Is my CFII having me fly the ILS too fast?

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

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DesertNomad
I have a Dakota that has a top cruise of about 143kts. I am based at KRNO with 16R being 11,000' long. My CFII wants me to fly the ILS at about 130kts down to 200' then pull the throttle to idle, level off to slow to flap speed (100kts), drop in two notches of flaps and land. This has me landing way down the runway... about 2800' from the threshhold.

Today, the first turn I could make was more than 5000' down the runway, given the high speed over the fence, still under the hood.

It also means that any slight error in holding the localizer, quickly runs off to one side as the speed is so high. I am much more comfortable at about 105kts, slowing to 95 at about 1.5 miles out with one notch of flaps.

Thoughts?
 
Not a bad thing to try, but it wouldn't be how I'd fly an approach in real life. I'd go fully configured by FAF and come down stabilized. Maybe 90 or 100 kts?

Is this what he is teaching as standard??


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Yeah, thats fast. FAA wants at least 80 knots indicated or so. A little fast for a 172 maybe. This is so other planes dont get delayed by you. But he's your instructor. Id talk to him about it. What is the Dakota's recommended ILS speed? I'd guess 85 indicated knots or so. Usually its about 10 knots faster than Vso * 1.3 so maybe 90 indicated. Landing that way and using up all that runway will work, but what if you are long because of tailwind too? You might not be able to stop... Just suggest to CFI to tell approach your new safe ILS speed limit according to your uh hum, spec ops.... is 90 knots indicated now. They might have to give the guy behind you another 30 seconds seperation.

Actually you should figure out how many seconds difference flyiing at 90 vs the 130kts for when you talk to approach about it.

Dont want to get too fancy out there. Stay in the envelope you are comfortable with. OTOH he is YOUR instructor and may have his reasons.

I can see doing it a bit faster than Vy, but not that much faster.
 
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He says since there is 11,000' there is plenty of time to slow down and it is easier to fly it fast than slow. Maybe for him :D

In real life, Id want to be no faster than 110kts at the IAF and to 90 at the FAF. It is just a real shock to look up at 200' and be zooming along at 130kts. On shorter runways he is ok with 100 but does not want me dropping any flaps until decision height.

He has about 16,000 hours and has flown everything up to regional jets. I think he belives my Dakota is a regional jet too.
 
Making massive configuration changes at 200' is extremely foolhardy, and training yourself to land half a mile down the runway will eventually end with a trip off the end of a shorter runway someday. If he's stuck in his regional jet mindset, ask how his company would feel about not being configured and stable by 1000'. There's a reason for doing things by the book.
 
Sounds unnecessary unless you're being tailed by faster traffic. I can do 170 in a Cirrus to the marker and still be configured and stabilized by 1000ft but I don't want to do that every time.
 
I'll shoot em at full cruise in my plane, she slows down very easy, but even then if it's to mins I'll at least keep her around VFE.

That said, this isn't exactly the best way to teach a new guy how to shoot a ILS, kinda something you do after you have your head around instrument flying and have a little more experience.
 
That's fast for an ILS approach, unless you're in a 737. I understand that (maybe) he's prepping you for those days when you're flying in a busy airport with ATC bellowing at you to keep your speed up. But, when I'm 2 miles from the FAF...I'm slowing down to a speed I feel comfortable with in the airplane I'm flying. Period.
 
Yeah, 11000 ft? Have you tried flying at that speed at a 5000 ft field? While it's a good skill to have if you fly a lot ar air carrier airports, IMO it's doing you a disservice as a student. Slowing down gives you time to think and stay ahead of the airplane.
 
This is at Reno so there are often 737s ahead or behind, but I was the only one up there today. At a 5000' field, he lets me approach slower but we don't have any local fields that short with ILS's that have low minimums. I just think it is way too fast and today I was definitely behind the airplane for the last few hundred feet under the hood and after breaking out too since I was just massively concerned with getting slowed down and reconfigured. I missed the first turn off that the tower asked for as I was well flustered by then.
 
Like some others, I think it's too fast for a Dakota if it's being taught as standard. I fly slower than that in much faster singles. But it should be taught.

Here's the thing. It is very common when flying into a busy airport that handles jet traffic to be asked by ATC to keep your speed up on an ILS to help mix with the other traffic. So it's a valuable skill to have unless you want to be vectored around until they find a place to fit you in. But, aside from the fact that not all ILS runways are 11,000' long, unless you are based at an airport with substantial airline traffic, "keep your speed up" is a rarity, and I'm not sure why one would want, as a matter of course, to increase their approach minimums by flying two categories faster than they need to.

(To join the "I've done it" examples, I once did an ILS at 120 KTS in a 172, so my approach speed was faster than my cruise speed; By the same token, I've also been asked to slow down an ILS in a 172 :D)
 
DesertNomad said:
This is at Reno so there are often 737s ahead or behind, but I was the only one up there today. At a 5000' field, he lets me approach slower but we don't have any local fields that short with ILS's that have low minimums. I just think it is way too fast and today I was definitely behind the airplane for the last few hundred feet under the hood and after breaking out too since I was just massively concerned with getting slowed down and reconfigured. I missed the first turn off that the tower asked for as I was well flustered by then.
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Yeah, at this stage you shouldn't give any thought to what easier for the guy behind you, just focus on flying your own plane.
 
I try to keep my speed to 90-100kts in my 182 down the ILS.

I'm pretty confident that I could do it at 120-130kts no problem and would do it if asked by ATC if the weather was MVFR or better. But honestly if I'm shooting an approach to anywhere near minimums I am taking my time and not speeding it up. I'll let ATC figure out how to work me in, even if I gotta fly a hold for a while until they can fit me.

As for learning- it is MUCH easier to shoot an ILS slower. Just makes since- more time to make corrections when needed. Everything happens that much slower, which is especially helpful in the learning stages.

To each their own tho...I am not a CFI and don't fly into really big airports (Class Bravo) often so I haven't had to worry about a 737 breathing down my neck that much. Your CFI obviously feels that based on the environment you are flying in it is best. If you are having trouble maybe ask him to fly it slower and work up to the faster ones?
 
I think it's ridiculous your CFI is teaching to fly that fast on an ILS approach at the beginning of your ILS training. On an ILS I teach fully configured for landing at the FAF at the latest. That means full flaps, gear down etc. Between FAF and runway you should be concentrating on your approach and being able to transition to a landing when you break out. I would guess in a Dakota you'd be maybe 90 KIAS.
 
I would simply refuse. Tell him you're not comfortable going that fast and you're not comfortable reconfiguring the airplane at the last minute. Tell him that after you get the ILS approaches nailed in more comfortable circumstances, then you'll try some his way. You are the customer.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I assume you're planning on taking a checkride...what does the PTS say about how fast to fly the ILS and where to touch down?
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That's a good point. If you go fly a 130 knot ILS and land halfway down the runway on your checkride, you will fail. The PTS requires a stabilized approach:
11. Establishes a stabilized approach profile with a rate of descent and track that will ensure arrival at the MDA prior to reaching the MAP
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AC 120-108 defines a stabilized approach:

a. Stabilized Approaches. A stabilized approach is a key feature to a safe approach and landing. Operators are encouraged by the FAA and the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) to use the stabilized approach concept to help eliminate CFIT. The stabilized approach concept is characterized by maintaining a stable approach speed, descent rate, vertical flightpath, and configuration to the landing touchdown point. Depart the FAF configured for landing and on the proper approach speed, power setting, and flightpath before descending below the minimum stabilized approach height; e.g., 1,000 feet above the airport elevation and at a rate of descent no greater than 1,000 feet per minute (fpm), unless specifically briefed. (See AC 120-71.)
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MauleSkinner said:
I assume you're planning on taking a checkride...what does the PTS say about how fast to fly the ILS and where to touch down?
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It doesn't. It says +/- 10kts from the chosen speed. I would choose about 95kts from the FAF if I were in real conditions. My CFII wants it much faster.

Just for reference, I have 28.5hrs hood time, zero actual (I live in Nevada) with 54 approaches. When I fly with a safety pilot I do fly slower - about 110kts, slowing to closer to 100 at the FAF. Those tend to work out better.
 
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How do you comply with
Transitions to a normal landing approach (missed approach for seaplanes) only when the aircraft is in a position from which a descent to a landing on the runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvering.

Maintains localizer and glideslope within 3⁄4-scale deflection of the indicators during the visual descent from DA/DH to a point over the runway where glideslope must be abandoned to accomplish a normal landing.
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Right. It does not say anything about where you must touch down. I slowed form 130kts to 80kts while leveling off at 200' AGL and then made a normal descent and touchdown... except it was much further down the runway than a normal landing. The rate of decent and maneuvering were normal.
 
It's generally bad for a piston engine to abruptly chop off the power, due to excessive cylinder cooling rate. Which is one more reason to slow down a bit past the FAF. I generally go slow enough to allow 10 degree flaps, unless I have heavy iron on my tail, in which case I try to be a good neighbor and keep the speed up to the MAP. I would expect a student to be exposed to both modes in training, and to learn when to use each in the real world.
 
DesertNomad said:
Right. It does not say anything about where you must touch down. I slowed form 130kts to 80kts while leveling off at 200' AGL and then made a normal descent and touchdown... except it was much further down the runway than a normal landing. The rate of decent and maneuvering were normal.
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And would have earned you a bust on the check ride. At 200' it should be a stable continuous descent to a landing, not leveling off in order to slow for your landing speed. And there are runway markings that you should be touching down within, not mid runway. Your CFI I feel is instructing you wrong and doing you a disservice.
 
Thanks for that. I think I will try to fly with the DPE soon (not a checkride) as he is also a local CFII. I have also tried not to chop power aggressively but to pull it back slowly. I am not flying the ILS at cruise power or I'd be alot more than 130kts. Still, I think it is way to fast.
 
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DesertNomad said:
Right. It does not say anything about where you must touch down. I slowed form 130kts to 80kts while leveling off at 200' AGL and then made a normal descent and touchdown... except it was much further down the runway than a normal landing. The rate of decent and maneuvering were normal.
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Even if it's normal for you to level off at 200 feet to slow down, you just saId your landing isn't normal.

For the record, I was looking at the PTS, not the ACS...my bad.

However, from the ACS...
12. Maintain the localizer and glideslope within 3⁄4-scale deflection of the indicators during the visual descent from DA/DH to a point over the runway where the glideslope must be abandoned to accomplish a normal landing.
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Choose wisely.
 
90 knots was my target always. Please do not forget that YOU are the customer. It's clear to me and most others he's not giving you solid training advise on this. In my opinion, he's really setting you up for failure.
 
Unit74 said:
... In my opinion, he's really setting you up for failure.
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More importantly, he is teaching you a technique that is more dangerous than more conservative and conventional approaches.
 
I'm often wrong... as you've all read... but...

I'm working to be configured for landing and at normal approach speed by the FAF. Perhaps I've been lead astray.

What's your normal approach speed on a CAVU day?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Even if it's normal for you to level off at 200 feet to slow down, you just saId your landing isn't normal.
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Well the actual landing is fine - it's just about 2-3 thousand feet beyond where I'd like to touch down. You are not supposed to pull into space-dock at Warp 2.

Ravioli said:
What's your normal approach speed on a CAVU day?
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If it is straight-in like I often get in Reno, 100kts by 1000' and the last 1/2 mile at 80kts, over the numbers at 75 with 2 notches of flaps.

I just spoke with the DPE who agreed to come fly with me as a sort of phase-check (though it is a part 61 school). He thinks slower would be better and will talk with my CFII. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I knew there was a reason I prefer flying with a safety pilot over my CFII on these approaches. :)
 
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DesertNomad said:
If it is straight-in like I often get in Reno, 100kts by 1000' and the last 1/2 mile at 80kts, over the numbers at 75 with 2 notches of flaps.

I just spoke with the DPE who agreed to come fly with me as a sort of phase-check (though it is a part 61 school). He thinks slower would be better and will talk with my CFII. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I knew there was a reason I prefer flying with a safety pilot over my CFII on these approaches. :)
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Yah... (check my math) but 50% FASTER than normal approach seems back ass wards when you're going to minimums where more time is more better.
 
and my vote is for more better too. ;)

but, geez, why wouldn't he wait till you had the approaches nailed then throw a fast ball in there once and a while?
 
130 kts is going to bump you up a category, so you'll want to watch that if it becomes a habit, depending on the approach. That said, I like to fly mine @ 120 kts. Does away with all the timing interpolations, and the airplane flies like it's on rails. Gear down at the FAF or thunderbolt gives me a 500fpm rate, right on the GS.
 
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DesertNomad said:
I just spoke with the DPE who agreed to come fly with me as a sort of phase-check (though it is a part 61 school). He thinks slower would be better and will talk with my CFII. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I knew there was a reason I prefer flying with a safety pilot over my CFII on these approaches. :)
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Good for you! Don't sweat ticking off your CFI either. Hopefully the DPE will drill some sense into him. There's always other CFIIs I hope you could switch to. Good luck!
 
You DO fly an ILS faster than a VFR approach. The reason is to have a prompt climb on the missed approach, ahead of the power curve. You will be less than 200 AGL and unable to see the runway.

How much faster? That depends on the airplane. In a 172/177/182, my speed is 90 knots with one notch flaps and gear down. At DH, throttle goes to idle and flaps to full. It definitely is a rapid adjustment, but I can still get it down by the touchdown zone markers without much trouble.

Yes, I did do that on my checkride. Even worse, I had a DC10 on my six and descended at 110 KIAS in a 172, and did a touch'n'go at the 1000 foot marker.

Similar numbers seem to work for an Archer, but I don't know about your airplane. I really wouldn't expect it to be that much faster.
 
The DPE and CFII are friends but I do feel a bit weird "going behind his back".

I am sure that works in a 182 at 90kts. At 130kts, not so much. I also don't like rapid throttle changes.
 
DesertNomad said:
The DPE and CFII are friends but I do feel a bit weird "going behind his back".

I am sure that works in a 182 at 90kts. At 130kts, not so much. I also don't like rapid throttle changes.
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Try 90 kts, wouldn't surprise me if that's what the DPE would recommend too.
 
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