I've had it with Type Certificated aircraft...

Bell206 said:
There already exists a regulatory path around those nasty stamped-part-gatekeepers where you "can just go to NAPA or roll my own" on your current TC aircraft.
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What is that regulatory path?
 
fasteddie said:
What is that regulatory path?
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The Part 43 alteration path and by extension the Part 21 owner-produced parts path. The FAA provides further guidance with AC 23-27 which contains examples of parts you can procure from your local NAPA store or other "non-FAA-stamped gatekeeper network." And while not a true "regulatory" path, the aircraft salvage/used part market offers a wide-variety of previously "FAA-stamped" parts but at prices closer to what NAPA would sell an equivalent non-aviation part. It takes a bit more work and perseverance to follow these paths, but they provided substantial savings to those owners I assisted and kept a majority of them in their TC aircraft vs switching to E/AB.
 
The biggest reason a lot of Canucks didn't switch to Owner-Maintenance was the fear of lost resale value, not so much the bar to US entry. But, as I told some that asked, you can lose $20K resale value, or pay your mechanic much more than $20K over the time you own the thing. Many of these OM airplanes are a the low end of the market, anyway. By law they are fixed-gear, fix-pitch propeller airplanes have no more than four seats. There's a list of eligible models, and there are a few that have retracts and constant-speed, but they were included early and are rather rare sorts anyway, like the Bellanca 14 series and the Colonial Skimmer. An owner can apply to have his model added to the list if it qualifies. The list: https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/transport-c...ns/sor-96-433/part5-standards-a507sh-1837.htm
 
The folk I talked to did not like the inability to return of certified status
 
Caramon13 said:
Nice aircraft, I was watching a few videos though and they go for $130-$220K in price. Half that gets you a certified aircraft with similar functionality.
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You can buy a new (or nearly new) IFR capable certified aircraft for $65-$110K?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You can buy a new (or nearly new) IFR capable certified aircraft for $65-$110K?
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Never said new. I said certified aircraft with similar functionality. I bought my aircraft for less than 40k and it could do all of what that aircraft can. Who needs glass panels and piped leather seating when you are training? Or even for daily flights? There's a lot of extra stuff in there you don't need. Plus it is still a two seater LSA that cruises at 100 knots. All window dressing...
 
hindsight2020 said:
How does one go about converting an S-LSA into E-LSA? I ask from the perspective of gaining conditional inspection authority as a non-builder.
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It's a pretty straightforward process. I used Brian and Carol Carpenter at Rainbow Aviation Services in Corning, CA, to do the inspection and submit the paperwork to the FAA. Brian is an A&P/IA and DAR specializing in Light Sport. After the S-LSA to E-LSA conversion, I took the 16 hour Light Sport Repairman - Inspection class at Rainbow, and with the course graduation certificate I went to the Oakland, CA FSDO and completed the application for an FAA Light Sport Repairman - Inspection Certificate. Three weeks later, the certificate came in the mail; the certificate number is the same as my private pilot certificate number. I now perform my own maintenance and condition inspections.

These are the instructions I received from Carol Carpenter in preparation for the S-LSA to E-LSA conversion. The cost in 2016 was around $400.
Carol Carpenter said:
Converting SLSA to ELSA

The following steps must be completed:

- You will need to have a new placard that says "Experimental" The Special Light Sport will need to be removed

- and you will need a new passenger warning placard (we have one of these in stock)

You should buy the placards but not change them out until you arrive in Corning.

- Complete a new 8130-6 (Application for Airworthiness Certificate.

- Create a Program letter. (we have a master we can create this for you)

- Provide current air airworthiness certificate for the airplane and current operating limitations/flight restrictions (these get turned in and you receive a complete new set for ELSA).

- Provide aircraft/Engine log books showing the aircraft is current and all AD's and Safety Directives have been complied with. And it is still within the time frame of the last annual.

Warm Regards,
Carol Carpenter
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I purchased the EXPERIMENTAL and passenger warning placards from Aircraft Spruce.
I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Photo by Jack Fleetwood.
3947cr1k.jpg
 
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RV-12 with 20 gals can carry 2 people that weigh 212 pounds and fly 581 to 660 miles at 121 to 135 mph for $87,975.
RV-14 with 50 gals can carry 2 people that weigh 255 pounds and fly 925 to 1080 miles at 169 to 193 mph, but it doesn't have removable wings.

From what I understand, both are easier to build than other Van's kits. I am guessing most RV-12 owners don't remove the wings, because they don't have too. It didn't look that hard or time consuming. I guess if I needed to do it single handed, I would design some sort of cart. Unless I was a sport pilot, I would register the aircraft as EAB.
 
tsts4 said:
Why? Sport Pilots can fly E-AB LSAs.
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Can they fly an EAB or does it have to be E-LSA? I am not familiar with the ability to fly IMC with an E-LSA, so my first thought is to go with something I am familiar with.
 
jaymark6655 said:
Can they fly an EAB or does it have to be E-LSA? I am not familiar with the ability to fly IMC with an E-LSA, so my first thought is to go with something I am familiar with.
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A sport pilot can fly any aircraft that meets LSA parameters regardless of said aircraft's certification be it standard (eg a J-3 Cub), S-LSA, E-LSA, or E-AB.

Sport Pilots can't fly IFR at all. Instrument rated private pilots can fly an LSA IFR if the LSA is properly equipped IAW 91.205 and its op limits (in the case of an S-LSA, E-SLA or E-AB) authorize it.
 
tsts4 said:
A sport pilot can fly any aircraft that meets LSA parameters regardless of said aircraft's certification be it standard (eg a J-3 Cub), S-LSA, E-LSA, or E-AB.

Sport Pilots can't fly IFR at all. Instrument rated private pilots can fly an LSA IFR if the LSA is properly equipped IAW 91.205 and its op limits (in the case of an S-LSA, E-SLA or E-AB) authorize it.
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Thanks. That makes me wonder even more why people were upset about not being able to change standard airworthiness over to LSA if it doesn't impact the pilot ability to use them, very strange. Also seems that an LSA can fly under IFR or at night as long as the pilot is appropriately rated and the aircraft operating limitations allow it.
 
jaymark6655 said:
Thanks. That makes me wonder even more why people were upset about not being able to change standard airworthiness over to LSA if it doesn't impact the pilot ability to use them, very strange.
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People want to convert to E-LSA for the maintenance advantages.
 
Dana said:
People want to convert to E-LSA for the maintenance advantages.
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Plus, someone with an actual sport pilot certificate can't do the preventive maintenance on a standard category aircraft that a private pilot can.
 
Tom-D said:
The folk I talked to did not like the inability to return of certified status
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Because they had wanted to return it to certified to regain the resale value. They wanted the best of both worlds, which the regulators knew would present risks to an unwary buyer. O-M allows the owner to do the maintenance and inspections, and some of those folks will do some crazy stuff that might be hard to see and could cause trouble.
 
this may be better for a separate thread....but I'll start here since it seems a natural part of the conversation.
and please have patience... I was out of the game somewhat for 13 years....
I understand the concept of Sport Pilot for licencing...and that they have certain limitations
but I'm a bit lost with the different aircraft certifications...
I'm seeing mention of
S-LSA, E-LSA, E-AB, and maybe others.
what do the various experimental certs mean in practical terms?
 
Brad W said:
I'm seeing mention of
S-LSA, E-LSA, E-AB, and maybe others.
what do the various experimental certs mean in practical terms?
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LSA - not a certificate type - an airplane that meets the weight, seat, speed, etc. requirements that allow it to be flown by a sport pilot.
E-AB - experimental amateur built - A homebuilt aircraft. may or may not be an LSA. Required to meet the 51% rule...
S-LSA - factory built under the Special LSA rules - meets the ASTM "consensuses" rules.
E-LSA - derivative of an S-LSA - either built at home or converted from S-LSA. Does not need to meet the 51% rule.

More than you want to read: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...medical-103-glider-lsa-got-kinda-long.101402/
 
Brad W said:
this may be better for a separate thread....but I'll start here since it seems a natural part of the conversation.
and please have patience... I was out of the game somewhat for 13 years....
I understand the concept of Sport Pilot for licencing...and that they have certain limitations
but I'm a bit lost with the different aircraft certifications...
I'm seeing mention of
S-LSA, E-LSA, E-AB, and maybe others.
what do the various experimental certs mean in practical terms?
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S-LSA: Special light-sport aircraft are factory-built aircraft specifically designed for the LSA standards. S-LSAs meet ASTM (American Society for Testing & Materials) consensus standards and are ready-to-fly when sold.

E-LSA: Experimental light sport aircraft are sold as kits, and can be built at home in accordance with the manufacturer's manual and instructions. E-LSA manufacturers are also ASTM-compliant. E-SLA's have to be exact copies of the S-LSA upon which they are based until certification after which the builder is free to make modifications to the design as long as LSA parameters aren't violated. They annual condition inspection can be performed by a standard A&P mechanic or a repairman with an FAA LSA maintenance rating

E-AB: Experimental amateur-built aircraft are not all also categorized as light sport aircraft. But a light sport aircraft can be classified as experimental amateur-built. E-AB aircraft are homebuilt aircraft, and if they meet the LSA design and performance requirements, they can be flown by sport pilots. They annual condition inspection can be performed by a standard A&P mechanic or the builder of that specific airframe with a repairman's certificate.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
LSA - not a certificate type - an airplane that meets the weight, seat, speed, etc. requirements that allow it to be flown by a sport pilot.
E-AB - experimental amateur built - A homebuilt aircraft. may or may not be an LSA. Required to meet the 51% rule...
S-LSA - factory built under the Special LSA rules - meets the ASTM "consensuses" rules.
E-LSA - derivative of an S-LSA - either built at home or converted from S-LSA. Does not need to meet the 51% rule.

More than you want to read: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...medical-103-glider-lsa-got-kinda-long.101402/
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Beat me to it, was literally typing same thing. :)
For S-LSA FAA is not involved in design, testing, building or quality control. From what I understand: for an aircraft to be E-LSA, a S-LSA version or standard certified aircraft must exist that the E-LSA matches exactly.
 
jaymark6655 said:
why people were upset about not being able to change standard airworthiness over to LSA
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FYI: it was not a change from "standard airworthiness" to LSA as there are TC'd aircraft that meet LSA requirements. Rather it was classifying a TC'd aircraft under a new category, primary non-commercial, which allowed an owner to perform maintenance on it. It's similar to the TCCA owner maintained system.
 
how many aircraft are we talking about? most of the people think of certified aircraft as a Cessna/piper type.
 
thanks folks!!
gonna go read that thread you linked to Capt.

I have my PPL, but I do like the idea of doing some of my own maintenance.....and I suppose LSA rules could prove useful for the type of flying I'll ever do any the foreseable future.
Among the several focus points I had planned....I was planning to spend some serious time over in the LSA area at Sun n Fun....
 
tsts4 said:
S-LSA: Special light-sport aircraft are factory-built aircraft specifically designed for the LSA standards. S-LSAs meet ASTM (American Society for Testing & Materials) consensus standards and are ready-to-fly when sold. They can be maintained by a standard A&P mechanic or a repairman with an FAA LSA maintenance rating.

E-LSA: Experimental light sport aircraft are sold as kits, and can be built at home in accordance with the manufacturer's manual and instructions. E-LSA manufacturers are also ASTM-compliant. E-SLA's have to be exact copies of the S-LSA upon which they are based until certification after which the builder is free to make modifications to the design as long as LSA parameters aren't violated. They can be maintained by a standard A&P mechanic or a repairman with an FAA LSA maintenance rating

E-AB: Experimental amateur-built aircraft are not all also categorized as light sport aircraft. But a light sport aircraft can be classified as experimental amateur-built. E-AB aircraft are homebuilt aircraft, and if they meet the LSA design and performance requirements, they can be flown by sport pilots. They can be maintained by a standard A&P mechanic or the builder of that specific airframe with a repairman's certificate.
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Not quite correct. E-AB and E-LSA can be maintained by anybody. Only the annual condition inspection requires an A&P or repairman certificate.
 
What a horrific regulatory nightmare this is...

I'd say it is time for wiping the books and starting over with workable regulations that allow for homebuilding as well as production manufacture of GA aircraft.

My premise for this thread was more so regulatory fatigue than inconvenience.
 
Dana said:
Not quite correct. E-AB and E-LSA can be maintained by anybody. Only the annual condition inspection requires an A&P or repairman certificate.
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Absolutely! I should have made that distinction as that’s what I was try to convey but sometimes what I’m thinking and what I type disconnects.
 
Caramon13 said:
Never said new. I said certified aircraft with similar functionality. I bought my aircraft for less than 40k and it could do all of what that aircraft can. Who needs glass panels and piped leather seating when you are training? Or even for daily flights? There's a lot of extra stuff in there you don't need. Plus it is still a two seater LSA that cruises at 100 knots. All window dressing...
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Eh, some of the nicer SLSA’s are hitting 125 knots true airspeed and that 915 Bristell can climb to 10K in 7 minutes and cruise at 145 knots true when there.
 
tsts4 said:
S-LSA: Special light-sport aircraft are factory-built aircraft specifically designed for the LSA standards. S-LSAs meet ASTM (American Society for Testing & Materials) consensus standards and are ready-to-fly when sold. They can be maintained by a standard A&P mechanic or a repairman with an FAA LSA maintenance rating.

E-LSA: Experimental light sport aircraft are sold as kits, and can be built at home in accordance with the manufacturer's manual and instructions. E-LSA manufacturers are also ASTM-compliant. E-SLA's have to be exact copies of the S-LSA upon which they are based until certification after which the builder is free to make modifications to the design as long as LSA parameters aren't violated. They can be maintained by a standard A&P mechanic or a repairman with an FAA LSA maintenance rating

E-AB: Experimental amateur-built aircraft are not all also categorized as light sport aircraft. But a light sport aircraft can be classified as experimental amateur-built. E-AB aircraft are homebuilt aircraft, and if they meet the LSA design and performance requirements, they can be flown by sport pilots. They can be maintained by a standard A&P mechanic or the builder of that specific airframe with a repairman's certificate.
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Almost. An E-AB can be maintained or altered by anyone at all. An A&P or the builder with a Repairman’s certificate has to do the condition inspection, but no certificate is required to wrench on it.
 
ateamer said:
Almost. An E-AB can be maintained or altered by anyone at all. An A&P or the builder with a Repairman’s certificate has to do the condition inspection, but no certificate is required to wrench on it.
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I know — see my previous post.
 
tsts4 said:
Instrument rated private pilots can fly an LSA IFR if the LSA is properly equipped IAW 91.205 and its op limits (in the case of an S-LSA, E-SLA or E-AB) authorize it.
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:yeahthat:
My E-LSA Operating Limitations say:
N601KE Operating Limitations - November 26 2016 said:
Day VFR flight is authorized.

Night flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in FAR 91.205(c) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91.

Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in FAR 91.205(d) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of person returning the aircraft to service.

Aircraft instruments and equipment installed and used under CFR Part 91.205 must be inspected and maintained in accordance with the requirements of CFR Part 91. Any maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records.
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My LSA is maintained both night flight and instrument flight current.
 
ateamer said:
Almost. An E-AB can be maintained or altered by anyone at all. An A&P or the builder with a Repairman’s certificate has to do the condition inspection, but no certificate is required to wrench on it.
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No problem same as always as a A&P. what is the advantage?
 
Tom-D said:
No problem same as always as a A&P. what is the advantage?
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I suppose since no IA is required for the condition inspection sign off it potentially simplifies the process. I know for me it does plus it’s cheaper.
 
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Tom-D said:
No problem same as always as a A&P. what is the advantage?
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The advantage is that no A&P is needed for maintenance and repairs, and no STC or field approval is needed for even major alterations.
 
Tom-D said:
No problem same as always as a A&P. what is the advantage?
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You need new fuel tanks, you fabricate new fuel tanks. With flush caps.
You want to replace old Grabyear POS brakes, you install new Cleveland / Matco / Whatever without fussing about the effing part number.
You don't need to figure out if you need to file a duplicate 337.

Or, if you are NOT an A&P, which is the case for most aircraft owners.
You need new fuel tanks, you fabricate new fuel tanks. With flush caps.
You want to replace old Grabyear POS brakes, you install new Cleveland / Matco / Whatever without fussing about the effing part number.
You don't need to figure out if you need to file a duplicate 337.

Or, did I misunderstand the question?
 
The biggest disadvantage to flying experimental is that some life insurance policies exclude coverage. Not all, but some.

Liability is another...
 
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