Is GA flying for transportation dead?

So, it will never be economical, but it can save time, a factor that needs to be included.

This is our primary reason for flying, both business and personal.

Mary and I take a total of 18 hours off per week. (That's not a typo.) If we have any hope of getting off the island for business or pleasure, it pretty much has to be in the airplane, or we won't make it back in time.

An airplane is nothing if not a time machine. :yesnod:
 
I do not share your opinion on cost. I have the plane anyway, even if I don't fly it a single hour, it's going to cost me insurance + hangar + maintenance. If I didn't take the trip, I am still paying the mx+h+i. It cost me nothing extra except fuel and oil to fly it. When you take a trip by car, do you figure your cost at $0.39/mile, and your license plate fees, and your car insurance, and everything else? No. You figure it on your credit card receipt at the pump. Same with my plane, I already have it. The trip cost me <$450.
I pretty much agree with your costing philosophy except that there are some extras that do add to the price for a trip. The biggest is operational related maintenance such as engine/prop overhauls, accessory replacement (alternator, vac pump, etc), tires and brakes, and anything else that will take more money out of your pocket down the road if you make the trip than if you don't. Another (relatively small) trip expense group is the stuff purchased during and/or for the specific trip such as transient ramp/tiedown/hangar fees, charts (less likely today), and the extra cost of emergency maintenance away from home. For the trip in question I'd estimate that these extra costs amounted to something around $15/hr, certainly not enough to change your decision to fly a trip.
 
Right. I have come to the conclusion that I live in the worst possible city in the country to try to justify GA transportation by cost. But then I never went into it thinking of it as transportation. The two things that appealed to me were low and slow, looking at the scenery and manipulating the airplane in various ways. Now it's my source of income. That way other people get to think of it as transportation. :idea:

Right, but the people who you are flying have much more money than most of us have, and are typically traveling for business purposes. The same goes for me.

You do live in a particularly bad part of the country for relatively affordable GA. What's worse is that you happen to travel west of that place for most of you personal trips. Too bad they won't let you borrow the Twin Cessna for the weekend. :)

For personal purposes (like Ed and Lance) or businesses that require the aircraft, the sunk cost argument can work since you need the airplane anyway. It doesn't work for me since I need to be able to quantify a number that my aircraft cost per hour for writing grants and the like, and it doesn't work for a number of other cases since the aircraft must somehow be charged, and simply charging for fuel means you're losing money.

I think the valid point that Ed makes for most of us is that we are going to have the airplane anyway because we choose to. As such, we're going to spend what we spend on it. Once I got past the point of the first year of ownership on the Aztec (which involved a lot of repairs and upgrades), it's been more or less fuel, hangar, and insurance, all of which I'm paying anyway. However, the fact that I need to justify costs to external sources means I need to make at least a reasonable estimate at total hourly costs.
 
Right, but the people who you are flying have much more money than most of us have, and are typically traveling for business purposes. The same goes for me.

Not necessarily. Since JCA 2004's provisions regarding personal use of business aircraft, a much higher percentage of jets and turboprops are held for personal use. Under the prior Sutherland doctrine, almost all were held for business use.

We never claimed a dime of business use on our B-200, and thereby forfeited a limited amount of tax savings. On the other hand, personal use airplanes are exempt from property tax in TX, so we saved ~$2k/mo expense.

I think the valid point that Ed makes for most of us is that we are going to have the airplane anyway because we choose to. As such, we're going to spend what we spend on it. Once I got past the point of the first year of ownership on the Aztec (which involved a lot of repairs and upgrades), it's been more or less fuel, hangar, and insurance, all of which I'm paying anyway. However, the fact that I need to justify costs to external sources means I need to make at least a reasonable estimate at total hourly costs.

Again, the high-finance, Wall-Street slickster cost calculation isn't all that difficult, even for engineers. Just divide cost by volume. You can even do it on your phone. :wink2:
 
Again, the high-finance, Wall-Street slickster cost calculation isn't all that difficult, even for engineers. Just divide cost by volume. You can even do it on your phone. :wink2:

That's what I do. Except I take it one step further, and estimate costs out for items I haven't yet had to pay for (but know I will) in my hourly calculations. See, that degree was worth something besides covering up the hole in the wall where I missed the nail (and, for once, my thumb).
 
See there, you's is getting smarter already.

That's what I do. Except I take it one step further, and estimate costs out for items I haven't yet had to pay for (but know I will) in my hourly calculations. See, that degree was worth something besides covering up the hole in the wall where I missed the nail (and, for once, my thumb).
 
Right, but the people who you are flying have much more money than most of us have, and are typically traveling for business purposes. The same goes for me.
I've found that the reasons people and companies own or charter business aircraft are as variable as their personalities. For some businesses it's just a piece of their transportation solution and the passengers don't appear to feel one way or another about the airplane as long as it gets them to the place that they want to go. Or, more importantly, home. On the other hand, there are people for whom I think the airplane is an extension of their ego. These are the hardest people to fly, IMHO.
 
Woke up in Eleuthera just had dinner in Memphis. Stopped in ATL and saw the Memphis Belle. Not bad for a slow Cessna single in a day. Not to mention the weather made it quite sporty.

Hard day to put a number on.
 
I like EdFred's marginal cost analysis as a way to determine trip cost. I guess I'd add oil as well into that as it is a consumable like fuel.
 
I've found that the reasons people and companies own or charter business aircraft are as variable as their personalities. For some businesses it's just a piece of their transportation solution and the passengers don't appear to feel one way or another about the airplane as long as it gets them to the place that they want to go. Or, more importantly, home. On the other hand, there are people for whom I think the airplane is an extension of their ego. These are the hardest people to fly, IMHO.

Agreed. I think I may have not conveyed what I meant very well. The ego folks are difficult to deal with.

If we could afford it, we'd probably end up owning an MU-2 and use that for our personal transport. Good compromise of speed and practicality for our needs. We can't, so even though that extra 100 kts over what we're doing right now would be nice, we just need to accept it. Some people have more money, and can afford a 400+ kt aircraft for their time, and have a justification for it. That justification quite possibly is "I want to get home and see my family faster" (which is the same as mine).

But if you can't afford to fly, you're stuck driving/walking with the speed that comes with it.
 
Depending on the connections, a trip of 1,000 miles or less can be faster than a commercial flight. This does not include traveling to the airport with commercial flights, checking in luggage, waiting for TSA screening, etc, or collecting luggage at the far end, and then arranging local transportation.



So, it will never be economical, but it can save time, a factor that needs to be included.

And what's your time worth anyway?
 
If the crank had broken and required a teardown & replacement while you were enroute, would you just add the $15k to the trip cost?

I like EdFred's marginal cost analysis as a way to determine trip cost. I guess I'd add oil as well into that as it is a consumable like fuel.
 
Woke up in Eleuthera just had dinner in Memphis. Stopped in ATL and saw the Memphis Belle. Not bad for a slow Cessna single in a day. Not to mention the weather made it quite sporty.

Hard day to put a number on.

Cool trip, but the Memphis Belle ain't in Atlanta. :dunno:
 
Cool trip, but the Memphis Belle ain't in Atlanta. :dunno:

I didn't thik it was restored yet after the fiasco in memphis, seems that it's one from a movie or something?


The Movie Memphis Belle B-17 and P-40 will be visiting Atlanta the weekend of June 9-10th.

Atlanta, GA
Peachtree-DeKalb Airport
Epps Aviation
1 Aviation Way
Atlanta, GA 30341

Check out our website for specific details: www.libertyfoundation.org
Posted at 10:08AM, 1 June 2012 PDT (permalink)
 
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If the crank had broken and required a teardown & replacement while you were enroute, would you just add the $15k to the trip cost?

I was referring to determining the expected marginal cost of a hypothetical planned trip not the overall cost of owning an airplane or even the actual expenditure on a given trip. So this question makes no sense. If with perfect foresight I could expect the crank to fail I wouldn't make the trip - I'd be fixing the crank.

I understand your viewpoint and it makes total sense when determining the total cost of ownership in retrospect. But I also like to think about the marginal cost of a trip using the consumables which can be directly attributed to those hours of operation. IMHO they are both useful numbers for different purposes.
 
On the other hand, there are people for whom I think the airplane is an extension of their ego. These are the hardest people to fly, IMHO.

I just don't have time to deal with people like that. I have to for work sometimes, like you, but choose not to in my personal time. I think once turbines are involved, things escalate. :D
 
And I agree that calculating trip costs is worthwhile for many reasons, but that recognition that they are but a small part of of total own/op costs is critically important insofar as affordability and utilization are concerned.

I can't remember the last forum thread with "the plane has cost much less than I expected, and I'm trying to figure out ways to spend all this extra money." Those that discuss dissolution of co-ownership because one of the owners insisted on paying far more than his share of costs are equally rare.


I was referring to determining the expected marginal cost of a hypothetical planned trip not the overall cost of owning an airplane or even the actual expenditure on a given trip. So this question makes no sense. If with perfect foresight I could expect the crank to fail I wouldn't make the trip - I'd be fixing the crank.

I understand your viewpoint and it makes total sense when determining the total cost of ownership in retrospect. But I also like to think about the marginal cost of a trip using the consumables which can be directly attributed to those hours of operation. IMHO they are both useful numbers for different purposes.
 
I haven't read through ALL of the posts, so I don't know if this thread has drifted off of the OP, but....

I still use GA for personal travel much more than airlines, and I live < 45mins away from KATL. We've been planning a trip to Iowa for the past several months. I just did a quick rate check and the cheapest flights I can find would cost us $806 round trip and be over 14 hours travel time round trip plus the extra 2 hours on each end for getting to the airport, through security, etc., so you're looking at 18 hours of dedicated travel time in the airline system.

In the RV-10, it will be 4 hours of flight time each way (no wind) at ~15gph which equates to about $720 at $6/gal fuel. Add 1 hour on each end for getting to the airport, fueling, and pre-flight and you're looking at 10 hours total travel time in the GA system, which is cheaper and faster than the airlines.

Yes, there is more reliability in arrival time with the airline system, but since we are now traveling with a 7-month old, 'schedule reliability' is trumped by not having to put my kid through the cancer-ray or being molested by a high-school dropout.

If I can find a way to have my company expense at least a portion of my avgas, I will start using GA for business travel as well, which will actually save my company cheaper for the ~5-700 mile jumps that I've been doing fairly regularly lately.
 
I think once turbines are involved, things escalate. :D
Not necessarily. People of all different income levels come in all different personalities. Some of the nicest, most humble people I've met are wealthy. I think it's all a matter of perspective. All of us here are wealthy compared to people in some other parts of the world. You become accustomed to a certain style of living and that becomes "normal".
 
Not necessarily. People of all different income levels come in all different personalities. Some of the nicest, most humble people I've met are wealthy. I think it's all a matter of perspective. All of us here are wealthy compared to people in some other parts of the world. You become accustomed to a certain style of living and that becomes "normal".

Correct. The most down-to-earth person at my airport owns a Cheyenne he flies to Florida weekly.
 
I haven't read through ALL of the posts, so I don't know if this thread has drifted off of the OP, but....

I still use GA for personal travel much more than airlines, and I live < 45mins away from KATL. We've been planning a trip to Iowa for the past several months. I just did a quick rate check and the cheapest flights I can find would cost us $806 round trip and be over 14 hours travel time round trip plus the extra 2 hours on each end for getting to the airport, through security, etc., so you're looking at 18 hours of dedicated travel time in the airline system.

In the RV-10, it will be 4 hours of flight time each way (no wind) at ~15gph which equates to about $720 at $6/gal fuel. Add 1 hour on each end for getting to the airport, fueling, and pre-flight and you're looking at 10 hours total travel time in the GA system, which is cheaper and faster than the airlines.

Does taking the airline require you to invest $150k up front or burden you with $5-8k in fixed costs every year, not including the opportunity cost of having $150k tied up in the RV? Honest to gosh, do what you want with your airplane, but be honest with yourself. It is an expensive convenience (for the times when it is convenient), and it is far more expensive than flying commercial unless you're shading your argument in an attempt to convince a reluctant spouse.

I'm OK with that. I've told my wife that there is no way to justify an airplane other than that flying gives me incredible enjoyment, even better if I can kill two birds with one stone by using it for something practical and enjoying the flying part at the same time...
 
OK, the Memphis Belle used to make the movie was at PDK yesterday.

http://libertyfoundation.org/schedule.html

Like I said, very, very, specific group. I should have checked the serial number before posting.

Sheesh.

Sorry, I had NO idea there was a flying rendition of the Memphis Belle out there!

Man, ol' Bob (Morgan, pilot of the original Belle) would be ****ED if he was still alive. Of course, he hated the Hollywood movie altogether.
 
Does taking the airline require you to invest $150k up front or burden you with $5-8k in fixed costs every year, not including the opportunity cost of having $150k tied up in the RV? Honest to gosh, do what you want with your airplane, but be honest with yourself. It is an expensive convenience (for the times when it is convenient), and it is far more expensive than flying commercial unless you're shading your argument in an attempt to convince a reluctant spouse.

I'm OK with that. I've told my wife that there is no way to justify an airplane other than that flying gives me incredible enjoyment, even better if I can kill two birds with one stone by using it for something practical and enjoying the flying part at the same time...
I think that's a good way to look at it. Whenever I hear people trying to justify the cost of using an airplane for travel I think about the people who buy these big bass boats. Do they try to justify their purchase by adding up the cost savings of the fish they catch compared to what it would cost at the grocery store? I think not. If flying gives you pleasure then it is worth the money.
 
The only people who have to justify flying are those who do it on someone else's dime. This is where J. Mac is wrong to even bring it up in a GA article.

I choose to spend my time and energy paying to fly airplanes, and that's not even newsworthy in GA, because that's what we choose to do.

That's what J. Mac doesn't even "get". He doesn't spend his own money and has no skin in the game.
 
time and energy paying to fly airplanes, and that's not even newsworthy in GA, because that's what we choose to do.

I fly GA because I want to fly GA, it's fun and it is faster than driving. If we had Autobahns instead of Interstates then I would have to reconsider driving.
 
I've known JMac since he had the Mooney before the Bonanza before the Baron, and I know the model he uses because I used the same one for many years. He bought, owns and maintains his planes and is reimbursed at a competitive hourly rate for flying on company business. When he flies to Carolina to see the kids in school, or any other personal use trips, it's his nickel, as is the MX and fixed costs.

I'm not sure that Mac is the one who "doesn't get it" and will give even odds that his skin in the game is signicantly greater than yours by at least 2X. Set the amount of the wager and I'll call him and get the information.

And it's not because people "have to" justify flying, it's because they "choose to" justify it, and are appalled at the increased costs and hassles are making it increasingly difficult to do so.

The only people who have to justify flying are those who do it on someone else's dime. This is where J. Mac is wrong to even bring it up in a GA article.

I choose to spend my time and energy paying to fly airplanes, and that's not even newsworthy in GA, because that's what we choose to do.

That's what J. Mac doesn't even "get". He doesn't spend his own money and has no skin in the game.
 
I've known JMac since he had the Mooney before the Bonanza before the Baron, and I know the model he uses because I used the same one for many years. He bought, owns and maintains his planes and is reimbursed at a competitive hourly rate for flying on company business. When he flies to Carolina to see the kids in school, or any other personal use trips, it's his nickel, as is the MX and fixed costs.

I'm not sure that Mac is the one who "doesn't get it" and will give even odds that his skin in the game is signicantly greater than yours by at least 2X. Set the amount of the wager and I'll call him and get the information.

And it's not because people "have to" justify flying, it's because they "choose to" justify it, and are appalled at the increased costs and hassles are making it increasingly difficult to do so.

Well, next time you talk to him, tell him to start writing about those trips instead of tabloid headlines. ;) He's a far cry from Gordon Baxter. One built up aviation telling stories from both old and new.

Aviation has always been both "dying" in the magazines and about to boom. Next month there will be yet another article about the always upcoming "pilot shortage" in the airlines. It's been that way, as long as I can remember. Bax (RIP), Schiff, Machado, Lane and others don't resort to "the sky is fallingz" to up, their web ratings.

I don't care to play the "who's wallet/whatever is bigger" game, that's a losing proposition in a match with a nationally known author, against the average "nobody" in his audience, of course. Which is as it should be. My P&L statement is mine. His is his.

But I still disagree. In terms of Net Worth, I still believe he has less skin in the game. More money in the game isn't the definition of "skin". "Skin" is when the airplane and aviation on your own dime is all you've got. (Unless he's writing it while thinking about dumping the Baron. Who knows... He doesn't say. Details of that would certainly make the article feel more "finished". As it stands, it's an open-ended question that asks nothing new.)

Most of his audience spends every dime they have and many from non-discretionary funds, the finance their flying dreams. Mac may have done that once or not. Can't tell from his USA Today style article.

All that the article conveys to me is that all that Mac "gets" is the past. The rest of us are flying or not flying in the now. His article doesn't claim he's doing it. It claims that in the past he was flying someone else.

His new employer pushes the fact that building and flying for Sport *are* attainable goals for a great many. The article feels out of place at EAA. At Flying, where his job seemed to be similar to the Stig on Top Gear, driving around the latest and greatest jet gadgetry, it wouldn't have really fit in either.

The information you possess about his aircraft ownership and utilization and his reasoning why he's all of a sudden interested in how airlines have operated at huge losses for decades, could have been included in the article. They weren't.

Why did he buy the Baron instead of taking the airline flight? Does he still use it? Is he thinking about selling it? That or interviews of others thinking the same, would save fleshed out the article.

The article ONLY indicates that he does his flying on other's dimes. If he wanted to talk about his experiences as an aircraft owner and how he's managed costs and keeps flying those personal flights, he should have.

The article, as written, leaves out both his own personal story of aircraft ownership and ignores the audience's preclivity to the same. At best, it states the obvious... at worst, it reads like an attack article on GA. Especially to someone new to aviation.

Why would a budding pilot want to read that? Some guy who says he's been flying someone else's airplanes for 37 years -- suddenly just noticed that deregulated airlines are more cut-throat than they were in the 80's?

Yawn. I'd rather watch the two guys building their airplane in their garage on YouTube for inspiration and leadership. And do. Those guys and the Internet killed Mac's magazine. It just hasn't died yet.

His writing format about the jet flying he was doing, fit Flying. It doesn't fit the declared mission of EAA. Why would a membership organization even accept an article that attacks their member's lifestyle choices?

If he's saying a whole lot of doofuses changed the fiscal landscape between now and back when he decided that GA travel was something he still apparently chooses to do, let me share apiece of wisdom with him... "Duh!"

It read to me like he's about to sell off the Barron. ;)
 
I don't know anything about the guy but in the article he says he has a Baron.

Perhaps the article is out of frustration from flying a 30gal/ hr plane on $6 gas...

When gas hit almost $5 per gallon.. I was driving a big V8 jeep with mud tires. I bought a $1500 4cyl saab and parked the jeep for awhile.

I think kyle has it right. I fly because I enjoy it, and its great that my friends/family can get some travel utility out of it.

My last big expensive hobby was motocross racing. I could get folks to come watch a race but cant show anyone what it feels like to jump a 120' triple..
 
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I think he's being a realist and he's not anti-GA. Read the last paragraph.

I think general aviation airplanes are still a wonderful and convenient way to travel, and I hope to keep flying trips for many more years. But through no fault of GA airplanes and pilots much of the transportation practicality of years ago is gone. That means for most of us flying purely for fun and perhaps to go to the remote, out of the way spot, will be the primary use for personal airplanes. And that makes sense. After all, I don’t sail my boat for transportation, only to get around the race mark ahead of the other guys.
 
I think that's a good way to look at it. Whenever I hear people trying to justify the cost of using an airplane for travel I think about the people who buy these big bass boats. Do they try to justify their purchase by adding up the cost savings of the fish they catch compared to what it would cost at the grocery store? I think not. If flying gives you pleasure then it is worth the money.

I think that since aviation can be used for transport in a practical sense (i.e. it's fast, whereas a boat is very slow), people tend to try to justify it more.

I've known JMac since he had the Mooney before the Bonanza before the Baron, and I know the model he uses because I used the same one for many years. He bought, owns and maintains his planes and is reimbursed at a competitive hourly rate for flying on company business. When he flies to Carolina to see the kids in school, or any other personal use trips, it's his nickel, as is the MX and fixed costs.

Exactly. Mixed utilization of aircraft, and specifically one where other people are writing checks to cover some use, need to be charged in a fair manner.

To give an example: Cloud Nine's 310 has an estimated hourly cost based on reasonable assumptions of engine overhaul cost, maintenance costs, reasonable repairs/upgrades, etc. This number should be competitive and accurate, since we want to give accurate numbers for grant proposals. When we use the 310 for personal reasons, we pay Cloud Nine for the use of the airplane at the same rate we estimate it to cost. This rate is updated yearly to reflect changes in costs of parts and labor, or to correct a poor estimation on my part.
 
Ahhh, the expected 40-point-ramble reply.
Well, next time you talk to him, tell him to start writing about those trips instead of tabloid headlines.

;) He's a far cry from Gordon Baxter. One built up aviation telling stories from both old and new.

Mac was origianlly hired as the technical editor. His job was to write about the machinery, and the numbers, not the mysteries and the auras. That particular area is difficult to master, and he was better at it than anybody else they could find. That's why he hired Lane, who has since followed him to EAA. Have you ever wondered why she did that?

Aviation has always been both "dying" in the magazines and about to boom. Next month there will be yet another article about the always upcoming "pilot shortage" in the airlines. It's been that way, as long as I can remember. Bax (RIP), Schiff, Machado, Lane and others don't resort to "the sky is fallingz" to up, their web ratings.

So analyzing and airing these blatantly obvious problems should be done where? In a boating mag?

I don't care to play the "who's wallet/whatever is bigger" game, that's a losing proposition in a match with a nationally known author, against the average "nobody" in his audience, of course. Which is as it should be. My P&L statement is mine. His is his.

This isn't about who is richest, it's about the level of commitment to the game.

But I still disagree. In terms of Net Worth, I still believe he has less skin in the game. More money in the game isn't the definition of "skin". "Skin" is when the airplane and aviation on your own dime is all you've got. (Unless he's writing it while thinking about dumping the Baron. Who knows... He doesn't say. Details of that would certainly make the article feel more "finished". As it stands, it's an open-ended question that asks nothing new.)

There is no standard definition of "skin" as it relates to aviation activities. Those like JMac, whose livelihood is totally dependent on GA, might disagree with yours.

Most of his audience spends every dime they have and many from non-discretionary funds, the finance their flying dreams. Mac may have done that once or not. Can't tell from his USA Today style article.

To the contrary, only a tiny minority of readers are hocked to the gills. Have you ever been to OSH? Have you seen the campgrounds, restaurants, vendor tents, airplanes and other stuff? Are you thinking the attendees borrowed or stole that stuff for the show?

All that the article conveys to me is that all that Mac "gets" is the past. The rest of us are flying or not flying in the now. His article doesn't claim he's doing it. It claims that in the past he was flying someone else.

Huh?

His new employer pushes the fact that building and flying for Sport *are* attainable goals for a great many. The article feels out of place at EAA. At Flying, where his job seemed to be similar to the Stig on Top Gear, driving around the latest and greatest jet gadgetry, it wouldn't have really fit in either.

JMac has been writing about aviation for many years and has actively participated in EAA and Airventure for most of them. Do you really think that EAA didn't know about his writing skills and style prior to the hire? Have you ever stopped to think that EAA is seeking to widen the tent? Have you ever counted the number of production airplanes at OSH? Do you think that EAA might be trying to more deeply penetrate that market?

The information you possess about his aircraft ownership and utilization and his reasoning why he's all of a sudden interested in how airlines have operated at huge losses for decades, could have been included in the article. They weren't.

He has written about them many times in other articles, as well as his successful stint as a sportswriter and other aspects of his career.

Why did he buy the Baron instead of taking the airline flight? Does he still use it? Is he thinking about selling it? That or interviews of others thinking the same, would save fleshed out the article.

Why does it matter? He wrote what he wrote because he obviously thought it was timely and pertinent. I agree with both. I spend every day in the airplane business, and will testify under oath that he's not the only guy who is making those noises. Jerry Temple will tell you the same thing about many other twin owners.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Baron go away, he used to fly a Cessna 140 and a RV-8 or similar might be a better fit now. OTOH, it's his article and his privilege to make that call if/when he chooses to do so.

The article ONLY indicates that he does his flying on other's dimes. If he wanted to talk about his experiences as an aircraft owner and how he's managed costs and keeps flying those personal flights, he should have.

He is a sensitive soul, and I'm sure he would appreciate your critique of his work, as well as your admonitions about how he should have done it. Drop him a note to that effect.

The article, as written, leaves out both his own personal story of aircraft ownership and ignores the audience's preclivity to the same. At best, it states the obvious... at worst, it reads like an attack article on GA. Especially to someone new to aviation.

See above. The industry is what it is. Are you thinking that should be a secret, or should go unacknowledged? Do pie-in-the-sky head-in-the-sand articles appeal to you more than those that deal in reality? If so, simply purchase a lifetime subscription to Plane and Pilot and be driveled to your heart's content.

Why would a budding pilot want to read that? Some guy who says he's been flying someone else's airplanes for 37 years -- suddenly just noticed that deregulated airlines are more cut-throat than they were in the 80's?

I'd guess he would want to know the truth about things he might not have considered until now. Do you think the article is aimed at newb's or guys like us? I accumulated almost 9k hours flying for my own business, but have openly admitted that I would have probably never owned an airplane if I had lived in Dallas with the SWA and AA hubs that now serve the market. Maybe I'm the only guy who has ever thought about it.

Yawn. I'd rather watch the two guys building their airplane in their garage on YouTube for inspiration and leadership. And do. Those guys and the Internet killed Mac's magazine. It just hasn't died yet.

I've helped build airplanes in garages and found it to be tedious beyond belief, so we obviously disagree on that subject. Fortunately, you can build and I can buy, so neither loses their place at the GA table.

The new owners who wanted all of their mags to follow the same cookie cutter format with the next 12 months are accountable for its decline, but the crappy economy since 2008 has been the biggest contributor to killing GA. You may have noticed that the guy who replaced JMac didn't last 60 days.

His writing format about the jet flying he was doing, fit Flying. It doesn't fit the declared mission of EAA. Why would a membership organization even accept an article that attacks their member's lifestyle choices?

Well, maybe they didn't read any of the stuff he has written for the past 30 years. OTOH, maybe they did. And your characterization of the article as an attack piece is ludicrous. As Ann Landers used to say, there are times when you've got to "wake up and smell the coffee." GA now finds itself in one of those times. How can recapping and stimulating discussion of this obvious problem be a negative?

If he's saying a whole lot of doofuses changed the fiscal landscape between now and back when he decided that GA travel was something he still apparently chooses to do, let me share apiece of wisdom with him... "Duh!"

Not all readers of aviation publications are as rabid on the subject as you appear to be. For some, the article may fall into the "profound grasp of the obvious" category, for others it may provide a good recap of how things have evolved and the industry has tanked. If you think JMac doesn't understand that none of the articles in any publication please everybody, you need only to read some of the letters to the editor.

It read to me like he's about to sell off the Barron.
;)

Well, Dick sold the P-210, Tom sold the Cardinal, Karl has discussed selling the Cheyenne. Many others who aren't writers have followed suit and many others are thinking about it. Ask me how I know. :wink2:
 
I understand your position on it, but if basing it on an hourly cost, I can really only take trips in December, as the ones in January are going to very cost prohibitive, since my hours for the year will be unknown, and that $5000 fixed cost for Annual/Insurance/Hangar is going to make any flight cost prohibitive.

If I take the trip in January it will cost me ~$360/hr, but in December will only cost me ~$100/hr. (15hr/mo) - of course this assumes $0 additional maintenance besides the annual inspection. That's why I only worry about immediate trip cost, because I have no idea how many hours I am going to be flying for the year.


Sorry, but I've been in the investment banking and aviation consulting business way too long to accept that stuff.

The true financial analysis for rolling stock will never change. It's total money (all money, including purchase price) in minus total money out (all money, including any improvements, upgrades, engine overhauls, loss on sale) divided by usage expressed in hours, miles or whatever other units you choose. Always has been, always will be. Unfortunately, that number will only be known after the airplane is sold, but it's not difficult to prepare reasonable estimates based on available information from various sources.

That's not to say that you can't rationalize the costs any way that you choose, and it's certainly your right to count and/or ignore/omit any costs that you don't like to include. Just don't ask your CPA or financial advisor to agree, because none will.
 
I think that since aviation can be used for transport in a practical sense (i.e. it's fast, whereas a boat is very slow), people tend to try to justify it more.
I understand why businesses need to justify the expense but, to me, it's a little bit strange to have the need to justify your hobby. That is, as long as you are realistic about how much it costs and have the funds to afford it.
 
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