JetBlue Pilot Assists Cirrus Pilot on an ILS

[tspear]

Really? In IMC without a rating and no ride required? If he had a rating and was below minimum altitudes and he doesn’t need a ride? Okay then. Let’s just say I disagree with your baseless opinions.

A 709 from what I have seen is required when a pilot is reckless and or dangerous, mostly to people on the ground.
If the pilot is IR ratted and current, how was the flight reckless? To me it sounded like a flustered pilot who was making use of every available resource.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk

 

[Kritchlow]

Really? In IMC without a rating and no ride required? If he had a rating and was below minimum altitudes and he doesn’t need a ride? Okay then. Let’s just say I disagree with your baseless opinions.

IMO, in your scenarios a ride would not be needed. I think vilolation & suspension would be more appropriate.

 

[Clark1961]

A 709 from what I have seen is required when a pilot is reckless and or dangerous, mostly to people on the ground.
If the pilot is IR ratted and current, how was the flight reckless? To me it sounded like a flustered pilot who was making use of every available resource.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk

How was it reckless? He wanted to fly the approach but couldn’t figure out the correct minimum altitudes. One the first approach he was well below the minimum altitude.

You’ll have to do much better with your objection.

 

[Velocity173]

I would have offset the DBRITE, zoomed in on the FAC and talked him down with my own SA. Archie League award in the bag!

 

[Clark1961]

IMO, in your scenarios a ride would not be needed. I think vilolation & suspension would be more appropriate.

Perhaps. A suspension is part of a 709 since the cert is surrendered until the ride is successfully completed. I think a 709 would definitely be appropriate if he had an instrument rating.

 

[Kritchlow]

Perhaps. A suspension is part of a 709 since the cert is surrendered until the ride is successfully completed. I think a 709 would definitely be appropriate if he had an instrument rating.

Right.... if he had the rating but couldn't figure out how to fly the approach, than a 709 would be appropriate. IMO that is text book what a 709 should be for.

 

[Clark1961]

Right.... if he had the rating but couldn't figure out how to fly the approach, than a 709 would be appropriate. IMO that is text book what a 709 should be for.

The next step is if he tried to fly an approach without the rating or declaring an emergency. The 709 would be used to train on VFR requirements. Could go either way but we aren’t talking commercial requirements here.

 

[Dave Theisen]

I'd like to hear more of what let up to the clip we heard. Was it unforcast weather? Did he declare an emergency? Obviously the Jet blue pilot knew something was up because he offered his services while he was still on another frequency.

 

[Ravioli]

A suspension is part of a 709 since the cert is surrendered until the ride is successfully completed.

This statement is not accurate.

I know because I had a prop strike at OSH and got to enjoy a 709 ride afterwards, but at no time was my certificate suspended.

 

[Kritchlow]

Actually.... I didn't see where the JB pilot did all that much.
You can flame me for that, but just calling it how I see it.

 

[luvflyin]

Actually.... I didn't see where the JB pilot did all that much.
You can flame me for that, but just calling it how I see it.

I think he did. Giving him the power settings and the rate of descent to look for I'd say gave the pilot the confidence needed to descend without having continuous altitude feed back

 

[Kritchlow]

I think he did. Giving him the power settings and the rate of descent to look for I'd say gave the pilot the confidence needed to descend without having continuous altitude feed back

Non of which applied to an ILS.... perhaps I'm mistaken here.

I'm not a cirrus guy, but I I feel that's irrelevant. He didn't (to the best that I could hear) give him any "cirrus" instruction.

Am I missing something??

 

[Dave Theisen]

He asked him if he the Avidyne system, and if he had the right localizer frequency dialed in and reminded him to hit the VLOC button. It sounded like maybe this helped him get the glide slope up, but since the Cirrus pilot's instrument terminology is so bad, it's hard to tell. I also wouldn't downplay the effect of a just hearing a calming voice of experience on the radio.

 

[luvflyin]

Non of which applied to an ILS.... perhaps I'm mistaken here.

I'm not a cirrus guy, but I I feel that's irrelevant. He didn't (to the best that I could hear) give him any "cirrus" instruction.

Am I missing something??

I smell a ripcord joke coming

 

[Kritchlow]

I truly believe there is much more to this story.

I don't think we can reasonably speculate..... yet.

 

[Hopper88]

As I’m the JBLU pilot who helped and just wanted to explain more of the situation.
When we checked in with Jax approach we heard (can listen to the interactions with the Cirrus pilot on liveatc) where he said to the controller “he was a little rusty on the localizer and was wondering he he could help”. The controller said he could only give vectors and he wasn’t a pilot so really couldn’t help.
After he was pulled off the approach after having issues with intercepting the loc, he was sent back around and was given the opportunity to get things ready for the approach and to let Jax know when he was ready to try again. He was cleared for the approach and sent to tower. We were right behind him and could tell something was up and offered my help as a current Cirrus pilot and an ex CSIP, if anything was needed. The Jax controller then asked me if there was any reason why the Cirrus would be 900’ below the FAF as he crossed it at 1000’ and continued to descend. I said no and shouldn’t be anywhere near that altitude and was probably complacency. Again told the Jax app controller to pass along that I would be happy to help if he goes missed. We get cleared for the approach and sent to tower right behind the Cirrus.

Once on tower I told the controller I was willing to help once we got on the ground since we had to do our jobs first. This is where you can hear me say to the Cirrus “just remember fly the airplane”. As an instructor where a student is already stressed, just positive comments and keeping it simple can mean a lot. Once on the ground, I asked the pilot if he was flying an Avidyne or Garmin Cirrus. He said Avidyne, and tried to explain how to couple the approach but he brushed it off to want to fly green needles and hand fly it. Already knowing he had issues with capturing the GS and saying he had issues with the autopilot capturing altitudes, I offered proper speeds and power settings that would allow a proper descent rate. I also asked the pilot to double check the loc freq and course which he said he checked. With the help of the controller he called out the marker and the pilot proceeded with his descent. I questioned the pilot on his speed which he said was 110 kts, corrected him saying it should be 90-100 kts and even earlier said if he should be at 50%flaps. Forget when I asked how much fuel he had left which he responded back with 9 gallons remaining and he had to get on the ground. I tried to be the calm instructor voice but didn’t want to overload the freq since he was already stressed enough. Once he declared the runway was in sight I said on he freq “ remember it’s not over till you are on the ground”.
I’m no way saying i am or should be considered a hero or something but feel I helped the pilot safely get on the ground. Someone on the radio offered Orlando had better weather than Jax but with say 9 gal of fuel he wouldn’t have made it and his options became limited which could have been a caps deployment of worse if the weather got worse.
Once he landed and parked at sheltair he copied down my phone number and offered him to call me anytime if he wanted to talk.

Again, even after I finished the night I thought of ways I could have said or done things differently but in the end the pilot got on the ground safely and that’s all that really matter in the end.

 

[Kritchlow]

Likely good info, but too long to read.

 

[Velocity173]

Considering it's from the horse's mouth, probably worth with the 60 secs to read it. Now if it were one of Nate's posts? Yeah I'm skipping it.

 

[eman1200]

As I’m the JBLU pilot who helped and just wanted to explain more of the situation.
When we checked in with Jax approach we heard (can listen to the interactions with the Cirrus pilot on liveatc) where he said to the controller “he was a little rusty on the localizer and was wondering he he could help”. The controller said he could only give vectors and he wasn’t a pilot so really couldn’t help.
After he was pulled off the approach after having issues with intercepting the loc, he was sent back around and was given the opportunity to get things ready for the approach and to let Jax know when he was ready to try again. He was cleared for the approach and sent to tower. We were right behind him and could tell something was up and offered my help as a current Cirrus pilot and an ex CSIP, if anything was needed. The Jax controller then asked me if there was any reason why the Cirrus would be 900’ below the FAF as he crossed it at 1000’ and continued to descend. I said no and shouldn’t be anywhere near that altitude and was probably complacency. Again told the Jax app controller to pass along that I would be happy to help if he goes missed. We get cleared for the approach and sent to tower right behind the Cirrus.

Once on tower I told the controller I was willing to help once we got on the ground since we had to do our jobs first. This is where you can hear me say to the Cirrus “just remember fly the airplane”. As an instructor where a student is already stressed, just positive comments and keeping it simple can mean a lot. Once on the ground, I asked the pilot if he was flying an Avidyne or Garmin Cirrus. He said Avidyne, and tried to explain how to couple the approach but he brushed it off to want to fly green needles and hand fly it. Already knowing he had issues with capturing the GS and saying he had issues with the autopilot capturing altitudes, I offered proper speeds and power settings that would allow a proper descent rate. I also asked the pilot to double check the loc freq and course which he said he checked. With the help of the controller he called out the marker and the pilot proceeded with his descent. I questioned the pilot on his speed which he said was 110 kts, corrected him saying it should be 90-100 kts and even earlier said if he should be at 50%flaps. Forget when I asked how much fuel he had left which he responded back with 9 gallons remaining and he had to get on the ground. I tried to be the calm instructor voice but didn’t want to overload the freq since he was already stressed enough. Once he declared the runway was in sight I said on he freq “ remember it’s not over till you are on the ground”.
I’m no way saying i am or should be considered a hero or something but feel I helped the pilot safely get on the ground. Someone on the radio offered Orlando had better weather than Jax but with say 9 gal of fuel he wouldn’t have made it and his options became limited which could have been a caps deployment of worse if the weather got worse.
Once he landed and parked at sheltair he copied down my phone number and offered him to call me anytime if he wanted to talk.

Again, even after I finished the night I thought of ways I could have said or done things differently but in the end the pilot got on the ground safely and that’s all that really matter in the end.

I️ noticed a distinct pause/hesitation in your voice when u were cleared to land right after the controller told you the cirrus (air quotes) pilot (/air quotes) was just over the numbers. What were your thoughts at that moment?

 

[Palmpilot]

Likely good info, but too long to read.

Not too long for me - very nice of him to let us in on the additional details, IMO!

 

[mscard88]

Likely good info, but too long to read.

Too long? C'mon man, obviously this guy is a super weak instrument rated pilot or just a VFR only who was behind the plane let alone trying a real ILS in IMC without being instrument rated.

JetBlue pilot may have saved this guy's ass. Well done JetBlue guy.

 

[Sundancer]

As I’m the JBLU pilot who helped and just wanted to explain more of the situation.
When we checked in with Jax approach we heard (can listen to the interactions with the Cirrus pilot on liveatc) where he said to the controller “he was a little rusty on the localizer and was wondering he he could help”. The controller said he could only give vectors and he wasn’t a pilot so really couldn’t help.
After he was pulled off the approach after having issues with intercepting the loc, he was sent back around and was given the opportunity to get things ready for the approach and to let Jax know when he was ready to try again. He was cleared for the approach and sent to tower. We were right behind him and could tell something was up and offered my help as a current Cirrus pilot and an ex CSIP, if anything was needed. The Jax controller then asked me if there was any reason why the Cirrus would be 900’ below the FAF as he crossed it at 1000’ and continued to descend. I said no and shouldn’t be anywhere near that altitude and was probably complacency. Again told the Jax app controller to pass along that I would be happy to help if he goes missed. We get cleared for the approach and sent to tower right behind the Cirrus.

Once on tower I told the controller I was willing to help once we got on the ground since we had to do our jobs first. This is where you can hear me say to the Cirrus “just remember fly the airplane”. As an instructor where a student is already stressed, just positive comments and keeping it simple can mean a lot. Once on the ground, I asked the pilot if he was flying an Avidyne or Garmin Cirrus. He said Avidyne, and tried to explain how to couple the approach but he brushed it off to want to fly green needles and hand fly it. Already knowing he had issues with capturing the GS and saying he had issues with the autopilot capturing altitudes, I offered proper speeds and power settings that would allow a proper descent rate. I also asked the pilot to double check the loc freq and course which he said he checked. With the help of the controller he called out the marker and the pilot proceeded with his descent. I questioned the pilot on his speed which he said was 110 kts, corrected him saying it should be 90-100 kts and even earlier said if he should be at 50%flaps. Forget when I asked how much fuel he had left which he responded back with 9 gallons remaining and he had to get on the ground. I tried to be the calm instructor voice but didn’t want to overload the freq since he was already stressed enough. Once he declared the runway was in sight I said on he freq “ remember it’s not over till you are on the ground”.
I’m no way saying i am or should be considered a hero or something but feel I helped the pilot safely get on the ground. Someone on the radio offered Orlando had better weather than Jax but with say 9 gal of fuel he wouldn’t have made it and his options became limited which could have been a caps deployment of worse if the weather got worse.
Once he landed and parked at sheltair he copied down my phone number and offered him to call me anytime if he wanted to talk.

Again, even after I finished the night I thought of ways I could have said or done things differently but in the end the pilot got on the ground safely and that’s all that really matter in the end.

Good on ya, Mate . . .

 

[Hopper88]

I️ noticed a distinct pause/hesitation in your voice when u were cleared to land right after the controller told you the cirrus (air quotes) pilot (/air quotes) was just over the numbers. What were your thoughts at that moment?

Don’t think it was a pause, but I was busy with my own job as a PM and like I said above, said just out on the freq, hey man fly the airplane. Knew he was going back in the clouds to try again and was already stressed from hearing his radio calls, and hoped I could talk him through and give any help I could to bring him to a safe landing.

 

[mscard88]

I️ noticed a distinct pause/hesitation in your voice when u were cleared to land right after the controller told you the cirrus (air quotes) pilot (/air quotes) was just over the numbers. What were your thoughts at that moment?

Gawd eman you sound like a CNN reporter, Wolf as a matter of fact!

 

[eman1200]

Gawd eman you sound like a CNN reporter, Wolf as a matter of fact!

F Wolf.

But yeah, that was pretty interviewy of me.

 

[ahypnoz]

Great job in helping the pilot getting down on the ground safely. Little things like, fly the plane and making sure he had good air speed can make a huge difference.

 

[Artimas]

As I’m the JBLU pilot who helped and just wanted to explain more of the situation.
When we checked in with Jax approach we heard (can listen to the interactions with the Cirrus pilot on liveatc) where he said to the controller “he was a little rusty on the localizer and was wondering he he could help”. The controller said he could only give vectors and he wasn’t a pilot so really couldn’t help.
After he was pulled off the approach after having issues with intercepting the loc, he was sent back around and was given the opportunity to get things ready for the approach and to let Jax know when he was ready to try again. He was cleared for the approach and sent to tower. We were right behind him and could tell something was up and offered my help as a current Cirrus pilot and an ex CSIP, if anything was needed. The Jax controller then asked me if there was any reason why the Cirrus would be 900’ below the FAF as he crossed it at 1000’ and continued to descend. I said no and shouldn’t be anywhere near that altitude and was probably complacency. Again told the Jax app controller to pass along that I would be happy to help if he goes missed. We get cleared for the approach and sent to tower right behind the Cirrus.

Once on tower I told the controller I was willing to help once we got on the ground since we had to do our jobs first. This is where you can hear me say to the Cirrus “just remember fly the airplane”. As an instructor where a student is already stressed, just positive comments and keeping it simple can mean a lot. Once on the ground, I asked the pilot if he was flying an Avidyne or Garmin Cirrus. He said Avidyne, and tried to explain how to couple the approach but he brushed it off to want to fly green needles and hand fly it. Already knowing he had issues with capturing the GS and saying he had issues with the autopilot capturing altitudes, I offered proper speeds and power settings that would allow a proper descent rate. I also asked the pilot to double check the loc freq and course which he said he checked. With the help of the controller he called out the marker and the pilot proceeded with his descent. I questioned the pilot on his speed which he said was 110 kts, corrected him saying it should be 90-100 kts and even earlier said if he should be at 50%flaps. Forget when I asked how much fuel he had left which he responded back with 9 gallons remaining and he had to get on the ground. I tried to be the calm instructor voice but didn’t want to overload the freq since he was already stressed enough. Once he declared the runway was in sight I said on he freq “ remember it’s not over till you are on the ground”.
I’m no way saying i am or should be considered a hero or something but feel I helped the pilot safely get on the ground. Someone on the radio offered Orlando had better weather than Jax but with say 9 gal of fuel he wouldn’t have made it and his options became limited which could have been a caps deployment of worse if the weather got worse.
Once he landed and parked at sheltair he copied down my phone number and offered him to call me anytime if he wanted to talk.

Again, even after I finished the night I thought of ways I could have said or done things differently but in the end the pilot got on the ground safely and that’s all that really matter in the end.

Good job.

 

[neilw2]

Likely good info, but too long to read.

Dude, are you insane? You spend 10 plus post debating what could have happened but when the guy who coached the pilot down writes his first hand account it's 'too long to read" . Not only that but you feel the need to reply to his post saying your not reading it? umm...way to add your educated opinion

 

[neilw2]

Don’t think it was a pause, but I was busy with my own job as a PM and like I said above, said just out on the freq, hey man fly the airplane. Knew he was going back in the clouds to try again and was already stressed from hearing his radio calls, and hoped I could talk him through and give any help I could to bring him to a safe landing.

Nice job man. That could have ended on the pages of a FAA accident report easily. I feel you played no small part in preventing that. Thanks for going above and beyond. You may very well have saved someone's life.

 

[luvflyin]

As I’m the JBLU pilot who helped and just wanted to explain more of the situation.
When we checked in with Jax approach we heard (can listen to the interactions with the Cirrus pilot on liveatc) where he said to the controller “he was a little rusty on the localizer and was wondering he he could help”. The controller said he could only give vectors and he wasn’t a pilot so really couldn’t help.
After he was pulled off the approach after having issues with intercepting the loc, he was sent back around and was given the opportunity to get things ready for the approach and to let Jax know when he was ready to try again. He was cleared for the approach and sent to tower. We were right behind him and could tell something was up and offered my help as a current Cirrus pilot and an ex CSIP, if anything was needed. The Jax controller then asked me if there was any reason why the Cirrus would be 900’ below the FAF as he crossed it at 1000’ and continued to descend. I said no and shouldn’t be anywhere near that altitude and was probably complacency. Again told the Jax app controller to pass along that I would be happy to help if he goes missed. We get cleared for the approach and sent to tower right behind the Cirrus.

Once on tower I told the controller I was willing to help once we got on the ground since we had to do our jobs first. This is where you can hear me say to the Cirrus “just remember fly the airplane”. As an instructor where a student is already stressed, just positive comments and keeping it simple can mean a lot. Once on the ground, I asked the pilot if he was flying an Avidyne or Garmin Cirrus. He said Avidyne, and tried to explain how to couple the approach but he brushed it off to want to fly green needles and hand fly it. Already knowing he had issues with capturing the GS and saying he had issues with the autopilot capturing altitudes, I offered proper speeds and power settings that would allow a proper descent rate. I also asked the pilot to double check the loc freq and course which he said he checked. With the help of the controller he called out the marker and the pilot proceeded with his descent. I questioned the pilot on his speed which he said was 110 kts, corrected him saying it should be 90-100 kts and even earlier said if he should be at 50%flaps. Forget when I asked how much fuel he had left which he responded back with 9 gallons remaining and he had to get on the ground. I tried to be the calm instructor voice but didn’t want to overload the freq since he was already stressed enough. Once he declared the runway was in sight I said on he freq “ remember it’s not over till you are on the ground”.
I’m no way saying i am or should be considered a hero or something but feel I helped the pilot safely get on the ground. Someone on the radio offered Orlando had better weather than Jax but with say 9 gal of fuel he wouldn’t have made it and his options became limited which could have been a caps deployment of worse if the weather got worse.
Once he landed and parked at sheltair he copied down my phone number and offered him to call me anytime if he wanted to talk.

Again, even after I finished the night I thought of ways I could have said or done things differently but in the end the pilot got on the ground safely and that’s all that really matter in the end.

Well, ya may not be a ticker tape parade build a statue Hero, but you done good and my hats off to you. Nice work

 

[Jim_CAK]

Thanks for the write up Hopper. It was definitely worth the time to read it.

 

[OkieAviator]

Don’t think it was a pause, but I was busy with my own job as a PM and like I said above, said just out on the freq, hey man fly the airplane. Knew he was going back in the clouds to try again and was already stressed from hearing his radio calls, and hoped I could talk him through and give any help I could to bring him to a safe landing.

Was an interesting listen. Hard to comprehend that the pilot was instrument rated.

 

[Ravioli]

I think Sully joined PoA and started posting about his heroics right after his adventure.

C'mon troll spotters. You buying this?

Next we'll have a new member posting his adventure flying a Cirrus when a helpful Jet Blue guy saved his bacon.

 

[denverpilot]

Likely good info, but too long to read.

Considering it's from the horse's mouth, probably worth with the 60 secs to read it. Now if it were one of Nate's posts? Yeah I'm skipping it.

Don’t bring me into your ADHD poster child reading comprehension problems where sound bytes and TV have made it impossible for you to read more than a sentence at a time.

Not my fault I went to a school that demanded reading and writing and wasn’t using “Huked on Foniks”, and also taught touch typing on an IBM Selectric.

Good job @Hopper88. You filled in what I heard in the recording where you guys seemed “aware” of that pilot’s problems before you were handed off to JAX, and that had me puzzled and knowing there was more to the story. Reading your write up cleared that up for me.

Hope the Cirrus guy got some help with his buttonology. Or got the glideslope indicator fixed.

These guys around here that can’t read more than a sentence without complaining, there’s probably no hope for them. War and Peace would probably kill them. Memorizing Shakespeare is right out. We’ll find them a nice coloring book or something. Work them up to Hemingway, perhaps...

 

[Kritchlow]

Don’t bring me into your ADHD poster child reading comprehension problems where sound bytes and TV have made it impossible for you to read more than a sentence at a time.

Not my fault I went to a school that demanded reading and writing and wasn’t using “Huked on Foniks”, and also taught touch typing on an IBM Selectric.

Good job @Hopper88. You filled in what I heard in the recording where you guys seemed “aware” of that pilot’s problems before you were handed off to JAX, and that had me puzzled and knowing there was more to the story. Reading your write up cleared that up for me.

Hope the Cirrus guy got some help with his buttonology. Or got the glideslope indicator fixed.

These guys around here that can’t read more than a sentence without complaining, there’s probably no hope for them. War and Peace would probably kill them. Memorizing Shakespeare is right out. We’ll find them a nice coloring book or something. Work them up to Hemingway, perhaps...

I love you my friend, but too long to read.
My English teacher was all about short, sweet, and to the point.

Just can't hang for multiple graphs.... although I do try.

 

[denverpilot]

I love you my friend, but too long to read.
My English teacher was all about short, sweet, and to the point.

Just can't hang for multiple graphs.... although I do try.

That wasn’t an English teacher, that was a memo teacher.

And it definitely wasn’t an English Lit teacher.

Or a multi-lingual Lit teacher.

I had one of those who was ex-military for a headmaster for a number of years.

Reading whole books and writing almost as much, went hand in hand with the military drill team with real (unloaded) rifles for all grades 1-6, and square dancing on Fridays. And memorization and recitation of poetry.

It was an odd place. Helped me slack a lot once I hit a public high school, though.

The reading assignment is five pages? Okay... done. This place is weird. We usually had to read about a book per week at my old school. A book per semester?! Seriously?

It’s Catcher In The Rye, and they think its controversial and edgy?

From a teacher who thinks he’s some sort of well-read Communist?

Who smokes weed out behind the school and thinks none of the students realize those aren’t cigarettes he’s pulling from that cigarette box?

Mmm. Suburban public school. What a great bastion of academic excellence. Hahahaha.

Sure appreciate that old headmaster at the previous place, though. He’s probably dead by now.

 

[Palmpilot]

I think Sully joined PoA and started posting about his heroics right after his adventure.

C'mon troll spotters. You buying this?

Next we'll have a new member posting his adventure flying a Cirrus when a helpful Jet Blue guy saved his bacon.

 

[midlifeflyer]

As I’m the JBLU pilot who helped and just wanted to explain more of the situation.

***

Again, even after I finished the night I thought of ways I could have said or done things differently but in the end the pilot got on the ground safely and that’s all that really matter in the end.

I just listened to the audio. You did a FANTASTIC job. Of course your post-flight "debriefing" will have you thinking of ways you could have been "better." That’s only natural. But, even in the comfort of my chair with 20/20 hindsight, I didn’t see much.

In terms of what happened, there are so many things possible on both the equipment and pilot ends, I'm not gonna speculate.

 

[OkieAviator]

Just noticed in that picture it looks like that gentleman has the barrel of that shotgun on his foot....

 

[CC268]

I just wanna know if this fella was IR or not. I can't imagine he was.