Is there anything to worry about?

[Tom-D]

Dear friends across the U.S.,

The Grand Canyon, one of America's greatest treasures, is threatened by a huge wave of uranium mining -- and the deadline for public comment is fast approaching.

For two years, a hard-won moratorium on mining has protected the Canyon, but the ban is now set to expire. If the federal government doesn't renew it, a "Uranium Rush" of mining would permanently scar the face of this unique and priceless land, devastate local communities, and endanger water supplies for millions who live nearby.

Mining lobbyists are pushing the Bureau of Land Management to let the digging begin, but a proposed 20-year ban is also under review. A public outcry helped win the last ban, and a wave of citizen outcry last week has extended the deadline for public comment through May 4 -- so if enough of us raise the alarm now, we could ensure the Canyon stays mine-free for decades. Let’s save the Grand Canyon! Send a comment now, and tell everyone to do the same:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_the_grand_canyon/97.php

During the Bush years, uranium prices soared -- and the mining industry rushed to stake mining claims on the federal land where the Grand Canyon sits. Over 1,100 mining claims have already been filed within 5 miles of the Grand Canyon. To mine uranium, companies rip up huge tracts of land to extract radioactive material -- before processing it for use in weapons and nuclear power plants.

The sheer destruction of the mines led the Havasupai Indians, who live in the canyon itself, and all tribal governments in northern Arizona to ban uranium mining on all their lands. Such opposition, paired with widespread public pressure, helped persuade the Obama administration to put in place the temporary ban shortly after it took office.

But now the mining moratorium his running out -- uranium extraction is more lucrative than ever, and the pressure coming from the powerful mining lobby is intense. Only a massive wave of national pressure can keep the Grand Canyon off-limits to destructive uranium mining. Let's make the public's voice impossible to ignore -- send a message here:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_the_grand_canyon/97.php

America's national park system is one of our greatest progressive legacies. But it's always been a battle to protect it -- with lobbyists for private profiteering building strength. This week, one of the most beloved icons of our natural heritage is on the line. Let's unite around a vision of our nation that preserves its beauty for our children, their children, and all the generations to come.

With hope,

Ben, Brianna, Iain, Mia, Heather, Ricken, and the whole Avaaz.org team

More information

The New York Times: The Grand Canyon Uranium Rush
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/opinion/08tue4.html

Treehugger: Uranium “Yellow Monster” Threatens Grand Canyon
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/04/uranium-yellow-monster-threatens-grand-canyon.php

Uranium Mining 101
http://earthworksaction.org/publications.cfm?pubID=501

Report:Grand Canyon Threatened by Approval of Uranium Mining Activities
http://www.ewg.org/reports/grandcanyon

Bureau of Land Management extends public comment period
http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/info/newsroom/2011/march/0.html

 

[Richard]

Alarmist.


Some of it's true, some is not. Under it all is the struggle of one group to preserve their financial hegemony against other groups who want to exploit their opportunities which are in compliance with all laws, rules, and regulations. One facet of the battle is each side is composed of several stake holders and that represents a 'fractionalization' which must be resolved within each group. While "mining lobbyists" are involved, they are but one weapon in the arsenal but hey, you know "lobbyist" has such a negative connotation. And that begs the question: do the tribes use lobbyists? You better believe it buddy and they have a lot of money and power.

I would vote for mining just because the Havusupai are mentioned. That whole visual of the Native American crying over the pillage of the land is pure BS.

 

[weilke]

I want the Grand Canyon preserved as much as the next guy, but what's up with the socialist language in that call to action ?

While the way mining rights are handled is a somewhat goofy relic from the days of the western expansion, it is my understanding that the proposed mines are not within the park boundaries but rather some of the federal lands surrounding the park. The mission of national forests and grasslands is 'a land of many uses', one of them happens to be mining.

 

[ejensen]

It's BLM managed land (Dept of Interior) not Forest Service (Ag). Not that it would matter though. The controversial copper mine south of Tucson is on FS. Both can only regulate slightly the extraction process. The law has not change substantially since 1872. Mining especially strip mining or open pit does stir up strong controversy. Industry rep is not the best.

 

[alaskaflyer]

I want the Grand Canyon preserved as much as the next guy, but what's up with the socialist language in that call to action ?

While the way mining rights are handled is a somewhat goofy relic from the days of the western expansion, it is my understanding that the proposed mines are not within the park boundaries but rather some of the federal lands surrounding the park. The mission of national forests and grasslands is 'a land of many uses', one of them happens to be mining.

What is "socialist language"? And how does that perceived problem relate to a proposed use of public lands managed on behalf of every citizen?

 

[pilot117]

Hopefully our local mining expert, Clark, stops by to shed any insight he might have on the subject.

 

[weilke]

What is "socialist language"? And how does that perceived problem relate to a proposed use of public lands managed on behalf of every citizen?

America's national park system is one of our greatest progressive legacies. But it's always been a battle to protect it -- with lobbyists for private profiteering building strength.

They seem to be more upset about the fact that someone may be making money than the potential damage to the rocks around the canyon. Acquifers can be managed, runoff can be managed, reconstruction of the surface can be mandated.

The 'Breccia Pipes' that contain the uranium ore are narrow deep shafts:

I dont know what the footprint of a mine for one of these pipes is, it would seem to me that it doesn't involve large open pits as we know them e.g. from the copper mines in south america.

Is something like this in the lands adjacent to the GC pretty ?

Probably not.

Is is better than this ?

Or this ?

As long as we use electricity, we'll have to dig holes somewhere. We can dig big holes, or little holes. I'm more for the little holes.

(and no, those are of course not my pictures, just random shots hotlinked of sites dealing with uranium or coal mining)

 

[Clark1961]

Hopefully our local mining expert, Clark, stops by to shed any insight he might have on the subject.

While I appreciate the vote of confidence, oil and natural gas extraction is my profession so this is out of my realm.

The BLM structure is so fractured that I won't even hazard a guess as to what they might do. Each local BLM office acts independently and appeal is through the state BLM office. Pressure can be brought to bare at the national level and the large mining concerns can lobby at that level as well as the environmental advocacy groups. It is certainly a complicated system to deal with. I frequently learn about unwritten "rules" and assumptions that make little sense but I have to live with them because of the power that the local BLM offices exercise. Basically, I can't risk ****ing off the local BLMers by appealing to the state because the local BLMers can shut me down at any time on little more than a whim.

 

[Ted]

Everyone wants electricity, natural gas, and oil. Everyone wants to reduce dependence on foreign supplies of these objects. Yet, nobody wants to pull it out of our back yard.

Pick one, people. You can't have both.

 

[Steve Foley]

Everyone wants electricity, natural gas, and oil. Everyone wants to reduce dependence on foreign supplies of these objects. Yet, nobody wants to pull it out of our back yard.
.

You can't always get what you want.

Sit beside a road sometime and count 100 cars going by. Count how many of those cars have a single occupant. When I've done this, the single occupant cars number over 90.

Those people could have used 25 cars to accomplish the same thing, yet everybody wants to drive alone for the convenience.

I want to reduce dependence on all oil supplies, not just foreign supplies.

 

[weilke]

Oh, and as long as I am driving a car and fly a plane, I will be ok with the occasional coastal oil-spill or pipeline explosion. Sure, it shouldn't become a habit, but unless I want to drive around in a cow-fart-methane fired golf-cart, I'll have to live with the knowledge of some oiled birds.

 

[Ted]

You can't always get what you want.

Sit beside a road sometime and count 100 cars going by. Count how many of those cars have a single occupant. When I've done this, the single occupant cars number over 90.

Those people could have used 25 cars to accomplish the same thing, yet everybody wants to drive alone for the convenience.

I want to reduce dependence on all oil supplies, not just foreign supplies.

And if you'd paid attention to the last line, that was exactly my point.

Except I'd rather see those 100 cars with 1 person turn into 100 motorcycles rather than 25 cars. You can't accomplish the same thing with 25 cars, because those 100 people are all going 100 different places.

 

[bigred177]

You can't always get what you want.

Sit beside a road sometime and count 100 cars going by. Count how many of those cars have a single occupant. When I've done this, the single occupant cars number over 90.

Those people could have used 25 cars to accomplish the same thing, yet everybody wants to drive alone for the convenience.

I want to reduce dependence on all oil supplies, not just foreign supplies.

And they all take off from the light like they're drag racing you. Then they wonder why the get bad gas mileage.

 

[Tom-D]

Except I'd rather see those 100 cars with 1 person turn into 100 motorcycles rather than 25 cars. You can't accomplish the same thing with 25 cars, because those 100 people are all going 100 different places.

$15-$20.00 gas will get you there. just like it did in the EU.

 

[steingar]

And they all take off from the light like they're drag racing you. Then they wonder why the get bad gas mileage.

My sportbike gets better mileage than any car you've ever owned, and it's insanely fast. Ted's sportbike probably does as well. And the sportbike has far worse mileage than any of my other bikes, save the Goldwing, which might as well be a car.

You're thinking of Harleys, which don't get bad mileage because they drag race, but get bad mileage because they're built poorly with WWII technology.

 

[Richard]

You can't always get what you want.

Sit beside a road sometime and count 100 cars going by. Count how many of those cars have a single occupant. When I've done this, the single occupant cars number over 90.

Those people could have used 25 cars to accomplish the same thing, yet everybody wants to drive alone for the convenience.

I want to reduce dependence on all oil supplies, not just foreign supplies.

Do you advocate regulations with the intent to encourage "High Occupancy Vehicles"? There already exist HOV traffic lanes specifically reserved for vehicles with 2 or more occupants. While this appears to be a good idea, you can also look at it as a restriction on certain activities, ie, single occupant.

As the world tightens it's belt as it looks for ways to conserve petro consumption, can we expect increased advocacy of regulations to restrict certain types of activities...like pleasure drives...or pleasure flights. How can one justify their pursuit of the $100 hamburger? Absent the ability to justify those activities, it would be all too easy for others to advocate restrictions in the name of conservartion.

 

[Richard]

...Harleys, which don't get bad mileage because they drag race, but get bad mileage because they're built poorly with WWII technology.

And when you pull up next to one, you know it. I doubt anyone says, Kewl! Listen to the rumble of that rice burner.

Thank God for WWII technology.

 

[Steve Foley]

And if you'd paid attention to the last line, that was exactly my point.

I read the last line.

Pick one, people. You can't have both.

I don't want both or even one. I want neither.

Except I'd rather see those 100 cars with 1 person turn into 100 motorcycles rather than 25 cars. You can't accomplish the same thing with 25 cars, because those 100 people are all going 100 different places.

My motorcycle is only useful at most six months per year. I take it off the road from October 15 through April 15.

In Central Massachusetts, public transportation is essentially non-existent. I could walk the ten miles to work faster than I could take public transportation. Something drastic needs to happen to get people out of their existing fuel wasting habits. It may be $20/gallon gasoline that finally does it.

I don't oppose local oil extraction. I just wonder if we're just postponing the inevitable.

 

[Everskyward]

And when you pull up next to one, you know it. I doubt anyone says, Kewl! Listen to the rumble of that rice burner.

Thank God for WWII technology.

I'm sure that people in general view motorcycle noise the same way they view airplane noise. To some it is the sound of freedom, or whatever. To others it's just annoying.

 

[Bob Noel]

In Central Massachusetts, public transportation is essentially non-existent. I could walk the ten miles to work faster than I could take public transportation. Something drastic needs to happen to get people out of their existing fuel wasting habits. It may be $20/gallon gasoline that finally does it.

I don't oppose local oil extraction. I just wonder if we're just postponing the inevitable.

My commute to work is about 6 miles and I drive my car less than 7000 miles per year. My gas usage is so low that even $20/gal wouldn't change anything about how I drive.

 

[Henning]

$15-$20.00 gas will get you there. just like it did in the EU.

EU mostly just uses smaller more efficient cars with small TDI engines and manual transmissions anymore. Actually the use of motorcycles and scooters has declined greatly in the last 30 years since you can put a hot pipe on your moped anymore.

Indonesia is a great example of a scooter society....

 

[Palmpilot]

America's national park system is one of our greatest progressive legacies. But it's always been a battle to protect it -- with lobbyists for private profiteering building strength.

They seem to be more upset about the fact that someone may be making money than the potential damage to the rocks around the canyon. Acquifers can be managed, runoff can be managed, reconstruction of the surface can be mandated.

The 'Breccia Pipes' that contain the uranium ore are narrow deep shafts:...

I appreciate the info about what's actually involved in such mines, and I think you have a point about folks railing against private profits, but why on earth do you equate "progressive legacy" with socialism? Sounds like you're just parroting right-wing attempts to smear their political opposition when you write stuff like that.

 

[Pi1otguy]

I think the big concern is a repeat of what happened to the Navajos in the 70's. Apparently, some buildings were even constructed with the radioactive trailings.
http://serc.carleton.edu/research_education/nativelands/navajo/humanhealth.html

 

[Henning]

America's national park system is one of our greatest progressive legacies. But it's always been a battle to protect it -- with lobbyists for private profiteering building strength.

They seem to be more upset about the fact that someone may be making money than the potential damage to the rocks around the canyon. Acquifers can be managed, runoff can be managed, reconstruction of the surface can be mandated.

I was talking to Jack Nicklaus in Port Lucaya once and I jokingly said I wished I could afford to play one of his courses. He told me I could play one for $18 in Anaconda Montana. Seems when they did the Superfund cleanup there they decided to make a municipal golf course of it.

 

[Ted]

$15-$20.00 gas will get you there. just like it did in the EU.

I've never seen anyone carpool over there. However, they do drive significantly more fuel-efficient cars typically, and rely on public transportation much more. Most of their cars have one person in them, too.

My sportbike gets better mileage than any car you've ever owned, and it's insanely fast. Ted's sportbike probably does as well. And the sportbike has far worse mileage than any of my other bikes, save the Goldwing, which might as well be a car.

You're thinking of Harleys, which don't get bad mileage because they drag race, but get bad mileage because they're built poorly with WWII technology.

Actually, Harleys get better gas mileage than their Japanese equivalents for the most part. My friend has a Harley Tour Glide that will get 50 mpg highway all day long, while my VTX 1800 was lucky to get 36, same for my friend's GL1800. My RC51 gets about 40ish. Laurie's Sporster 1200 also gets about 50 (~45 if I'm riding it).

With a motorcycle, though, you can beat on it and still get good mileage (and I do). If I beat on my VR4, I'll get ~18, if I beat on my Excursion I'll get 10.

 

[weilke]

I appreciate the info about what's actually involved in such mines, and I think you have a point about folks railing against private profits, but why on earth do you equate "progressive legacy" with socialism? Sounds like you're just parroting right-wing attempts to smear their political opposition when you write stuff like that.

The parks never struck me as a partisan issue, why the petition writers try to appropriate them in that way I don't know.

And what exactly does 'progressive' stand for if not the ideals of the left ?

Call it 'liberal', 'left', 'socialist' or if you wish 'progressive' it is all the same 'your stuff is our stuff' concept.

 

[Henning]

I've never seen anyone carpool over there. However, they do drive significantly more fuel-efficient cars typically, and rely on public transportation much more. Most of their cars have one person in them, too.

Me neither, nor do I recall HOV lanes to encourage it. They do have a bunch of small cars that just aren't marketed here, and some of the small ones that are marketed here that have even smaller gas and TDI engines.

 

[bigred177]

My sportbike gets better mileage than any car you've ever owned, and it's insanely fast. Ted's sportbike probably does as well. And the sportbike has far worse mileage than any of my other bikes, save the Goldwing, which might as well be a car.

You're thinking of Harleys, which don't get bad mileage because they drag race, but get bad mileage because they're built poorly with WWII technology.

I was talking about the single person sitting in their 8 passenger car. There are top fuel guys that don't come off the line as hard. But yes, my bike also gets much better mileage than any of my cars. Since the most fuel efficient car I've ever owned only gets 20 MPG on the highway with a tailwind, I really hope your bike does better .

 

[bigred177]

I've never seen anyone carpool over there. However, they do drive significantly more fuel-efficient cars typically, and rely on public transportation much more. Most of their cars have one person in them, too.



Actually, Harleys get better gas mileage than their Japanese equivalents for the most part. My friend has a Harley Tour Glide that will get 50 mpg highway all day long, while my VTX 1800 was lucky to get 36, same for my friend's GL1800. My RC51 gets about 40ish. Laurie's Sporster 1200 also gets about 50 (~45 if I'm riding it).

With a motorcycle, though, you can beat on it and still get good mileage (and I do). If I beat on my VR4, I'll get ~18, if I beat on my Excursion I'll get 10.

Ha, the Excursions are like the old Chevy 454 trucks used to be. If you're nice to them you get 10. If you beat on them you get 10. If you're pulling you get 10. One the highway you get 10. In the city you get 10. Most amazing thing I've ever seen.

 

[Henning]

Ha, the Excursions are like the old Chevy 454 trucks used to be. If you're nice to them you get 10. If you beat on them you get 10. If you're pulling you get 10. One the highway you get 10. In the city you get 10. Most amazing thing I've ever seen.

That's what 4:56 gears gets you.... BTW, nothing launches harder than a top fueller.

 

[flyersfan31]

The Euros drive small cars for many reasons. One, they got acclimated to them post-war, when resources were tight. Two, things are more centralized, in general. Folks live in town, and work the fields out of town. Everyone lives together, in relatively close quarters. Three, most cities and villes are older than any settlement in the US, and hence are filled with narrow passageways and back alleys. An H2 just ain't gonna cut it driving around, say, Bologna.

The US got used to big cars because, post-war, we had riches and resources coming out of our ears. We had big distances to travel. Notwithstanding the cities, where public transport was still king, our settlement model was one of dispersal rather than concentration.

As it turns out, petroleum isn't limitless, so the Euros kinda lucked into the right market model. The reason there are so many diesels in Europe has more to do with taxation, however. Diesel fuel is taxed lower than gasoline, in order to encourage fuel efficiency. That's not the case here. It's more of a break-even between mileage and fuel costs for US diesels. Cut diesel taxes and I bet you'd see a lot more on the road here, if the environmentalists wouldn't squawk so much about PM10 and PM05.

 

[Ted]

Me neither, nor do I recall HOV lanes to encourage it. They do have a bunch of small cars that just aren't marketed here, and some of the small ones that are marketed here that have even smaller gas and TDI engines.

Even the big ones are marketed with more efficient engines frequently. The BMW 720D is over there - a 7 series BMW that has a small, 4-cylinder diesel. Here, nobody would dare think of purchasing a 7-series with anything less than a big V8 (at least since they killed off the 735i 20 years ago).

Ha, the Excursions are like the old Chevy 454 trucks used to be. If you're nice to them you get 10. If you beat on them you get 10. If you're pulling you get 10. One the highway you get 10. In the city you get 10. Most amazing thing I've ever seen.

The 454s were a bit more consistent than the Excursion. I'll get 12 average on my commuting/local cycle, and 13-15 on the highway (so long as I'm going 70 and not 85). Towing a car it'll get about 11 highway, and towing a 25' big trailer it'll get about 8.5.

It helps me justify flying a twin.

 

[Ted]

That's what 4:56 gears gets you.... BTW, nothing launches harder than a top fueller.

The Excursions came with 3.73s or 4.10s, hence the slightly better behavior. Those old 454 Chevys with a TH400 pretty much ran the same RPMs all the time.

The Euros drive small cars for many reasons. One, they got acclimated to them post-war, when resources were tight. Two, things are more centralized, in general. Folks live in town, and work the fields out of town. Everyone lives together, in relatively close quarters. Three, most cities and villes are older than any settlement in the US, and hence are filled with narrow passageways and back alleys. An H2 just ain't gonna cut it driving around, say, Bologna.

The US got used to big cars because, post-war, we had riches and resources coming out of our ears. We had big distances to travel. Notwithstanding the cities, where public transport was still king, our settlement model was one of dispersal rather than concentration.

As it turns out, petroleum isn't limitless, so the Euros kinda lucked into the right market model. The reason there are so many diesels in Europe has more to do with taxation, however. Diesel fuel is taxed lower than gasoline, in order to encourage fuel efficiency. That's not the case here. It's more of a break-even between mileage and fuel costs for US diesels. Cut diesel taxes and I bet you'd see a lot more on the road here, if the environmentalists wouldn't squawk so much about PM10 and PM05.

I don't know if calling it the "right" model is really correct. It's a different model. Converting chemical or electrical energy into mechanical is an engineering problem. There is no shortage of energy out there, it's just an issue of harnessing it. Hence why the alternate fuel question is an important one.

 

[weilke]

Even the big ones are marketed with more efficient engines frequently. The BMW 720D is over there - a 7 series BMW that has a small, 4-cylinder diesel. Here, nobody would dare think of purchasing a 7-series with anything less than a big V8 (at least since they killed off the 735i 20 years ago).

A number of countries in europe tax cars based on engine displacement.

In italy, there used to be a luxury tax on engines above 2.0l. The tax itself wasn't so bad, but paying the tax invited a visit from tax auditors whichn anyone who can afford a decent car in italy is trying to avoid :wink2: . As a result, BMW would offer cars that have a 2.5l everywhere else with a 2.0 turbocharged 4-valve strictly for the italian market ('is' models).

It's not any kind of modesty, intellect or moral superiority that causes the small cars. It is taxation and economic factors.

 

[Tom-D]

Indonesia is a great example of a scooter society....

That's a weather issue, (no winter)

 

[bigred177]

It helps me justify flying a twin.

Haha, my plane gets better gas mileage than my car so I should just fly everywhere! I'm going to buy a Mooney and an Excursion and use that one daily.

 

[Henning]

That's a weather issue, (no winter)

Maybe, but it rains everyday, often torrential rain. It's actually a traffic issue, especially in Jakarta. If you get in a car it will take 4 hrs to go 10km. On a scooter it'll take half an hour.

 

[Bravo3]

I appreciate the info about what's actually involved in such mines, and I think you have a point about folks railing against private profits, but why on earth do you equate "progressive legacy" with socialism? Sounds like you're just parroting right-wing attempts to smear their political opposition when you write stuff like that.

Funny how folks see a "socialist" behind every bush yet ignore the fascism i.e. "corporatism"--as Mussolini called it between--that surrounds us. You know, that regular circle-jerk between the government, media, public relations, and big business.

As a resident of the Grand Canyon corridor I see more and more of the corporate camel sticking his head into the tent and we can't count on any alphabet soup agency to protect this area and the people living in it.

My wife spent years covering case after case of Navajo kids suffering from birth defects attributable to irresponsible uranium mining operations. But, they're expendable, I guess. I'm sure the mining companies have learned from their mistakes and will do it all safely and cleanly this time.

 

[jesse]

I road cross country with a friend who had a 2006 Harley something or another. I had a 2001 Suzuki Bandit 1200S. He always bought more gas than I did at each stop. But it wasn't much more. Maybe 10-15%.

 

[Palmpilot]

The parks never struck me as a partisan issue, why the petition writers try to appropriate them in that way I don't know.

And what exactly does 'progressive' stand for if not the ideals of the left ?

Call it 'liberal', 'left', 'socialist' or if you wish 'progressive' it is all the same 'your stuff is our stuff' concept.

There's a lot more to socialism than that. Trying to equate the mainstream of the left with socialism is a smear tactic.