Piracy is becoming a resurgent problem on the seas. We've had over a dozen instances of such on the far south Texas coast.
I know four retired Navy chiefs, all ex-SEALs, all with extensive combat experience, who call themselves the "Pirate Killers." Every year, they borrow or rent some rich person's yacht and go cruising--through the waters of Indochina, south Africa, you name it. They take along their own dinghy and either tow it or hoist it.
Every year they come back with a few more "Jolly Rogers" painted on the bow of their dinghy.
They're heading out end of this month. Can't wait to read the stories.
I hope this isn't what happened to Jim Gray, 'cause if pirates did grab him, they killed him, cleaned out his boat, then scuttled it. And ask any salvage diver: Those waters AIN'T the place you want to go looking for stuff.
If he went overboard, well, sharks can be bad out there as well.
Odd that no radio calls--distress or otherwise--to USCG were made.
Hoping for the best.
-JD
Most yacht piracy happens in the Carribean area by drug runners who need a boat to use. (I'm always armed for these reasons, looking for a 50 cal or 20mm rifle to replace the old Weatherby) Farallons aren't really a high risk area. The only pirates you find in the Bay Area are Butt Pirates....
My bets are on knocked over during the scattering of the ashes. That water is cold enough this time of year you get about 1/2 hr to live. The boat is probably on its way to Hawaii and will be spotted in a couple of weeks by a ship.
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C
CowboyPilot
Guest
Gotta disagree with you on that.
A lot of yacht piracy DOES happen in the Carribean, but there is also a helluva lot more happening around our coastal waterways. The wife and I are headed down to South Padre end of this month to see the son of one of my old team mates who runs the Coast Guard station down there. He's handled over ten piracy cases alone just last year--and those were just the ones that were reported.
West Coast piracy incidents are quadrupling--especially with sport-cruiser length day sailers and power-boats. Why? Because I could sell my boat
which is considered to be in the sport-cruiser yacht class for between $100K and $200K depending on the electronics, time on engines, etc (why the hell am I telling YOU this?
You know way more about this than I do. . . anyhow, my -- let's call it a $150K -- boat will sell in Hong Kong, Singapore, Haikaido, etc for three to five times that much.A typical 28-foot day sailer can/will sell in the same region for a quarter of a million.
One of the hardest arrests I ever attempted was on a Triad member who brokered in pirated boats--and that wasn't all. He also brokered the young daughters found on those sport cruiser class boats and above.
I'm sure in your now-ex-part of the world, you're familiar with the Triad.
Two CI's had told us a lot about how such thing work, and it is damned chilling. So much so that even to this day, I do not go out for even a day cruise in the Sea Ray without being loaded for bear. And not just for me, but for any distress call that might come over 9 or 16.
It's bad stuff.
Jim Gray was known and seen frequenting the bay with his daughter. He's an academic type. An excellent sailor (which means he kept his boat ship shape and seaworthy at all times). He was 25 nm out. I haven't sailed in those waters, but where I'm at, 25 miles out is beyond the horizon.
Not SAYING this is what happened; just saying it is a possibility because of the nature of modern day pirates. There's a lot more to them than just the dope scumbags.
My Coast Guard friend tells us that a real hazard is boats being pirated, owners being turned into shark sh-t, and the boat being sailed right back into US waters flying a US flag and nobody so much as raising an eyebrow.
Drug-runners who pirate boats are actually the minority these days. There's a whole lot worse breed out there and they're growing exponentially.
Based on my SAR experience, I can't argue with that. Hypothermia is gonna get you damned quick out there. Depending on what the trade currents are doing, them white-bellied sharks will also get you. This is their time of the year out there.
BUT. . . also based on my SAR experience and knowing how meticulous and precise USCG folks are when looking for a drifting vessel, they KNOW the currents and know where to look, plus marine merchants would be keeping an eye out as well.
This one is strange, and again, I'm hoping for the best. But with each passing day and with so many unanswered questions and circumstances being what they are. . . .
Regards, and welcome home.
-JD
cwyckham
Line Up and Wait
I've considered doing some sailing in distant part of the world (daydreams only, at this stage), and piracy is one of the things that worries me most about a round the world sail.
One thing I've wondered about is the wisdom of being armed. If I were to do it, there'd probably only be a few of us on board, and it seems likely we'd have at most one or two who would be willing or able to shoot back. Assuming that I would have a largish rifle and would take the time to know how to use it, could I really put up an effective fight against a dozen armed pirates? We'd all be on pitching boats, so none of us could be too accurate, but I assume they'd be better armed and would have a higher volume of fire coming my way.
If I don't fight back, they might kill me, or they might take my stuff and leave me in my boat, or they might take my boat and leave me in a dinghy, or they might kidnap me and try to get a ransom.
If I do fight back, they might decide I'm not worth it and wait for the next boat, or they might kill me.
If I am sailing to many different countries, they'll all have different gun control laws. If I get caught with a rifle hidden in the bilge, I might end up in a very nasty prison somewhere.
Any thoughts?
JD, I am generally very against vigilantes, but in the case of hunting pirates on the high seas, I think your friends are doing a cool thing.
Chris
One thing I've wondered about is the wisdom of being armed. If I were to do it, there'd probably only be a few of us on board, and it seems likely we'd have at most one or two who would be willing or able to shoot back. Assuming that I would have a largish rifle and would take the time to know how to use it, could I really put up an effective fight against a dozen armed pirates? We'd all be on pitching boats, so none of us could be too accurate, but I assume they'd be better armed and would have a higher volume of fire coming my way.
If I don't fight back, they might kill me, or they might take my stuff and leave me in my boat, or they might take my boat and leave me in a dinghy, or they might kidnap me and try to get a ransom.
If I do fight back, they might decide I'm not worth it and wait for the next boat, or they might kill me.
If I am sailing to many different countries, they'll all have different gun control laws. If I get caught with a rifle hidden in the bilge, I might end up in a very nasty prison somewhere.
Any thoughts?
JD, I am generally very against vigilantes, but in the case of hunting pirates on the high seas, I think your friends are doing a cool thing.
Chris
tdager
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LittleIronPilot
Piracy is something I am familiar with through my reading.
The strange thing is that most piracy where they want to KEEP the boat happens to motorboats/yachts, not 5-7-10kt sailboats. (at least not in the US).
I shudder at the thought of what happens to those young women....
The strange thing is that most piracy where they want to KEEP the boat happens to motorboats/yachts, not 5-7-10kt sailboats. (at least not in the US).
I shudder at the thought of what happens to those young women....
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Very Naieve
They come aboard knowing they have to kill all aboard
I will not go without something semiautomatic. Naval Officer training. Believe me they are going to kill you. On the high seas, that is the one situation where you let GOD sort them out.
cwyckham
Line Up and Wait
That's why I asked.
I guess I don't know why they have to kill all aboard. In the places where they operate there is basically no law enforcement. A mugger doesn't have to kill me and there are cops where there are muggers. Of course, it may be more convenient to kill me, especially if you want my boat. But as was said above, they probably don't want a boat I'd be on, anyways. They want cash, guns, booze, avionics, etc., and perhaps to rape or kidnap any women on board.
I only know one person who's had direct encounters with pirates. She was a Vietnamese boat person after the war (now a high school teacher in Canada) and their boat got hit by pirates multiple times. The one time I talked to her about it, I didn't want to press for details, but she's not dead. The last batch of pirates towed them all to shore since an earlier batch had taken their engines. They probably all would have died if it wasn't for the kind act of these pirates. Of course, I wouldn't count on any kindness.
Chris
etsisk
En-Route
see, Chris, just because you or I don't know why they have to kill everyone, doesn't mean that THEY don't think that they know why - if they were remotely rational, they wouldn't be doing this sort of stuff, anyway. They'll kill you just because you were there. If they don't, then praise G*d for your luck. But don't be counting on it, for sure.
And JD, I don't know how you were able to do it, 'cause I'd have had a LOT of trouble arresting that sonofabitch.
And JD, I don't know how you were able to do it, 'cause I'd have had a LOT of trouble arresting that sonofabitch.
It is a strange one JD, but not that rare. I've been involved in SAR as well, and it's a big ocean out there. The boat could have also kept running and hit rocks in the Farallons and sunk. Some fisherman may stick his nets on it in a few months or years... The thing is, there's a high likelyhood that this may never be solved, as history is repleate with unsolved disappearances of vessels and seamen. Considering where he was, the odds are better on accidental than nefarious causes, however, I am well aware of piracy issues and as I said, I am armed offshore.
Let me disspell you of the notion of leaving you in a dinghy, they don't. They kill everybody on board, no questions, no qualms. Everybody onboard dies, these people do not leave witnesses. You have no choice but to fight or die. That's why I carry long range large caliber rifles and practice with them offshore. Learn the timing, reach out and touch them before they get in range, and hope they turn off for easier prey, if not, when they get near you shoot for their engines, then you switch to shotguns and sidearms and fight for your life, because that is what is at stake.
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Oh yeah, on the high seas there are no vigilantes because there is no specified law enforcement agency, it is everyones duty to uphold the law. Everyone is a defacto enforcement operative.
C
CowboyPilot
Guest
I didn't arrest him. I attempted to arrest him. He wasn't having none of it, so it all ended up working out for the best.
-JD
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
shiver me timbers, i had no idea piracy was still alive and kickin
C
CowboyPilot
Guest
That is the sad, but bloody truth. In over 20 years of totin' a federal badge and many conversations with FBI's BSU, US Customs, DEA, USBP and USCG, there are certain things that have become distinctly clear about piracy on the high seas as it exists in today's modern times.
First, always bear in mind the varieties of pirates we're dealing with. Your ordinary garden-variety sea-thief just wants your boat and valuables. But your ordinary garden-variety sea-thief is little more than a mugger who operates on the water rather than the concrete of inner-cities.
And, remember that pirates, like many criminals, are in their own food chain. The little ****ant sea-thieves are bait fish. The bigger fish (pirates) eat them and keep their wares.
The drug dealers not only take your yacht/sailer/cruiser, but they take your daughters and have their fun with them before killing them. More often than not, they'll make you--Dad or Husband or Big/Little Brother--watch while they have their fun. The drug-runner pirates are at the bottom of their own food chain and otherwise powerless in the hierarchy of the cartels. Thus, when they can seize/steal an occupied vessel, it is a rare opportunity for THEM to have some power and the ability to make live/die decisions.
And, for this group of animals, killing is almost a sexual thing. It is the ultimate aphrodesiac, a passage into manhood and it almost always earns them the respect and gratitude of their ultimate superiors, because the witnesses (owners/occupants of the hijacked boat) are somewhere in the large intestines of the sharks by the time they are reported as missing.
The third group of pirates are the scariest and most dangerous of all--the Islamic pirates who operate out of Indochinese waters, although they originate from all over including Africa, the Arabian peninsula, all throughout the Mediterranean. These are the pirates who steal for both profit and to rid the seas of infidels. The boats are sold for profits which go to Hamas or some other dungheap group, or they are used for suicide misions, "test penetration" missions, etc. Radio gear and radar gear is disseminated, etc etc.
Occupants are normally just shot and tossed overboard. These pirates want little attention drawn to themselves. They do their killing quick and get on with it. Biggest ploy is to fly their orange flag and signal distress. Once amidships, you're dead. Often times, the pirates are family with Dad being the skipper and sons being the triggermen.
These pirates are the most dangerous of all.
Henning said:
We really should go cruising the Carribean sometime. I have all the requisite paperwork and licenses, and these two weapons are always on board anytime we're on the ICW.
When you're in Mexican waters, you're in No-Man's Land. When you're in international waters near Mexico, you better have your head on a swivel.
The scumbags down there know the regular fishing charters--and the fishing charters know them. But the druggies and opportunists out there know when new boat is passing through their waters--and that's where they aim.
Scuttle 'em all and then to hell with them is what I say.
-JD
Pirates are alive and well, they go after everything from medium yachts to ULCC tankers. They bear no resemblance to disney movie's version of pirates.
cwyckham
Line Up and Wait
Well, I am officially scared s***less now.
When I think of long distance sailing, I've always been more afraid of pirates than storms. I guess I was right.
So do you guys just avoid all other watercraft in international waters? I assume it depends on exactly where you are? If you saw a vessel flying a distress signal in 'questionable' waters, would you just sail on by? If you do, others may die. If you don't, you may die. I can't think of any safe way to approach such a vessel. What if I'm in distress? Do I trust an approaching vessel?
I'm going to go curl up in a ball under the covers now.
Chris
Edit: And thanks, JD, for the fascinating view into the minds and motivations of pirates.
When I think of long distance sailing, I've always been more afraid of pirates than storms. I guess I was right.
So do you guys just avoid all other watercraft in international waters? I assume it depends on exactly where you are? If you saw a vessel flying a distress signal in 'questionable' waters, would you just sail on by? If you do, others may die. If you don't, you may die. I can't think of any safe way to approach such a vessel. What if I'm in distress? Do I trust an approaching vessel?
I'm going to go curl up in a ball under the covers now.
Chris
Edit: And thanks, JD, for the fascinating view into the minds and motivations of pirates.
Locked, loaded, safety off and finger on trigger. Make radio contact from a distance. If the vessel doesn't appear in distress, it probably isn't. If they have a medical emergency, ain't F-All I can do about it anyway, they're better off waiting for a ship with a surgeon. I'll relay a Mayday for them... You just feel it out and trust your instincts. I've only run into trouble a couple of times, and a well placed shot through the wheelhouse was enough deterent to get them to break off, although once at the dock in Panama, I did have to shoot a guy on the barge who was chasing after my deckhand with a bat-con-spikes. That was after we paid $1500 to the military for guard services. When ever I run through Malaca we run with the fire mains charged and lookouts posted ready to repel. I asked for a flame thrower, but they wouldn't give me one.
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I've heard that a 12ga shotgun with slugs will hole a fiberglass hull, true?
ScottM
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iBazinga!
If you read my story about sinking out in Lake Michigan you will see that this statement is true. We were about 3 to 5 miles of the coast of Chicago and we lost sight of the city. There are some big buildings out there to loose sight of and this was all due to wave height and our height above those waves. The winds were out of the west and there was no way to know which direction to even try and swim. It was as if I was hundreds of miles off shore.
Speaking of which did anyone yet read the story of the ferry pilot that went down by Hawaii in the latest AOPA Pilot rag?
tdager
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LittleIronPilot
I wouldn't use slugs. You may hole the hull, but you have a low likelyhood of diabling the engines. They usually have junk that they sink once they have your vessel. High power rifles with armour piercing bullets is what you want. There's a .50 cal semi auto that's somewhat available I really want. Ma Duece would be very nice as well, but only got one for a delivery once for an Equadorian Generalissimo. He asked if there was anything else I wanted for the trip to Equador, I told him. It showed up the next day with three boxes of ammo and a manual. The Swedes have a 20mm bolt action gun I wouldn't mind either...
C
CowboyPilot
Guest
I got a an buddy who's a retired SAS sergeant-major who owns and runs an honest-to-God 2000 meter rifle range about an hour from where I live. You're gonna have to come down here sometime and meet this guy.
Reason I mention him is he helped me and a few other USMS SOG guys sell the USMS on 12-guage BRI saboted slugs. In test after test, not only would they go through the sheet metal surrounding a car/truck engine like cayenne-pepper-laced grease through a sweaty goose, but they would crack the engine block almost every single time.
The aluminum blocks and heads common on many marine and aviation (and now auto) applications? It would bore right through and play nine kinds of hell with the inner guts.
I keep 3" magnum 00 buckshot in the Winchester Mariner, but I also have a butt-stock sleeve that holds five 3" BRI Magnum Sabot Slugs--and remember this: a 12-guage slug is a .50 cal slug.
I keep two 20-round magazines in the HK-91 loaded with .308 (NATO 7.62x54mm). The third magazine is loaded with incendiary .308's I still have from my FLE days.
I've also got another HK "goody" I keep stashed on board for which I also have the requisite papers and license just in case someone gets too close and it becomes a CQC situation.
When I'm flying, I don't worry about much. Keep a cocked and locked Model 70 with me and a little Charter Arms .22LR survival rifle pack in the baggage compartment.
When I'm driving, I'm carrying and usually have a shotgun in the backseat of the truck with a jacket thrown over it. (Remember: in my previous line of work, you didn't make many friends.)
But when I'm out on the water and away from the ICW, the only person I can rely upon is myself. So I'm prepared. Maybe it's overkill or maybe I'm paranoid. But I'd rather have the hardware and not need it than the other way around.
Regards.
-JD
The difference is that it has to be able to start by going through 3/8" Corten steel first rather than 22 guage sheet metal. That absorbs a lot of energy. Plus I want the .50 cal for long range accuracy, so I want a rifled bore.
I'd like to have an HK-91 and a Berretta 96. All out of weapons at the moment since I went to Oz. I like the .308 round, it'll reach out and touch someone real nice like. I like the 96 because it carries more rounds than a .45 and has the stopping power the 92 lacks.
Then there's always a $20 .25 auto for the pocket...
wby0nder
Cleared for Takeoff
I live a sheltered life here in the heartland. I had no idea that piracy would be a factor to consider if venturing out on the high seas. Wind and waves, sharks maybe, dehydration, starvation, sunburn. No idea about pirates. Now all the other stuff seems irrelevent.
I've got questions for our resident experts. These might sound funny to you but these are serious questions to me.
Is there anywhere in the oceans where you can go a-sailing and relax? Pacific islands? Bahamas? Gulf of Mexico? Florida waters?
How about the Great Lakes? Can you get your throat slit out there or is it just the Gales of November you have to worry about?
Is the Mississippi River crawling with thugs?
Now the real question... Do I need to protect myself from Air Piracy flying around in the USA in my own airplanes?
MM
I've got questions for our resident experts. These might sound funny to you but these are serious questions to me.
Is there anywhere in the oceans where you can go a-sailing and relax? Pacific islands? Bahamas? Gulf of Mexico? Florida waters?
How about the Great Lakes? Can you get your throat slit out there or is it just the Gales of November you have to worry about?
Is the Mississippi River crawling with thugs?
Now the real question... Do I need to protect myself from Air Piracy flying around in the USA in my own airplanes?
MM
Well, let me put it in perspective, in 20 years where I've spent 240+days of each at sea throughout the world, I've brought the arsenal to bear 3 times, and once (which is the only time blood was spilled, not mine) was in port in Panama while under military guard. The likelyhood is low. Preparedness will get you through. You do have a greater concern with your former list of concerns. If you're in a wood boat, you missed 2 BTW, Orcas sinking your boat (never use red bottom paint on a wood boat) and billfish (I had a Marlin put his bill through my bow staving in two planks. I thank the USCG's C-130 for bringing pumps warmed up and ready to rock.)
IOW you can relax while sailing, I always do...
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wby0nder
Cleared for Takeoff
I guess I'd just have to adjust my definition of preparedness from "picture ID, cash, cell phone, flashlight, water, energy bars, swiss army knife" to include "semi automatic large caliber weapon plus side arm"
Pretty safe here in Iowa I guess. Only have to worry about the weather killing you.
MM
Pretty safe here in Iowa I guess. Only have to worry about the weather killing you.
MM
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Like I said, this is one situation where you let God sort 'em out.
Think of it this way. Your are infantry. You have no reinforcements, no place to go. You are engaged. You win or you die. On the high seas, there's no Geneva.
Think of it this way. Your are infantry. You have no reinforcements, no place to go. You are engaged. You win or you die. On the high seas, there's no Geneva.