Is this legal?

dtuuri

dtuuri

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dtuuri
Say a corporate pilot loses his/her medical. So, s/he teams up with a CFI who only has a third class medical. The corporate pilot still gets paid as usual for flying the plane, but the CFI is the legal PIC and gets paid for giving instruction. Do two non-second class medicals make a whole? :confused: Or does this become an illegal 135 operation?

dtuuri
 
seems to me the CFI would need a Second Class to receive compensation. The corporate shouldn't be able to receive compensation for "flying passengers or property." I don't see a problem with him being paid for something else.
 
You need a 2nd class medical to exercise the priviledges of a commercial pilot, which is the minimum requirement for any 135 ops.
 
Who is the PIC?

Whoever the PIC is needs a 2nd class or better.
 
I think the issue of whether or not they were flying under Part 91 would come into play as the main limiting factor.
 
dtuuri said:
Say a corporate pilot loses his/her medical. So, s/he teams up with a CFI who only has a third class medical. The corporate pilot still gets paid as usual for flying the plane, but the CFI is the legal PIC and gets paid for giving instruction. Do two non-second class medicals make a whole? :confused: Or does this become an illegal 135 operation?
Click to expand...

In addition to whatever instructional duties the CFI might be performing, he would be acting as pilot-in-command on a flight that requires the PIC to hold a commercial pilot certificate. My reasoning is that I think the FAA would consider at least part of his pay to be for acting as PIC, because the flight could not take place without his doing that.

That means he would be exercising the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate, which triggers the need for a second-class medical per 61.23(a)(2).
 
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Not legal. Not even close :eek:
Corporate pilot can't receive compensation for flying without a medical. S/he is just a passenger in the left seat!
CFI doesn't need a second class to receive payment for instruction, but is not allowed to fly passengers for hire.
 
Brad Z said:
You need a 2nd class medical to exercise the priviledges of a commercial pilot, which is the minimum requirement for any 135 ops.
Click to expand...

JeffDG said:
Who is the PIC?

Whoever the PIC is needs a 2nd class or better.
Click to expand...

DGlaeser said:
Not legal. Not even close :eek:
Corporate pilot can't receive compensation for flying without a medical. S/he is just a passenger in the left seat!
CFI doesn't need a second class to receive payment for instruction, but is not allowed to fly passengers for hire.
Click to expand...

Oh go on, it can't be that simple. The corporation doesn't trust anybody else except their long-time pilot flying them around, so they arrange to have an instructor give "training" on their flights. Why can't a student get paid for taking "lessons"? Why can't a CFI have passengers while "teaching"?

dtuuri
 
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dtuuri said:
Oh go on, it can't be that simple. The corporation doesn't trust anybody else except their long-time pilot flying them around, so they arrange to have an instructor give "training" on their flights. Why can't a student get paid for taking "lessons"? Why can't a CFI have passengers while "teaching"?

dtuuri
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The student may get paid, but as far as the FAA is concerned, he doesn't exist on the crew roster, any more than a passenger riding in the flight deck would be. So it's clear that the CFI is the PIC and the only legal crew on that flight, regardless of the fact that he may be instructing a "passenger" on the intricacies of flight. Since the CFI is the only legal crew, the FAA would consider at least part of his pay to be compensation for flying the passengers (and/or cargo) and therefore he'd need a class 2 medical.
 
RotorDude said:
...the FAA would consider at least part of his pay to be compensation for flying the passengers (and/or cargo) and therefore he'd need a class 2 medical.
Click to expand...

The CFI used to hold a class 2 medical, but is now relegated to just teaching with a class 3. Therefore, the CFI considers the "part of his pay" for flying passengers to be lost, since teaching earns him/her only half as much as s/he used to make for flying passengers. In other words, s/he is flying the passengers for free while only charging for the teaching.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
The CFI used to hold a class 2 medical, but is now relegated to just teaching with a class 3. Therefore, the CFI considers the "part of his pay" for flying passengers to be lost, since teaching earns him/her only half as much as s/he used to make for flying passengers. In other words, s/he is flying the passengers for free while only charging for the teaching.

dtuuri
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What the CFI considers is irrelevant to the FAA, which would instead follow simple logic and the published rules. The CFI or "student" histories or feelings are irrelevant, otherwise any PPL could fly for pay, and claim that the pay is for rental of his/her pretty face to adorn the cockpit.
In this case, the objective picture is simple: only one legal pilot is flying the plane, which is carrying passengers. The corporation is paying money for it, part of which reaches the pilot. What the payment is called by the parties, or their feelings about it, is irrelevant.
 
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dtuuri said:
The CFI used to hold a class 2 medical, but is now relegated to just teaching with a class 3. Therefore, the CFI considers the "part of his pay" for flying passengers to be lost, since teaching earns him/her only half as much as s/he used to make for flying passengers. In other words, s/he is flying the passengers for free while only charging for the teaching.
Click to expand...

I think you're overlooking the purpose that the corporation has in making the payments. They want the plane to go from point A to point B, carrying whatever persons or property serve their business interests; they need someone who is legal to act as pilot-in-command on that flight, and that is what they are paying for. Providing instruction to the non-current corporate pilot is not the corporation's purpose for ordering the flight to be made, and thus is not the reason that the corporation is making the payments.

QUACK!
 
No medical for the commercial pilot means someone else has to be PIC. He can't even be a required crewmember.

Not only does the CFI needs a 2nd class to be PIC, he has to be on the 135 roster of pilots.

--Carlos V.
 
The question strikes me as the usual, "hmmm, if I do it this way, maybe I can make the FAA think the quacking duck is a peacock" pin dance that invariably fails.
:dunno:
 
midlifeflyer said:
The question strikes me as the usual, "hmmm, if I do it this way, maybe I can make the FAA think the quacking duck is a peacock" pin dance that invariably fails.
:dunno:
Click to expand...

The "usual" version is an FBO takes a request for transportation and sends the passenger off with a CFI giving "dual". In this case, the corporation owns the plane and has a trusted pilot already on the payroll. Does the CFI have an obligation to know the other pilot lost his/her medical? A right to know? So what if s/he does happen to know? Why is it any different than letting a parent ride along in the back seat while junior is getting some hood time in the family Baron, or is that illegal too?

dtuuri
 
I'd certainly be PO'd if I gave instruction without being informed that I was acting as PIC.

...if you're trying to prove legality, I wouldn't compare it to the "usual" illegal operation.
 
Unbeliever said:
No medical for the commercial pilot means someone else has to be PIC. He can't even be a required crewmember.

Not only does the CFI needs a 2nd class to be PIC, he has to be on the 135 roster of pilots.

--Carlos V.
Click to expand...

I thought corporate flights were part 91, not 135.
 
dtuuri said:
Why is it any different than letting a parent ride along in the back seat while junior is getting some hood time in the family Baron, or is that illegal too?

dtuuri
Click to expand...

The purpose of the flight is different.
 
dtuuri said:
The "usual" version is an FBO takes a request for transportation and sends the passenger off with a CFI giving "dual". In this case, the corporation owns the plane and has a trusted pilot already on the payroll. Does the CFI have an obligation to know the other pilot lost his/her medical? A right to know? So what if s/he does happen to know? Why is it any different than letting a parent ride along in the back seat while junior is getting some hood time in the family Baron, or is that illegal too?
Click to expand...

Given that the corporation would be dictating the destinations, cargo, passengers, and schedule, I don't think the FAA would buy the claim that the CFI didn't know what was going on. And the "trusted pilot" would be accepting money for acting as pilot-in-command without having the qualifications to do so. Remember, FAR 1.1 defines the PIC as a person who is "designated" as such, and I don't think the pilots could get away with making a PIC designation different from that in the corporation's records. And if the corporation was in on it, I don't think they could get away with designating as PIC a person who was only qualified to act as PIC on instructional flights if instruction were not the corporation's real purpose in ordering the flights to be made. I think the FAA would regard the whole thing as a sham. Not a great career move for anyone involved, IMO.

By the way, does the CFI hold a type rating for the aircraft to be used? If not, and if the aircraft is one that requires a type rating, the FAR 1.1 definition would prohibit the CFI from being designated as PIC for that reason as well.

From FAR 1.1:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

[emphasis added]​
 
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Palmpilot said:
I thought corporate flights were part 91, not 135.
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Doesn't really matter in this case, as either way at least a 2nd class medical is required. Whoever the PIC is, they're being paid to fly the airplane, not to instruct. Thus a 3rd class medical won't do.
 
dtuuri said:
The "usual" version is an FBO takes a request for transportation and sends the passenger off with a CFI giving "dual". In this case, the corporation owns the plane and has a trusted pilot already on the payroll. Does the CFI have an obligation to know the other pilot lost his/her medical? A right to know? So what if s/he does happen to know? Why is it any different than letting a parent ride along in the back seat while junior is getting some hood time in the family Baron, or is that illegal too?

dtuuri
Click to expand...
All I mean by "usual" is "all the ways that "clever" people try to get around regulations" that has resulted in this area being necessarily vague. (I'm pretty sure it's been at least 10 years since I first said that in a post — that's how "usual" I think it is)

Whether it's the CFI who gives dual to Key West for a week vacation, the kind in the back of the Bonanza, or your let's pretend the corporate pilot is receiving dual so we can get around his lack of qualifications scenario, if there is a problem that gets the FAA's attention, they are going to look a little deeper than what you or your company want to call it.

How many flights? How often? What was the real purpose of the flights? Where are they going? Was instruction really a substantial part of it? It might pass the duck test; it might not. Beats me.

That's the kind of stuff lawyers ask when advising clients of the level of legal risk associated with their conduct. Note how I phrased that - if you think even real legal advice is of the black and white variety, you'd be wrong.
 
Brad Z said:
Whoever the PIC is, they're being paid to fly the airplane, not to instruct. Thus a 3rd class medical won't do.
Click to expand...

So, a lesser airman (not a CFI) could be the designated safety pilot as PIC with a 3rd class medical and it's legal? Can a safety pilot be paid when acting as PIC?

dtuuri
 
Brad Z said:
Doesn't really matter in this case, as either way at least a 2nd class medical is required. Whoever the PIC is, they're being paid to fly the airplane, not to instruct. Thus a 3rd class medical won't do.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
dtuuri said:
So, a lesser airman (not a CFI) could be the designated safety pilot as PIC with a 3rd class medical and it's legal? Can a safety pilot be paid when acting as PIC?

dtuuri
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "a lesser airman (not a CFI)"? A flight instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate. Unless you meet some specific exceptions in 61.113, you need a commercial or ATP pilot certificate and a 1st or 2nd class medical certificate in order to act as a required crewmember for compensation.
 
Brad Z said:
What do you mean by "a lesser airman (not a CFI)"? A flight instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate. Unless you meet some specific exceptions in 61.113, you need a commercial or ATP pilot certificate and a 1st or 2nd class medical certificate in order to act as a required crewmember for compensation.
Click to expand...
I mean not a commercial pilot, just a private pilot acting as a safety pilot/PIC (while the other pilot flies and logs the time as PIC). I can envision a scenario where a company has a long-standing, highly qualified pilot who also has other duties with the company such as being, say, plant foreman. This pilot one day loses his medical and the company president wants to hire a "baby sitter" CFI holding a third class medical. It seems ridiculous that wouldn't be allowed while having an unpaid safety pilot, merely holding a private license, doing the same thing would be allowed. That is, if indeed it would be.

Until I lost my ability to hold a second class medical a few years ago I never had to think about what I'd be able to do with only a third class to earn income. Apparently, I can instruct. Can there be passengers? Under what circumstances? Under what regulations are passengers prohibited? If my sole business is instructing, can I carry passengers "incidental" to that business? I thought I'd ask the forum because I have reason to believe I may soon find myself with wings again, albeit 3rd class ones. :)

dtuuri
 
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