Jesse's new laptop

[Steve]

Jesse got a new computer?

 

[gibbons]

Jesse got a new computer?

According to Bob Miller he did.

 

[Henning]

You don't have to emulate Windows. You can run Windows natively. There is no performance loss running Windows natively.

Ok, I don't know enough to be in the p-ing match, so my question is a straight up no agenda interogative.

By saying run Windows OS natively on the Mac machine, does that mean you can start with a clean slate hard drive and load Windows?

Second, when operating Windows on a Mac machine, how do you handle the "right click" functions? That was the problem I was running into before with some of my navigation programs and CAD type design programs.

 

[jason]

Ok, I don't know enough to be in the p-ing match, so my question is a straight up no agenda interogative.

By saying run Windows OS natively on the Mac machine, does that mean you can start with a clean slate hard drive and load Windows?

Yup. You can either run windows inside of OS X (with a sight performance penalty) or you can install windows to the hard drive and boot straight into it.

Second, when operating Windows on a Mac machine, how do you handle the "right click" functions? That was the problem I was running into before with some of my navigation programs and CAD type design programs.

Either...

1. Hold down the *right* command/apple key when you click. Or...
2. Buy a standard USB two button mouse and use that.

 

[tonycondon]

What does Bob Miller think? Mac or PC?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Sigh. It's pretty pointless to play a price game. There is a lot more to this than a couple of specs. Initial purchase price is nothing. If the damn thing falls apart in a year and I fail to do my job at a critical time the damage done will by far exceed the cost of the laptop several times over again..

Pretty much the same as any good tool, whether computer, wrenches, or lab equipment.

So now we're talking about a $226 price difference. What is the build quality of that Dell? Do they speak English? Can I run Mac OS X? Those are the questions that really matter. I can pretty much promise you I would destroy a cheap Dell over the course of a couple years. .

I don't know whether they speak English or not- I haven't called Dell in about 10 years or so. I don't know what you do to your computers but I found Dells to take the abuse of business travel fairly well. I managed to drop my computer bag a couple of times- no problems as yet.

Having said that, I wonder about some of our sales reps (where ever I have worked)- Some of them have many more problems than others with their computers, and their multiple replacements as well.

There's probably a reason that most computer I see on my travels are Dell. I needed to tape my business card on mine since they all look the same and the TSA idiots seem to try their best to mix everyone's stuff together.

If you compare a well built business laptop against a MacBook Pro price isn't even part of the equation anymore. It really comes down to build quality and how productive the user can be on the platform.

No argument there...

The Unix core of Mac OS X is well worth $200 to me. The amount of time I can save by far exceeds the cost of the laptop over the course of time.

And that's the important thing.

 

[mikea]

Ok, I don't know enough to be in the p-ing match, so my question is a straight up no agenda interogative.

By saying run Windows OS natively on the Mac machine, does that mean you can start with a clean slate hard drive and load Windows?

Yeah. But you won't want to do that. Most who try using the OS X find little reason to go back to Windows except when needed. Steve Gibson used what was called Boot Camp and kept resizing the disk to make the Windows partition smaller until he decided he didn't'need the Windows side at all.

You can run Windows in a virtual machine using Parallels or VMWare Fusion. Thats' the hot setup as long as you don't really need Windows to have all of the hardware power. Ypu run Windows and OS X at the same time and best of all, the Windows "computer" is a file to the Mac so you can copy and duplicate it at will to recover from Windows ills.

I have Windows in Parallels. I went for almost 6 months before I needed to use it, although I'll admit I'm using my dedicated Windows computer for work.

I surrendered and bought a new copy of Quicken for Windows (they haven't updated the Mac version and it sucks) so I'll be using the VM more soon. I read that the Windows version sucks as much but at least it's a current suckage. As above, in a VM I can clone the machine at will so i don't have to worry so much about crashes with my data.

Second, when operating Windows on a Mac machine, how do you handle the "right click" functions? That was the problem I was running into before with some of my navigation programs and CAD type design programs.

You get a third party mouse from the start, but all of the Windows installs have drivers to make the Apple-click look like right click to Windows.

Mac laptops make the right click easy on the touchpad, too. You just touch with two fingers.

I'm using a Logitech Bluetoooh mouse that I love. Any USB mouse works, too - even a Microsoft mouse.

 

[jesse]

Ok, I don't know enough to be in the p-ing match, so my question is a straight up no agenda interogative.

By saying run Windows OS natively on the Mac machine, does that mean you can start with a clean slate hard drive and load Windows?

Yes. You can run it completely native to where Windows starts up when you press the power button. You can also run it in a virtual machine within Mac OS X. Given the speed of processors these days you really can't tell the difference. But if the virtual machine doesn't cut it--yes--you can run Windows just like it is a PC.

Second, when operating Windows on a Mac machine, how do you handle the "right click" functions? That was the problem I was running into before with some of my navigation programs and CAD type design programs.

Just tap the touch pad with two fingers at the same time and it'll right click. You can always use any PC USB mouse as well.

 

[gprellwitz]

I needed to tape my business card on mine since they all look the same and the TSA idiots seem to try their best to mix everyone's stuff together.

I put my AOPA sticker on the cover!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Macbook Pro: 15 inch screen, 2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 gig RAM, 250GB HD, GeForce 8600 (512)
$2499

Dell XPS M1530: 15.4 inch screen, 2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 gig RAM, 250 GB HD, Geforce 8400 (128)
$1194

$1300 difference. Ouch.

Both have cameras built in, the dell having a 2.0MP camera, the macbook unknown, since its not a feature that's really published. The only difference between the two is that one runs Windows, and the other Runs Mac OSX, and the video card (which admittedly sucks, IMO).

Base price: Dell $1398, Apple $1999. (I don't know where you got $1194 from, I couldn't find the 1530 at that price.)

I couldn't get an M1530 configured with a 2.5GHz processor (2.0, 2.2, 2.4, or 2.6 were the options). So, I configured them both with 2.4GHz. Apple: Included. Dell: $250.

It's also possible to get rid of the video card which you say sucks and have the same one that's on the Mac, the NVidia 8600. Apple: Included. Dell: $150.

To get them both to the same 250GB 5400rpm SATA hard drive, add $50 to the Mac and $25 to the Dell. Apple comes standard with 200GB, Dell with only 120GB.

The 802.11n high-speed WiFi on the Mac is also optional on the Dell. There goes another $25.

So, the tally now is Dell $1798, Apple $2049.

Now normally, I don't have to go any farther than the hardware to make the Mac the better buy. BUT... What's the difference? Well, Mac OS X isn't lobotomized, you get ALL the features. So, if we add the Windows Ultimate edition, there goes another $150. Suddenly there's only a $100 difference.

Then, I saw a few other options, like how they'll happily charge you to move your stuff from your old machine. Apple's Migration Assistant does that quickly, painlessly, and FREE.

But, you win this time. You didn't last time. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=180018&postcount=20 I just was so happy to see ya at Gaston's that I decided not to make you eat your words (which you said you'd do in that thread if anyone could find an equivalent Mac cheaper.)

Anyway, let's try another example, toward the lower end where PC's supposedly rule the world: A mid-range MacBook vs. Dell's XPS M1330. Both have 13" displays.

Apple: Base price $1299. Dell: Base price $999.

2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo. Apple: Included. Dell: $175.
2GB RAM. Apple: Included. Dell: $50.
160GB hard drive. Apple: Included. Dell: $50.
802.11n high-speed WiFi. Apple: Included. Dell: $25.
Bluetooth. Apple: Included. Dell: $20.
55WHr battery. Apple: Included. Dell: $30.

Total: Dell $1349, Apple $1299.

So, clearly there are examples in which both companies come out ahead in price. However, the OWT about "Macs are always way more expensive" simply IS NO LONGER TRUE.

Better yet, trying to buy the one from apple gives a "Hmm, the page you’re looking for can’t be found," while the Dell page works

Weird... I got that once too, but it worked fine when I tried again. That's F'ed up.

 

[EdFred]

But can I build my own Mac?

Like physically build it myself?

 

[jesse]

But can I build my own Mac?

Like physically build it myself?

Sort of. Very unsupported. But if you build the right combination of Intel hardware you can install bootleg versions of Mac OS X.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Hmmm. So with the price thing, since I've never had the Mac be more expensive since I've been doing the price comparison (8 years or so), I decided to try it with the computer I'd really buy today, should I need one. (I don't - My June '06 MacBook Pro 17" still runs with all the speed I need and has taken a severe beating in the truck including several dents in the metal case when things caused it to go flying, and it runs great.)

So, here goes. The competitors: Apple MacBook Pro 17" (base price $2799), Dell XPS M1730 (base price $2399).

2.5GHz Core 2 Duo. Apple: Included. Dell: $125.
2GB RAM: Included. (both)
Hard drive: OK, this is a problem. Apple includes a 250GB 5400rpm drive. Dell includes a 120GB (are you f'in kiddin' me???) 7200rpm drive. Dell's only option is a 320GB 5400rpm drive, or a selection of RAID setups. Closest I can get them is a 300GB on the Mac and 320GB on the Dell. Apple: $75. Dell: $150.
Video: NVidia 512MB. Apple: Included. Dell: $300.
WiFi N: Apple: Included. Dell: $35.
Bluetooth: Apple: Included. Dell: $20.

Final score: Apple $2874, Dell $3029. Boo yah.

 

[gprellwitz]

But can I build my own Mac?

Like physically build it myself?

I wouldn't want to try that with ANY laptop! Desktop, sure, but you're right that it isn't something you'd want to try for a Mac, regardless of form factor. It's sort of lost its appeal in the last decade; for me, at least.

 

[jwriteclub]

Ok,

Let me just weigh in for a moment here. I'd take DOS (no windows) over OS X.

I'd take a fraking no OS machine with a card reader over OS X. I HATE, HATE, HATE OS X. I'm not saying that I hate people who use it. But what an over hyped obfuscation of the UNIX core.

I used SuSE until Novel started charging now I use KUbuntu and Windows Vista. I have never had Vista Crash (except with stuff that I wrote myself). 10.5.1 Kernel Panicked all the time. I haven't upgraded to 10.5.2 yet.

As for hardware I have (4?, 5?) acer laptops which are indestructible and quite cheap. I have a MacBook Pro which has had a chain of hardware problems (like my previous 2 macs).

Furthermore, the new Windows Home Server is a huge improvement over TimeMachine, although I use FreeNAS and RSync for my own backups.

Objective-C makes me want to hurt myself.

VLC is an awesome media player that handles QT and WMV media.

I'm sorry I'm tweaking out, but this orgy of Mac loving makes me want to go play with my SGI.

~ Christopher

P.S. The lack of a two button mouse on the Apple Laptops is offensive.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

10.5.1 Kernel Panicked all the time. I haven't upgraded to 10.5.2 yet.

Do it. I wasn't getting kernel panics under 10.5.1 (though I did ages ago before a firmware update fixed it), but I was getting weird crashes that seemed to start with various Apple software hanging up and it'd spread. I usually didn't manage to get a "nice" reboot in before it ate up the whole machine. I regretted upgrading as fast as I did because 10.4.x was rock solid.

Since the 10.5.2 upgrade, it's been rock solid. I dunno what they did, but it's fixed.

P.S. The lack of a two button mouse on the Apple Laptops is offensive.

Why? Two fingers down, and you've got your second button (though you may have to turn that on in System Preferences.)

Of course, we're way better off than when King Steve decided to not put arrow keys on the original Mac keyboard to force people to use that newfangled mouse thingie...

BTW, I'll happily buy you an old DOS machine off eBay in exchange for your MacBook Pro, but it sounds like you're actually developing things on Mac OS X?

 

[gprellwitz]

I used SuSE until Novel started charging now I use KUbuntu and Windows Vista. I have never had Vista Crash (except with stuff that I wrote myself).

I've got some sort of a problem with my Gateway machine with Vista that causes it to shutdown cold (not blue screen, not freeze, but screen goes black and everything stops) when resizing video playback sometimes. Figure it's a driver problem with the ATI card I've got in there.

 

[mikea]

The end to all arguments. Not only are these merely the system sounds built in to the Mac, so is the music software (Garage Band, which has a LOT more more real instruments and even singers.)

I happened to catch a demo of "Magic Garage Band" at the Apple store Monday. Lotta fun.

 

[Henning]

The end to all arguments. Not only are these merely the system sounds built in to the Mac, so is the music software (Garage Band, which has a LOT more more real instruments and even singers.)

I happened to catch a demo of "Magic Garage Band" at the Apple store Monday. Lotta fun.

Sorry, but that demo sure ain't gonna sell me a mac...

 

[tdager]

So, if you just want to play games, just get a Dell or something. Better yet, a Wii or an XBox.

Wooohaaaa there homey. I am not going to get into the OS wars, but as a former gamaholic, do not EVER confuse the gaming capabilities of a decent PC with a game console.

Game consoles have their place, do not get me wrong, but they are definitely NOT a "better yet" solution to true hard-core gaming.

Now...back to the lame, useless, and neverending OS wars!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Wooohaaaa there homey. I am not going to get into the OS wars, but as a former gamaholic, do not EVER confuse the gaming capabilities of a decent PC with a game console.

Game consoles have their place, do not get me wrong, but they are definitely NOT a "better yet" solution to true hard-core gaming.

Uh, OK. Depends what you're into, I guess. First-person shooter, PC's probably better. Some things do work better with a console-style controller. But what do I know, I actually try to get stuff done so I really don't care.

 

[Henning]

Uh, OK. Depends what you're into, I guess. First-person shooter, PC's probably better. Some things do work better with a console-style controller. But what do I know, I actually try to get stuff done so I really don't care.

From what I've seen, those controllers come in a USB model for a PC.