Is it mandatory to perform a new weight and balance after a paint job?

Katamarino

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Katamarino
Question as in the title.

For clarity, I want to get the aircraft weighed anyway and I'm curious about whether a paint shop will do this automatically when the job is complete.
 
The maintenance manuals will tell you that the control surfaces need their mass balances checked after painting. Guess how often that happens.

If the airplane wasn't stripped but painted over the old stuff, it will be heavier and W&B should be redone.
 
You are so right about control surface balancing. I'm surprised how many A&Ps are unfamiliar with the process.

These pictures taken while a group of A&Ps working on the field showed up and became knowledgeable of control surface balancing and adjusting the counter weights. Some of the mechanics worked for a paint shop and said they where told that aircraft that cruised less then 150 knots didn't need balancing. Another said they painted several Mooneys and never balanced the controls.
140924ControlSurfaceBalance3.jpg
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I just got my plane back from the paint shop a couple of weeks ago. They re-balanced the control surfaces, but the only update to the overall plane w&b was a calculation for antennas that were permanently removed. All the old paint was stripped off prior to painting.
 
... All the old paint was stripped off prior to painting.
When I repainted my airplane I considered this essential. Otherwise you have no idea what is going on under that paint. Corrosion is a killer and anyone who thinks it's cheaper not to strip off all the old paint is fooling himself in the long run.

Also take the opportunity to replace wingtips, fairings, etc. With a lot of airplanes (like my 172N) the OEM is cheap plastic that cracks and when repainting, it's false economy not to replace that stuff with higher quality fiberglass.
 
Also take the opportunity to replace wingtips, fairings, etc.

True, but mine had all been replaced recently and were in good shape.

The shop did replace all the external screws, camlocs, etc., and that’s well worth doing. Old, discolored, buggered-up fasteners will look awful next to shiny new paint.
 
The lack of knowledge of some mechanics is astonishing. Charging north of 14k even for pretty basic paint schemes, unaware of the need to balance control surfaces and even unable to make a proper log book entry. If you are using 8 gallons or more of primer and paint during the process you will probably end up with a different W&B.

See AC43.13-1b Chapter 10 for guidance: empty weight less than 5,000 lbs any weight change of 1 lbs or more is not negligible.
 
When dealing with in/lb on an 8” wide aileron, how much is a dry paint exchange is going change the balance? A 1 oz change in aileron weight would possibly change the balance .5 in/lb.
 
When dealing with in/lb on an 8” wide aileron, how much is a dry paint exchange is going change the balance? A 1 oz change in aileron weight would possibly change the balance .5 in/lb.

The elevators I checked off a 182L last year were just barely inside the limit of course that means the lightest possible balance weight is insalled.
 
When dealing with in/lb on an 8” wide aileron, how much is a dry paint exchange is going change the balance? A 1 oz change in aileron weight would possibly change the balance .5 in/lb.
We found them off, and had to add weight. Cessna didn't use any more balance weight that they needed to, and they were using light lacquers or enamels, with no primer beneath. Strip those off and put on epoxy primers, then urethanes, both of which weigh a lot more than the old stuff, and the balance WILL change. And why are they balanced? To prevent flutter at high speeds within the Vne.

Also figuring into flutter control are cable tensions. I've often found those below minimum, as well as misrigged altogether.
 
We saw one (just out of the paint shop) that had the controls painted while on the airplane. They didn’t even take them off! They definitely didn’t balance anything.

Another was painted with a wide brush. I’m serious. The whole airplane was brushed over, apparently by the owner.

Some small paint shops are operating without being a repair station or having any A&Ps on site. The ones I’m familiar with are having an A&P come in on the last day to balance and sign off the job. Doesn’t seem proper to me. The airframe should at least be inspected for corrosion after paint removal by a licensed mechanic.
 
You are so right about control surface balancing. I'm surprised how many A&Ps are unfamiliar with the process.

These pictures taken while a group of A&Ps working on the field showed up and became knowledgeable of control surface balancing and adjusting the counter weights. Some of the mechanics worked for a paint shop and said they where told that aircraft that cruised less then 150 knots didn't need balancing. Another said they painted several Mooneys and never balanced the controls.
View attachment 130829
View attachment 130830

I had an elevator flutter on me at 145 knots once. That was a wake up call and a reminder that VNE is True airspeed not Indicated airspeed. Fortunately it was low frequency and recoverable but that was just luck of the draw. Flutter is dangerous.

Brian
 
To keep the weight of the paint to a minimum don’t put stripes,etc on your control surfaces. First they paint the base color, then the stripes.

I wonder how much weight a paint job adds?

I agree stripping the original paint is required, the PO of my plane did a cheap job and it didn’t last 10 years.
 
I wonder how much weight a paint job adds?
It's going to depend on what is used and how many coats are sprayed. A gallon of two part is going to weigh around 10 pounds when sprayed out, depending on spray conditions and how much additives are required. A C-172 will require about 3 gallons of top coat and 2 gallons of primer.
 
A gallon of two part is going to weigh around 10 pounds when sprayed out
Is that truly the weight of just the solids, or are you including all the volatiles that are going to evaporate?
 
Jim: That's about what's left after spraying out and full cure. A full gallon of mixed paint, and various additives while still liquid is probably close to 18 pounds. Remember, with two part, most of them are 1:1 mix ratios for the base and hardener/catalyst, with anything up to 4:1 ratio on the additives in addition. The books for whatever airplane should give you the balance info. For example, my big Fairchild, the rudder has to have less than 1 pound down force, measured at 13" from the center of the hinge line.
 
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There are 2 topics here:

W&B of the aircraft

and

balancing of flight controls


Assure your agreement with the shop addresses this.
 
For example, my big Fairchild, the rudder has to have less than 1 pound down force, measured at 13" from the center of the hinge line.
From a Cessna 172 service manual, some examples and notes:

1719936123467.png
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Some large ranges there. But the 172 isn't a fast airplane. Plenty of others are faster and need narrower ranges. In any case, the balance needs checking, whether before or after painting. There is no guarantee that Cessna made the surfaces well within the unpainted ranges at manufacture.

Control surface repairs, patches or replacement of sections of skin, can seriously affect the balance. So can accumulated dirt inside the surface. I have also found considerable paint-stripping residue inside those surfaces. They're not getting flushed out properly, probably because the job is being done with the airplane assembled.
 
There are 2 topics here:

W&B of the aircraft

and

balancing of flight controls


Assure your agreement with the shop addresses this.
It's been stated that if you add a 5 pound radio that a Weight & Balance revision is necessary so, why wouldn't adding 18 pounds of paint?

How do you find the Center of Gravity of a paint job?
 
It's been stated that if you add a 5 pound radio that a Weight & Balance revision is necessary so, why wouldn't adding 18 pounds of paint?

How do you find the Center of Gravity of a paint job?

By using scales and weighing the airplane.
 
Well I dropped my airplane off at the paint shop yesterday and asked. They said that on small aircraft they don't usually weigh them, but we agreed that they would weigh mine and prepare a new weight and balance.
 
Well I dropped my airplane off at the paint shop yesterday and asked. They said that on small aircraft they don't usually weigh them, but we agreed that they would weigh mine and prepare a new weight and balance.

Be sure to come back and let us know how much it changes.
 
Be sure to come back and let us know how much it changes.
The reason I wanted a new W&B is because of the many, many mods I've made to it over the past 5 years. So any change will be a combination of paint job, but probably mainly drift from doing all those mods and updating the W&B by calculation, not measurement.
 
The reason I wanted a new W&B is because of the many, many mods I've made to it over the past 5 years. So any change will be a combination of paint job, but probably mainly drift from doing all those mods and updating the W&B by calculation, not measurement.
I’d still suggest double-checking their math.
 
The reason I wanted a new W&B is because of the many, many mods I've made to it over the past 5 years. So any change will be a combination of paint job, but probably mainly drift from doing all those mods and updating the W&B by calculation, not measurement.

Understood. Mine's the same way; many pieces of equipment installed and removed over the years, some logged as "negligible" for W&B, sometimes with new calculations. Some stuff was logged in but never out when it was removed. Besides, I've found and corrected two calculation errors, so there are probably more.

Someday I'll have the thing weighed and get a clean, fresh number, but in the meantime I stay away from the load limits. I doubt the weight is wrong by more than my passengers' fibs about their personal weights, anyway. :) Neither of the errors I've found moved the CG by more than a couple of tenths of an inch.
 
You may want to talk to your IA re control balancing.

Most likely he/ she will want a written entry on this.

Without it you could wind up pulling controls at next Annual.
 
You may want to talk to your IA re control balancing.

Most likely he/ she will want a written entry on this.

Without it you could wind up pulling controls at next Annual.

My controls were rebalanced and there is a log entry.
 
Understood. Mine's the same way; many pieces of equipment installed and removed over the years, some logged as "negligible" for W&B, sometimes with new calculations. Some stuff was logged in but never out when it was removed. Besides, I've found and corrected two calculation errors, so there are probably more.

Someday I'll have the thing weighed and get a clean, fresh number, but in the meantime I stay away from the load limits. I doubt the weight is wrong by more than my passengers' fibs about their personal weights, anyway. :) Neither of the errors I've found moved the CG by more than a couple of tenths of an inch.

I put all the W&B into a spreadsheet and found about 20 errors out of 100 entries, transposing digits, missing, math errors…but when all was said and done, it was only off by 2 lbs.
I put it in my POH for future reference.
 
Because you presumably removed approximately 18 pounds of old paint first.
With a good cleaning before painting you'll probably remove weight in excess of the the paint alone.
 
With a good cleaning before painting you'll probably remove weight in excess of the the paint alone.

No way. How dirty do you let your plane get? I just cleaned mine, and even including the paper towels it wouldn’t add up to a pound.
 
No way. How dirty do you let your plane get? I just cleaned mine, and even including the paper towels it wouldn’t add up to a pound.
Open up the floorboards and get a look in the tailcone. Dust gets blown into the tail, and moisture can flush it down under the floorboards. Dirt from shoes finds its way under the floor. Oil from the engine runs down the belly and gets through lap seams in the skins and mixes with the dirt and makes considerable sticky sludge, sludge that often blocks drain holes in the belly so that even more moisture accumulates. I have seen watermarks in bellies indicating that there was serious accumulation.

Washing the outside of the airplane does nothing at all for the inside.

I have found numerous pens and batteries and nuts and screws and cut-off zip ties in bellies, too. On rare occasions, tools. Or dead mice. And mouse nests. An awful lot of airplanes are 40 and 50 years old, lots of time for all sorts of debris to accumulate.
 
I was surprised by how much aluminum shavings were in the belly of my 172 front to back from when it was built. And several drain holes were blocked with shavings. And after 40 years they were stuck in there pretty good as I needed to use a scotch brite pad to knock them loose and then vacuum them out.
 
I was surprised by how much aluminum shavings were in the belly of my 172 front to back from when it was built. And several drain holes were blocked with shavings. And after 40 years they were stuck in there pretty good as I needed to use a scotch brite pad to knock them loose and then vacuum them out.

The plane is probably unairworthy now.....
:devil:
 
No way. How dirty do you let your plane get? I just cleaned mine, and even including the paper towels it wouldn’t add up to a pound.
Here's a fun party game: ask all the anp's you know how many have found tools in wings, fuselages, engine bays.

What about that extra can or two of oil ppl take just in case and forgot about? Or manuals that are not needed anymore. The number of rentals I've flown with side pockets full or random crap is to darn high.
 
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I put all the W&B into a spreadsheet and found about 20 errors out of 100 entries, transposing digits, missing, math errors…but when all was said and done, it was only off by 2 lbs.
I, on the other hand, have flown an inch outside the envelope due to an error in the empty calculations.

Some errors cancel out, some not so much.
 
Hey - need some pictures of the new paint!
You missed the thread?
 
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