Is this correct?

[bbchien]

The $64K question is, Does Charlotte ever let anyone transit VFR?

 

[JustinPinnix]

I would believe that if I had to repeat anything to the controller. Extremely rare that something has to be repeated and really speeds things up. Get into real busy airspace and it really slows things down doing it in several messages. It is faster to do it all at once.

I fly in busy airspace all the time and it is very rare that I hear someone split it up like indicated above. When someone does you can almost hear the controller getting annoyed. They are there--they are listening--and they are ready to speak. They don't need it broken up. Make it quick.

My opinion is this. If you are making a standard request that the controller has dealt with a thousand times and you know they can do the same now. Get it over with. Say it. They'll respond. It'll be nice and quick like. If you are making some odd request or doing something that you know they'll have to think about-- state "request" ..but don't just say "request" give them a bit of a clue as to what you are requesting. There is no reason to be asking for a request to request something.

Don Brown / Atlanta Center:



I know we've got some controllers on here. Which would you guys prefer?

The example Brown gives is for an aircraft that has already made initial contact.

Since VFR flight following is about the lengthiest request you can make, it pays to make sure they are ready to handle you before committing 20 seconds of airtime to it. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "remain clear of class C and stand by" after making the initial callup.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Controlled field, follow the tower's instructions. If the IFR hasn't/won't cancel, can't/won't accept a visual approach, then it's better for the tower to clear the IFR traffic to land, clearing up the system for anyone else waiting in queue for the approach. Telling the VFR guy to extend, hold, whatever, is less burden on the system.

Not saying it can't happen, just that it's not an automatic privilege of flying IFR as Kenny implied.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If your request is limited to three to five words and easily understood then state it. Otherwise, it should be delayed until the controller asks for it. End with "With request" and wait.

Again, "With request" is redundant. When you call in with just your tail number, the request is implied.

Like Ant says though, VFR may keep the controller from having to scan the strips to make sure you're not IFR.

 

[Bill]

The $64K question is, Does Charlotte ever let anyone transit VFR?

Don't know, sometimes you don't even transit IFR. Last Wednesday, I filed:

CHA HRS UNARM UNARM.UNARM1 JQF

this is what I got:

CHA VXV BZM OWALT JQF

Nice re-route.

Coming home, I actually got my filed route IFR thru the CLT bravo:

JQF HUG6.DEBIE HRS CHA

 

[Bill]

"Uhh...I was on the landline...did someone call?" and "Aircraft making last transmission, say again your request, I missed it."

I just did an IFR trip out and back last weekend, and I got something like this three times when doing the simple checkin when being handed to the next sector. If they don't copy "Bugsmasher 12345 level 8000" when they're expecting you, how do you expect them to catch the entire spiel when they don't?

 

[jesse]

Since VFR flight following is about the lengthiest request you can make, it pays to make sure they are ready to handle you before committing 20 seconds of airtime to it. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "remain clear of class C and stand by" after making the initial callup.

No where near 20 seconds. I timed it and at my normal relaxed pace it took me about 8 seconds. I often talk faster in terminal areas but I didn't even bother trying.

The entire initial callup,

Controller responds asking for request,

You respond with request.

Took about 15 seconds of AIRTIME. Not to count the time it took before each thing to think about it. It takes longer.

Keep it short, Keep it simple, make it clear, and tell them what you need without wasting their time. I have never been denied flight following.

 

[jesse]

I just did an IFR trip out and back last weekend, and I got something like this three times when doing the simple checkin when being handed to the next sector. If they don't copy "Bugsmasher 12345 level 8000" when they're expecting you, how do you expect them to catch the entire spiel when they don't?

If they couldn't copy that. They wouldn't have been able to copy anything, yet alone, your request for permission to ask a request.

 

[Bill]

If they couldn't copy that. They wouldn't have been able to copy anything, yet alone, your request for permission to ask a request.

Whatever.

 

[jesse]

Whatever.

At first I thought about just responding "Whatever". But then I realized that isn't very pertinent to the thread so I decided to reply with some information which is meant to support my view.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that if a controller couldn't understand:

"Bugsmasher 12345 level 8000"

There is no way they would understand

"Bugsmasher 12345 request"

 

[Bill]

At first I thought about just responding "Whatever".

Whatever == done with thread

 

[KennyFlys]

Whatever == done with thread

Call the Statler Brothers! There could be something to this!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

At first I thought about just responding "Whatever". But then I realized that isn't very pertinent to the thread so I decided to reply with some information which is meant to support my view.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that if a controller couldn't understand:

"Bugsmasher 12345 level 8000"

There is no way they would understand

"Bugsmasher 12345 request"

EXACTLY!!! So how on earth do you expect them to understand "Center, bugsmasher 12345 is over Timbuktu at 4500 request flight following to Podunk Muni?"

Obviously, no matter what you say in a case like this, you're gonna get "Aircraft calling Center, say again" so the "Center, bugsmasher 12345" takes a heckuva lot less time on frequency.

In fact, once they say "say again" you know they're paying attention and THEN you can let loose with the entire call right away, and it didn't take any longer on frequency than it would have if they'd heard you and said "Bugsmasher 345, go ahead."

 

[Richard]

Proper phraseology is the key. If you say, "Bugsmasher 1234, level 8,000", the controller would rightly expect you are being handed off. So don't be flummoxed when he asks you who is handing you off (because he didn't get the coordinating call on the landline)

"Bugsmasher 1234, request" gives ATC the heads up that you are new on the freq, ie, there is no hand off.

Read your AIM

 

[jesse]

EXACTLY!!! So how on earth do you expect them to understand "Center, bugsmasher 12345 is over Timbuktu at 4500 request flight following to Podunk Muni?"

Obviously, no matter what you say in a case like this, you're gonna get "Aircraft calling Center, say again" so the "Center, bugsmasher 12345" takes a heckuva lot less time on frequency.

Keep your radio communications, clear, and to the point, and you won't have to repeat. I can't think of the last time I've had to repeat an initial call up. I would believe this repeat argument IF I HAD to repeat my initial call up. Since I do NOT have to repeat it--it obviously saves time.

 

[gismo]

Agreed, every time I've heard it uttered (even by the big guys), the controller essentially ignored it. I think they just tune it out.

I'm sure many can, but I know that to several, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. No wonder it's a high stress job!

 

[SupraPilot]

^^^^^ not tryin to sound like an ass but...have you ever flown in New York or Chicago airspace???
I hear people being asked to repeat 7 out of 10 calls to the controllers around here..

Ant

 

[GaryO]

Keep your radio communications, clear, and to the point, and you won't have to repeat. I can't think of the last time I've had to repeat an initial call up. I would believe this repeat argument IF I HAD to repeat my initial call up. Since I do NOT have to repeat it--it obviously saves time.

Just don't expect that to work when you try flying somewhere else.

 

[BobS]

Another part of the initial response raised a question with me. Tarheel's last reply was "Squawking 2801..." I never repeat the squawk code, and a controller never has asked. I was taught that they see the code on their screen, so the entry of the code acknowledges that you've received the code. The Controller's acknowledge that you have the right code when they come back with "N1234, radar contact, five west of___"

 

[jesse]

^^^^^ not tryin to sound like an ass but...have you ever flown in New York or Chicago airspace???
I hear people being asked to repeat 7 out of 10 calls to the controllers around here..

Ant

New York--No.

Chicago--Some.

Minneapolis--all the time.

I'm not saying that what I do would work everywhere. I'm saying that it works good around here and quite frankly it's what I see most people doing. This whole country is not the same and what works in one area may not be ideal in another area. Some people just don't seem to understand that.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Keep your radio communications, clear, and to the point, and you won't have to repeat. I can't think of the last time I've had to repeat an initial call up. I would believe this repeat argument IF I HAD to repeat my initial call up. Since I do NOT have to repeat it--it obviously saves time.

YOU don't have much to do with it... It's whether or not the controller is on the land line or listening to multiple different frequencies. For CD for instance, the same person is often working CD and ground. I suppose I could monitor ground before calling CD too. But, many Center controllers are working multiple frequencies and you don't know what the other ones may be.

 

[jesse]

YOU don't have much to do with it... It's whether or not the controller is on the land line or listening to multiple different frequencies. For CD for instance, the same person is often working CD and ground. I suppose I could monitor ground before calling CD too. But, many Center controllers are working multiple frequencies and you don't know what the other ones may be.

Once again. They don't tell me to repeat. So that means they heard it. If there were a pattern saying that I should repeat that means that there is a problem with it. There is no pattern. Everyone around here seems to do it like me. It works.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm not saying that what I do would work everywhere. I'm saying that it works good around here and quite frankly it's what I see most people doing. This whole country is not the same and what works in one area may not be ideal in another area. Some people just don't seem to understand that.

Which is why there are standard procedures that work everywhere.

4-2-3. Contact Procedures

a. Initial Contact.

1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:

(a) Name of the facility being called;

(b) Your full aircraft identification as filed in the flight plan or as discussed in paragraph 4-2-4, Aircraft Call Signs;

(c) When operating on an airport surface, state your position.

(d) The type of message to follow or your request if it is short

 

[jesse]

Which is why there are standard procedures that work everywhere.

Define short.

"Approach Diamond 283DC 10 south 2,500 request flight following"

seems short and to the point to me.

A lot less words then:

"Approach Diamond 283DC Request"

"Diamond 283DC, Minneapolis Approach, state your request"

"Approach Diamond 283DC 10 south 2,500 request flight following"

 

[tonycondon]

this reminds me of a joke an old 747 captain told at a safety meeting. He was flying in a stearman with his dad towards a Class D airport...

Son: "Dad don't you think you should call the tower?"
Dad: grumbles something
Son: "Dad, its not WWII anymore, you cant just fly over the field and wait for them to signal with flares or light gun"
Dad: "Is this one of those FAA towers or a Contract Tower?"
Son: "FAA Tower"
Dad: "Well then THEY should call US!"

 

[SupraPilot]

In some cases the controller might even know what to expect from you..especially VFR...honestly, how many request can you make while VFR...95% of the time a VFR flight calling a controller is asking for some sort of flight following or clearance through an airspace....this is why saying VFR in your initial call up is a good idea..it cuts out confusion and the controllers know what to expect from you...alot of times you can keep it short and give minimal information and the controllers will understand...if they need more info, they will just ask you...
One time i got...
"approach piper n1234 VFR request"
"piper N1234 approach, squawk 4321, just ident and state your intentions"

it kinda caught me off guard....i guess it wasnt that busy that the controller could easily just find me with an ident instead of me telling him where i was ect ect...and i assumed that he sorta knew what i was gonna request..like i said..i was VFR there arent many things u can really request from a controller that sint some sort of flight following or something...and im sure he asumed that if i wasnt gonna ask for FF that i would just say so

Controllers arent idiots..they can interpret also

Ant

 

[nosehair]

If there were a pattern saying that I should repeat that means that there is a problem with it. There is no pattern. Everyone around here seems to do it like me. It works.

This is a good thread that shows the true meaning of "standardization".
The AIM gives "standard" ways of doing things. This describes a "way" to do things which will be recognized all around the aviation community nation wide or even world wide.

But does anybody think that these proocedures can/will work everytime in every situation?

No. Flying isn't that "canned". There is no rule that will apply to everything. It is intended that we will use our brains and modify the "standard" to be safely efficient in 'non-standard', or 'local' conditions.

It was very eye-opening to me when I began to travel around the country and discover that each FSDO was like it's own little FAA. Each FSDO has some differences in regulatory interpretations and the differences are real - driven by local conditions. (as well as politics)

ATC communication is one of the most varied procedural things that we do. There is a very different communication style prefered at each communication site within the system. Find it. Follow it. Fall into it. Become aware of your changing surroundings and go with it. Don't expect the mountain to come to you.

 

[gismo]

YOU don't have much to do with it... It's whether or not the controller is on the land line or listening to multiple different frequencies. For CD for instance, the same person is often working CD and ground. I suppose I could monitor ground before calling CD too. But, many Center controllers are working multiple frequencies and you don't know what the other ones may be.

If it weren't for the fact that the FAA it usually a couple decades behind the rest of the world technically, they would give the controllers a way to repeat (at the press of a button) the last nth transmission on any channel the controller is assigned to. Then instead of wasting time asking a pilot to repeat what he just said, he could listen to the delayed version. Heck, they could even have a TIVO like audio device that they could "pause" when on landline or a different frequency and then "resume" when ready. Such a device could even transmit back a special tone that pilots would recognize as an indication that their last transmission was "queued" and will be acknowledged eventually. Then again, I'm surprised controllers don't use cups and string to talk to each other.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Another part of the initial response raised a question with me. Tarheel's last reply was "Squawking 2801..." I never repeat the squawk code, and a controller never has asked. I was taught that they see the code on their screen, so the entry of the code acknowledges that you've received the code. The Controller's acknowledge that you have the right code when they come back with "N1234, radar contact, five west of___"

Or they're really busy and don't see you come up on their screen and let you go on your merry way squawking the wrong code and not providing you any services. Or worse yet, you squawk the same code as someone else. I say, read it back.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Dwight's right about Class B airspace, but I only know of one non-towered airport within the surface area of a Class B airspace -- a small field just west of Dulles, and they can reach Dulles Tower from the ground, which they are required to do before takeoff.

How about private fields? I know of at least two that show up on the DFW terminal area chart. One I've seen; a grass strip on the corner of 1709 at the Southlake Town Center. The other is on the north side of Lake Grapevine.

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

Ok, this has been bothering me since I attended a seminar about ATC communication. I fly out of an airport that is inside class B airspace. Now I use to fly out of a non-towered field, and when we would go up, and get close to the Class B airspace this is what we would do.

1. Level off 500 feet below the airspace

2. Contact the Controller with "Charlotte Departure Cherokee 7291F"

3. "7291F, Charlotte Departure go ahead."

4. "Charlotte Departure, we are five miles east of 8A6, at 2,500 feet, requesting flight following, 7291F"

5. "91F, radar contact, squawk 2801, cleared through Bravo airspace."

6. "Squawking 2801, cleared through Bravo airspace."

I was just wondering if that's the correct way to do it, I ask because I know that controllers tend to hate the "with you" thing.

One more issue. It is my impression that you will not usually get the "radar contact" from ATC until AFTER you squawk and ident, since that is what confirms for them that they actually have YOU and not someone else.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

After a discussion with Jesse, I want to clarify some things.

Like Ron says, "It's all situations."

If I know the facility well, I may do something different - Whatever it is they expect from me, or whatever I can expect them to deal with most efficiently. For instance, the Clearance example I gave. I know they often have one controller working Clearance and Ground, so if it's busy I'll make the short call. Medium traffic, I might give them the full call for IFR because it's short. "Clearance, <callsign> IFR to <destination>." They already have the rest in the computer. The VFR call is longer, so I'll only do that as the full call when it's really late.

In the air, same thing. Just the other night on the way home from Watertown: "Madison Approach, Skylane 271G is off Watertown, landing with Juliet." Relatively short and sweet, and it was 20 minutes before the tower (and tracon) closed. Very quiet, very little traffic, good chance the call will make it on the first try.

On the other hand, on a sunny Sunday afternoon coming out of OSH where I have to call a Center controller who's probably working multiple sectors, multiple frequencies full of flivvers on their way home from their $100 burgers, I'm not gonna bust in with "Chicago Center, Skylane 271G is 10 southwest of Oshkosh climbing through 4,300 for 6,500 request flight following to Madison."

But... When in doubt, use the short call first. If they're busy, it'll save you from repeating a long call. If they're not busy, then the bit of extra frequency time you'd have saved by spewing it all out doesn't matter anyway.

 

[jdwatson]

I've had it go both ways with Raleigh approach. If they can find me definitively on the scope, I'll get a squawk code and radar contact at the same time.

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

How about private fields? I know of at least two that show up on the DFW terminal area chart. One I've seen; a grass strip on the corner of 1709 at the Southlake Town Center. The other is on the north side of Lake Grapevine.

Showing up on the Terminal Area Chart, and being in the Class B surface area, are two different things. Don't know the airports you mentioned, but are they in the inner circle that goes to the surface? If not, they have G and perhaps some E airspace over them that you can use to get in and out without contacting approach/departure for the Class B. If they are in the inner circle, you must call for a clearance to fly in Class B. You could, of course, truck the plane in or out without a clearance . But if you fly, you need a clearance in Class B.

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

Which Kent Shook is right? Your reference to the Contact Procedures seemed to me to settle the questions about what "ought" to be done. Any ATC who does not like it is just being rude or ****y. Now, in some situations you can take a shortcut and not get in trouble - kind of like using a straight in approach instead of a 45 pattern entry if the pattern is clear. That seemed to be what Jesse was suggesting is "normal" in his area. Nothing really wrong with that, as in no one will write you up for doing it. Nothing wrong with doing it like the Contract Procedure specifies either. I am not sure why this issue is still so hotly debated.

 

[TMetzinger]

If it weren't for the fact that the FAA it usually a couple decades behind the rest of the world technically, they would give the controllers a way to repeat (at the press of a button) the last nth transmission on any channel the controller is assigned to. Then instead of wasting time asking a pilot to repeat what he just said, he could listen to the delayed version. Heck, they could even have a TIVO like audio device that they could "pause" when on landline or a different frequency and then "resume" when ready. Such a device could even transmit back a special tone that pilots would recognize as an indication that their last transmission was "queued" and will be acknowledged eventually. Then again, I'm surprised controllers don't use cups and string to talk to each other.

If we pilots weren't such cheap bastids we'd pony up for digital packet comms, where we'd only hear broadcasts and transmissions for us, and they'd only hear broadcasts and transmissions for them, and queueing would ensure that they'd be able to hear every transmission the first time.

The bad part of this (and the good part of our current setup) is that we'd lose some situational awareness by not hearing everything and building up a big picture. ADS-B and realtime traffic in the cockpit would certainly go a long way towards making up for it, however.

Just remember, it ain't only the FAA behind the times. It's us, through our EAA and AOPA and NBAA lobbies, that push back against advancements that would require us to spend money. Look at ELTs, for example. Requiring the more expensive 406 MHz ELTs would increase safety, reduce SAR costs, but we'd all have to spend as much as $1500 per airplane to upgrade. We said "no" for years, and what happened? The SAR folks took their savings by not supporting the old stuff on SARSAT anymore, and left us literally lost in the wilderness. Heck, we even said "no" to making them required only on new airplanes, even though the cost of the better ELT is practically noise in that case

It's tough balancing the needs of the many versus the freedom of the individual, and sometimes we're our own enemy.

 

[ScottM]

i make a 'cold' call if the controller sounds busy. but I fly in the midwest. as long as you stay away from chicago it doesnt get that busy. so i give em everything, like jesse.

Ditto and around Chicago give them at least an idea what you want. FF give them the whole speal, IFR I start with Chi-departure 8116b IFR, request clearance from 10C and then they call me back right away with a squawk and an instruction while they catch up and then get my clearance. C90 is very consistent with routes so I know to be on a heading of 180 no matter where I will eventually head to so that helps too.

 

[gprellwitz]

Another part of the initial response raised a question with me. Tarheel's last reply was "Squawking 2801..." I never repeat the squawk code, and a controller never has asked. I was taught that they see the code on their screen, so the entry of the code acknowledges that you've received the code. The Controller's acknowledge that you have the right code when they come back with "N1234, radar contact, five west of___"

Bob, that question was rased to the NATCA controllers at the ASF seminar I attended a few weeks ago. Their unanimous response was that they LIKE getting the squawk readback. That way they don't have to watch and wait for the next screen update to know that the code was received properly. Allows them to concentrate on other things.

 

[gprellwitz]

Ditto and around Chicago give them at least an idea what you want. FF give them the whole speal, IFR I start with Chi-departure 8116b IFR, request clearance from 10C and then they call me back right away with a squawk and an instruction while they catch up and then get my clearance. C90 is very consistent with routes so I know to be on a heading of 180 no matter where I will eventually head to so that helps too.

Scott, why give the whole FF to C90? They'll deny it anyway, so why waste the bandwidth?

 

[gprellwitz]

If it weren't for the fact that the FAA it usually a couple decades behind the rest of the world technically, they would give the controllers a way to repeat (at the press of a button) the last nth transmission on any channel the controller is assigned to. Then instead of wasting time asking a pilot to repeat what he just said, he could listen to the delayed version. Heck, they could even have a TIVO like audio device that they could "pause" when on landline or a different frequency and then "resume" when ready. Such a device could even transmit back a special tone that pilots would recognize as an indication that their last transmission was "queued" and will be acknowledged eventually. Then again, I'm surprised controllers don't use cups and string to talk to each other.

Hmmmm..... Sounds like you're describing the audio panel on the G1000! (except for the "pause". What would happen if the controller forgets to unpause it! )