Is this normal, or kind of a jerk move?

[jesse]

To the more experienced CFIs, what would be the proper way to "void" solo endorsements? I would think the ones in the log book (initial one if it's within 90 days), or the latest 90 day one) would be the ones to adjust. The endorsements on the student certificate simply state the training took place. That fact doesn't change. Remove the corresponding logbook one to recend the PIC privilages. Amend the text with some sort of expiration date?

Always learning...

I've never "pulled" an endorsement. At the time I provided the endorsement -- I had given them all the required training and they earned the endorsement.

If I gave an endorsement to a student for solo privileges and later found out they were taking people for airplane rides I would inform the student that I am not longer their instructor and I would call the FSDO to report their violation of the regulations. I can't just rip their endorsement out of their logbook.

 

[Captain]

What about revoking the endorsement with a date? Would it have made the situation better if the CFI lined through the endorsement with a blurb, "endorsement revoked on (today's date)"

 

[vintage cessna]

What about revoking the endorsement with a date? Would it have made the situation better if the CFI lined through the endorsement with a blurb, "endorsement revoked on (today's date)"

The endorsement has a self canceling date. Once an endorsement is made, it is made, student pilot or not. If the instructor had given a pilot a complex aircraft endorsement and changed his mind, now what?

 

[DaleB]

Hi all, and thanks for all the feedback. While a few have made some really strong comments about the CFI, I don't think he was trying to be a massive jerk. I think he's a brand new CFI who made a mistake. I'm not particularly interested in stirring up a hornet's nest of trouble for the school/FBO or even the instructor over it before seeing if we can't work out a solution and prevent it happening in the future. While it might be effective to go straight to the FSDO and pull a fire alarm, it probably wouldn't be as constructive as fixing the problem at the root... and doing that has the added advantage of not burning any bridges or causing any problems for the club I just joined.

I'll post an update after I've been down to the FBO to talk to the owner, which I'm going to try to do this afternoon. If I don't make it today I'll be down there tomorrow for sure, we had to reschedule the X/C flight we had planned.

Edit: I attached images of what was done.

 

[Henning]

What about revoking the endorsement with a date? Would it have made the situation better if the CFI lined through the endorsement with a blurb, "endorsement revoked on (today's date)"

Yeah, I had a similar thought although used a different wording than 'revoked' as that had a negative connotation when there is no negative fact.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

He was justified in removing his solo endorsement.

He had reason to believe that the student was no longer capable or safe to continue solo flight? Or, he thought taking a lesson from another instructor will make him unsafe?

He determined that the endorsements were made in error in the first place?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Edit: I attached images of what was done.[/I]

The big problem here, jerkiness aside, is that he wrote "VOID" with no date, essentially making all your solo flights questionable.

And even so... Still a jerk.

 

[poadeleted20]

He was justified in removing his solo endorsement.

On what basis? Discontinuing doing business with that instructor? Hardly.

 

[poadeleted20]

To the more experienced CFIs, what would be the proper way to "void" solo endorsements?

I'm not sure there is one. Best I can imagine would be to add another endorsement saying something like "solo priviliges based on my endorsement of [date] revoked as of this date." That leaves the old endorsements intact to cover the flights already made, but gets the CFI off the hook for anything that happens thereafter. It would, of course, create the potential for a civil suit for damages if that revocation ever cost the pilot a job or the like, and the CFI who did it might then have to justify his/her actions in court -- and saying "the trainee fired me" would probably not be a good answer in that venue.

 

[poadeleted20]

Would an inspector deem that all the solo time, in the piper, was done illegaly since the ensdorsing instructor nullified his sign-off?.

That would be the concern, although I don't think an instructor can "nullify" an endorsement ex post facto, only terminate its future effectivity -- and would probably need justification for that action beyone "s/he stopped flying with me."

 

[Henning]

With the voiding of the presolo training requirements met box I would walk into the flight school and demand all monies to that point be refunded and I most definitely would go to the FSDO. If the flight school refuses with an attitude, sick a lawyer on them, remember, the instructor is an employee and Respondeat Superior applies so they hold all liability for his actions, and his actions were in violation of the law.

That is not a liability concern, I was giving the guy the benefit of the doubt as it being a liability concern, but by scratching that one out it shows that he is defective in mental capacity and should not be a CFI.

 

[poadeleted20]

Edit: I attached images of what was done.

You can't do that ex post facto. That is a violation of Federal law. Further, he did that in a virtually irrevocable fashion -- there is no way to simply correct what he did. About the only thing I can think of that could be done now to save that CFI would be for him to enter new endorsements identical to the old ones dated with the original date including a statement that those other two endorsements were "voided" in error.

 

[LearDriver]

I have never thought of pulling a students endorsements after giving them. If you sign someone for solo you are only on the hook for 90 days with them. My standard practice is to add limitations to the endorsements of first time solos. Visibility, cloud height, x-wind and must have instructor verbal approval prior to each solo flight. Those things will slow down a student from getting too far ahead of themselves.

Another viewpoint might be that the original instructor may have issue with your current instructor. He may not want you soloing on his signature while you are flying with the new instructor. There may be things going on behind the scenes that you are not aware of?

With the old instructor you had to spend 7 hours in the pattern before he would let you solo. Maybe you needed that or the instructor was seeing something negative that you don't realize was going on.

So did you move to an instructor that would give you what you want over what you really need. That more often than not is a reason that many students constantly change instructors.

 

[Greebo]

That's as may be, but the student still logged flights under the first CFI's endorsement that were completely valid and approved by that CFI.

The CFI by *voiding* his endorsement just arbitrarily changed the status of those already executed flights from "right and proper" to "illegal".

 

[Henning]

Another viewpoint might be that the original instructor may have issue with your current instructor. He may not want you soloing on his signature while you are flying with the new instructor. There may be things going on behind the scenes that you are not aware of?

He wouldn't be, different airplane type.

This is just another disheartened fool who wanted to be a pro pilot only to spend $10s of thousands just to discover it sucks as a career move and he'll be eating Ramen for the next several years minimum. He may even have found at that due to the seniority system that if he gets a job with one airline, he has NO lateral movement ability and if his airline should go belly up, he goes back to standing on the floor looking at the payscale ladder.

Nope, it doesn't really matter, what he did is not only inexcusable on a personal level, it's also illegal on a professional level. These are the guys that need to be run out of aviation and why having CFI as the low time/time building job on the way to airlines is the exact WRONG way to run flight training in general.

This guy is living proof that the government just screwed up aviation even further with the FO/ATP rule. It will only serve to drive the problem further along. The long term solution is to make CFI the 1500hr rating and have an ab initio 250hr FO program directed at putting them in that right seat under airline style CRM methods from scratch. You set the trainers up like the DA-20 Falcon editions built with the panel set up for right seat flight instruments.

We have to quit having flight instruction being time building, the results have proven tragic.

 

[LearDriver]

He wouldn't be, different airplane type.

The student and second instructor could switch types and the first instructors worries could become valid. I wouldn't have pulled the endorsement, but I don't know any of the involved people or the real situation.

 

[poadeleted20]

The student and second instructor could switch types and the first instructors worries could become valid.

How? The first instructor is only responsible for what happens within the context of the endorsements he gave, although there is no getting away from that responsibility ex post facto. If the trainee goes to a different aircraft, s/he will need a new logbook endorsement for that new make/model; that will come from the new instructor, so only the new instructor will be responsible for operations in the new aircraft.

 

[DaleB]

Another viewpoint might be that the original instructor may have issue with your current instructor. He may not want you soloing on his signature while you are flying with the new instructor. There may be things going on behind the scenes that you are not aware of?

The two didn't know each other. At least the new one didn't know who the old one was.

With the old instructor you had to spend 7 hours in the pattern before he would let you solo. Maybe you needed that or the instructor was seeing something negative that you don't realize was going on.

Not according to either the new guy, or the one previous who worked for the now-defunct school. I know I'm not up to ATP standards, but given my student pilot status I fly pretty well, according to my instructors.

So did you move to an instructor that would give you what you want over what you really need. That more often than not is a reason that many students constantly change instructors.

This is the first time I have ever willingly changed instructors, and I did it for several reasons. First, the new one is a flying club member, so there are no hoops to jump through to make sure insurance requirements are met. Second, he's available pretty much any time I have an opportunity to fly, and with the club airplane there is VERY little conflict with other reservations (this was sometimes an issue with the school's planes). Third, the old instructor was gone for two weeks, during which time I was accepted as a member of the flying club. I had an opportunity to fly with the current guy, and that went exceedingly well. Not because he's a pushover, but because he's a damned good instructor. He knows how to fly AND how to teach, and helps me figure out how to correct things that I'm doing wrong.

The first time we went up in the 172 he had me do the usual maneuvers. The old CFI has been fine with my steep turns and ground reference; the new guy said the steep turns were nowhere near steep enough and the ground reference maneuvers were way too far out and not precise enough. In less than half an hour we'd fixed both of those problems.

So, yeah, I guess did switch to get someone who gives me what I want. What I want is GOOD flight instruction. High standards, constructive feedback and an experienced instructor.

I've been through several others. The first two were with a flight school that went out of business. The first one got a job that had him out of town for 2-3 weeks at a time, so I had to fly with the second. Then the school went TU. The one who did the solo endorsement was the one the new flight school gave me. This one is the fourth I've hired. If the first one was still around, I'd still be flying with him.

 

[Henning]

The student and second instructor could switch types and the first instructors worries could become valid. I wouldn't have pulled the endorsement, but I don't know any of the involved people or the real situation.

It doesn't matter, the other instructor already established a relationship after the point going forward and will be the FAA's first point of inquest.

The solo endorsements are not my issue here, my issue is that he voided the presolo training box, that show that the move was out of low intelligence levels of spite. Basically he said "I did not give this instruction" and for that he needs to be punished. Since it proves mental instability and poor judgement skills, the better option would be permanent revocation of any instructor ticket as well as being barred from an ATP of flying any paying passengers as PIC.

What we have not taken seriously in flight training in the civilian sector is personality wash out; hell, any wash out at all is missing except for running out of money. You get to keep trying to fool someone you're not mentally deficient until you get it right.

 

[DaleB]

Basically he said "I did not give this instruction" and for that he needs to be punished. Since it proves mental instability and poor judgement skills, the better option would be permanent revocation of any instructor ticket as well as being barred from an ATP of flying any paying passengers as PIC.

Kind of a scorched-earth approach, isn't it? It seems just as likely to me that somewhere in CFI school, he was either told or mis-heard that this is supposed to be done or could be done. It could be that the school policy says you can only solo their airplanes IF you're flying with one of their instructors, so he thought this was the thing to do. I don't know. But I very strongly suspect this is his first experience as a CFI. Everybody makes mistakes when they're starting out... present company excepted, of course, I realize the concept may be difficult for you to accept. Sorry, just yankin' your chain a little. But I'll know more when I go down there and discuss it with them.

 

[N801BH]

Buy a brand new logbook, sit down with the old instructor and advise him that you need to re-create all the entries along with his endorsements because he created a situation that makes it appear that your solo flights may have been done illegally since there are no longer any legible solo endorsements. If he objects, suggest that he either offer you refunds or talk to the FSDO with you.

Having a witness woudn't be a bad idea.

Print out a copy of the regulations regarding logging time and re-creating lost / damaged log books.

This is EXACTLY what I would do..... The scribbled out endorsment I Flare posted looks like crap and he should not have that BS in his logbook. IMHO....

 

[Henning]

Kind of a scorched-earth approach, isn't it?

YES!!! The flight instruction sector needs a flame thrower taken to it.

The system is so broke and misdirected by poor nanny state philosophy that we now have entire cockpits including a spare that do not know how to work their way through an untrained scenario and kill hundreds of people.

We have to scorch hard so we do not make these nanny state omissions in the selection and training of pilots anymore.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Found this old Q&A with Rod Machado on this subject: http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2003/October/200310_Commentary_Since_You_Asked.html

Dear Rod,
I am a newly minted CFI and feel I may have screwed up by endorsing a student. [...] Should I cancel his endorsement, and if so how should I go about doing so? Can I just write VOID over it like a check, or is there an FAA-approved way to do it? [...]
​

Greetings Carl:
[...] First, there's no convenient way for you to rescind a solo endorsement other than tearing it out of his logbook. [...]
​

Well at least he didn't take Machado's advice literally and tear the page out of your logbook!

 

[denverpilot]

I'd want that fixed with a sticker over it that covers up the godawful mess he made and the endorsements put back exactly the way they were.

Lesson learned: Never hand your logbook to someone you don't trust and if they reach for a pen and you don't know what they're doing with it, body tackle them.

Hahaha. Kidding. Kinda. Not really.

 

[DaleB]

I'd want that fixed with a sticker over it that covers up the godawful mess he made and the endorsements put back exactly the way they were.

That's going to be my suggestion.

Lesson learned: Never hand your logbook to someone you don't trust and if they reach for a pen and you don't know what they're doing with it, body tackle them.

Lesson learned, indeed. Believe me.

 

[rottydaddy]

If I gave an endorsement to a student for solo privileges and later found out they were taking people for airplane rides I would inform the student that I am not longer their instructor and I would call the FSDO to report their violation of the regulations. I can't just rip their endorsement out of their logbook.

Or scribble it out.
The alternative you describe sounds more appropriate, and a lot more legal. There has to be some written law that forbids this act of vandalism, property rights aside (?). The CFI makes the endorsement, in part, as a representative of the FAA, right? Can he have a legal right to sidestep the FAA and declare the endorsement as void?

 

[Palmpilot]

While it might be effective to go straight to the FSDO and pull a fire alarm, it probably wouldn't be as constructive as fixing the problem at the root... and doing that has the added advantage of not burning any bridges or causing any problems for the club I just joined.

In my mind, the primary purpose of going to the FSDO would be to make sure that they are on board with whatever means is selected to remedy the problem. If it were me, when it came time to apply for my pilot certificate, I would want something in writing from the FAA that I could to hand to the examiner, indicating that I had dealt with the problem in a satisfactory manner.

 

[Old Geek]

Or scribble it out.
The alternative you describe sounds more appropriate, and a lot more legal. There has to be some written law that forbids this act of vandalism, property rights aside (?). The CFI makes the endorsement, in part, as a representative of the FAA, right? Can he have a legal right to sidestep the FAA and declare the endorsement as void?

Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system...

 

[Captain]

Personally I don't think the 'old' CFI is a jerk. I do think he's inexperienced though. Being new to something and screwing up is different than being a jerk. A jerk does things intentionally.

From the story my take is the 'old' CFI heard he was being replaced and confirmed it. Once it was confirmed he was no longer going to be the instructor for the student he figured he'd remove himself from the equation. Let the new CFI re-endorse if he chooses.

I don't think he thought about how his scratching out the endorsement was going to screw up the flights flown. If he had then maybe he would have left a date.

Obviously I can't get in his head and see what he was thinking, but based on the story that's the picture I get. I'd think once it was explained to this guy (the 'old' CFI) that what he did was out of line and shown how now all those legal flights now appear not so legal.

I'd bet he'd be willing to re-construct the log book if requested or at least sign a new sticker over his 'inexperience throw up' mess. I don't think the FSDO needs to be involved unless he's not willing to correct his mistake.

 

[markb5900]

Legal stuff to the side.
Take the high road. Talk to the FBO/his boss about how to fix the situation.
With his actions, I have to assume a conversation with him would be a waste and probably just make more bad blood.
Explain you really just want to get your log book "in order".
No threats of FSDO or anything AT FIRST. Hopefully you and the FBO can get the situation corrected. Your reputation at the airport will be of one that does the right thing. The CFI's reputation, well, let karma take it's natural course.

If things get ugly at the FBO, then IMHO is the time to take the next step with the FSDO etc..

Just my .02

 

[Henning]

From the story my take is the 'old' CFI heard he was being replaced and confirmed it. Once it was confirmed he was no longer going to be the instructor for the student he figured he'd remove himself from the equation. Let the new CFI re-endorse if he chooses.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt until I saw he not only scratched but VOIDED the pre solo training endorsement. Even if it was a mistake it was a grave one demonstrating his sheer incompetence about the rules he's dedicated to teaching. There are some things you just don't get to take back in life, what he did was a violation of the federal laws.

 

[LearDriver]

Have a conversation with the owner of the school. You really need to have that endorsement in your book to make your solo time legal. You should also request an explanation as to why the CFI defaced your logbook. If you have to make reassurances to him that you will not be flying on his authorization.

 

[Captain]

It's plausible that "VOID" in his mind meant 'void from this point going forward'. I'm not supporting it...just saying he might not be a jerk. The test, in my mind, would be how he handled the blow back. If he stands by what he did then the 'jerk' label applies. If he sees the error of his ways then I'd just chalk it up to a learning experience.

 

[markb5900]

It's plausible that "VOID" in his mind meant 'void from this point going forward'. I'm not supporting it...just saying he might not be a jerk. The test, in my mind, would be how he handled the blow back. If he stands by what he did then the 'jerk' label applies. If he sees the error of his ways then I'd just chalk it up to a learning experience.

Exactly.
People make mistakes, some you can't recover from. Others you can.
I see it go a couple of ways.
1. The OP goes in and asks for help and the FBO says, "you are 100% correct, we are going to fix this for you!!!" and probably the CFI is explained the error of his ways by his boss.
OR
2. The FBO says, "the CFI did the right thing, we have nothing to talk about" in which case the OP moves forward with calling the FSDO etc...

Option 1 ends with everyone (but the cfi) happy.
Option 2 means things will be tense for the OP around the airport.
Hopefully option 1 works out.

 

[Henning]

It's plausible that "VOID" in his mind meant 'void from this point going forward'. I'm not supporting it...just saying he might not be a jerk. The test, in my mind, would be how he handled the blow back. If he stands by what he did then the 'jerk' label applies. If he sees the error of his ways then I'd just chalk it up to a learning experience.

Regardless, this is a mistake that is not of the level to be tolerated of a CFI, it proves they need at minimum a 709 ride on their instructors cert because they are lacking the basics of knowledge required to be rated as competent at the job.

We have to rid the training industry of these problems and get the standards for instructors where they need to be to end this progression of incompetence into the airlines. Either that or we just finish up autonomous airliners and get rid of the airline wannabe time builder idiots from the CFI ranks that way.

 

[TMetzinger]

I just read Rod Machado's reply about putting limitations in followed by ... and if he violates them he's grounded.

Catch-22. The question here is what is the RIGHT way for a CFI to ground a student that makes it clear that the CFI doesn't consider him safe for solo flight any more. As Ron said, I don't think it's enough to say "oh, you went flying with someone else". But a the same time, there should be a way to say "we're terminating our instructor/student relationship, and I'm no longer responsible for you".

 

[Matthew]

Isn't there something that says that any logbook modifications must be made with a strikethrough so you can see what's underneath? Wouldn't putting a sticker over the modifications be the same as using white-out?

As sucky as it may look in the logbook, I'm not so sure I'd want to cover over the un-endorsement.

 

[Matthew]

I just read Rod Machado's reply about putting limitations in followed by ... and if he violates them he's grounded.

Catch-22. The question here is what is the RIGHT way for a CFI to ground a student that makes it clear that the CFI doesn't consider him safe for solo flight any more. As Ron said, I don't think it's enough to say "oh, you went flying with someone else". But a the same time, there should be a way to say "we're terminating our instructor/student relationship, and I'm no longer responsible for you".

Not a CFI here - but, if the endorsement says something like "with my approval", wouldn't that cover the CFI in the case of unauthorized flights? Letting the front desk know the student is 'no longer a student' should drop him from the approved renters list.

Plus, if a new CFI comes along then that CFI would have to put in his own endorsement anyway.

 

[Henning]

Isn't there something that says that any logbook modifications must be made with a strikethrough so you can see what's underneath? Wouldn't putting a sticker over the modifications be the same as using white-out?

As sucky as it may look in the logbook, I'm not so sure I'd want to cover over the un-endorsement.

As far as the log book goes, the best way to go about neatening it up is to get another one and reproduce the original signatures and all. If they refuse take them to court for the value of the training lost (all your time that was learning for solo as well as solo since all that time is lost) as well as throwing him under the buss with the FAA also starting a local campaign to cost the flight school every customer I could find to talk to, heck considering how cheap billboards are anymore, I'd get the one closest to the airport and call them out as cheats.

 

[Captain]

As far as the log book goes, the best way to go about neatening it up is to get another one and reproduce the original signatures and all.

That would be my option.

Henning, I think you're being too hard on this guy. The worlds greatest CFI (Cap'n Ron of course) was a new CFI once and everyone makes mistakes. This isn't a CFI telling a student "it's okay to take passengers on your solo" or "Magneto checks are for losers". It's just a guy severing ties with a student who dumped him (I hope). I can see the logic of his action...obviously I don't agree with them though for obvious reasons.