Is Cirrus the new Bonanza?
- Thread starter spiderweb
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The problem isn't with the aircraft. It with the person in the left seat. Although I do have to say that because of the chute in the aircraft some people might tend to fly in conditions they otherwise wouldn't. That being said I have about 400 hours in them and happen to like treen for what they are. A go fast traveling machine.
That all being said it really needs two more seats and another engine.
That all being said it really needs two more seats and another engine.
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Yes, it is considered the 'technological leader' and has the marketing program targeting an affluent audience, people who want a plane as a travel tool, not as a 'dream making machine'.
These people will take less time learning more than the minimum of what they need to get the service out of the machine they need. Similar to most of us and our computers. The vast majority of us can use our computers to a small fraction of their potential and we learn no further because we have no use for that knowledge; until something goes wrong then we need help.
The same attitude transfers to flying only when it goes wrong your support options are quite limited and by the time you get it you may be dead.
These people will take less time learning more than the minimum of what they need to get the service out of the machine they need. Similar to most of us and our computers. The vast majority of us can use our computers to a small fraction of their potential and we learn no further because we have no use for that knowledge; until something goes wrong then we need help.
The same attitude transfers to flying only when it goes wrong your support options are quite limited and by the time you get it you may be dead.
kgruber
Final Approach
No. Hundreds of the Bonanza accidents involved breakup of the airplane inflight.
I haven't been following closely, but the Cirrus stays together better.
I haven't been following closely, but the Cirrus stays together better.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
I think the point Weilke is trying to make is that this has been beat to death right here...This month!
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49509
denverpilot
Tied Down
The recent AOPA article about both a Cirrus and a Bonanza plowing into a Convective SIGMET was enlightening.
Controller asked the Cirrus guy how his ride through the thunderstorm line was and he incorrectly said he picked his way through with "radar", which was actually delayed XM weather data.
Bonanza A36TC right behind him came out of the bottom of the clouds in pieces scattered over 15 miles.
The Cirrus driver probably has no idea how close he came to death that day. The Bonanza driver had already totaled one aircraft in turbulence, and managed to land it all wrinkled up, prior to his fatal second attempt at stupidity.
The issue always seems to be a sense of superiority over forces of nature far bigger than the aircraft can handle because the avionics are pitched as "fixes" for the "nuisance" of weather.
Like the guy who totaled a Cirrus in AZ flying out of APA after almost running it out of gas, forcing himself to land at an airport where the wind was howling. He survived. Passengers survived. He called a radio show here of the "troubleshooter" type (who's host is also a Cirrus and other types pilot) and complained that no one locally would rent him a Cirrus for his 709 ride.
I was listening to it on lunch break in my truck and just stared at the radio head. Even the show host was obviously floored.
Controller asked the Cirrus guy how his ride through the thunderstorm line was and he incorrectly said he picked his way through with "radar", which was actually delayed XM weather data.
Bonanza A36TC right behind him came out of the bottom of the clouds in pieces scattered over 15 miles.
The Cirrus driver probably has no idea how close he came to death that day. The Bonanza driver had already totaled one aircraft in turbulence, and managed to land it all wrinkled up, prior to his fatal second attempt at stupidity.
The issue always seems to be a sense of superiority over forces of nature far bigger than the aircraft can handle because the avionics are pitched as "fixes" for the "nuisance" of weather.
Like the guy who totaled a Cirrus in AZ flying out of APA after almost running it out of gas, forcing himself to land at an airport where the wind was howling. He survived. Passengers survived. He called a radio show here of the "troubleshooter" type (who's host is also a Cirrus and other types pilot) and complained that no one locally would rent him a Cirrus for his 709 ride.
I was listening to it on lunch break in my truck and just stared at the radio head. Even the show host was obviously floored.
denverpilot
Tied Down
P.S. The 709 guy actually complained that "the airplane didn't tell him" he was running out of gas in a monster westbound headwind. I forgot that part. Unbelievable.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
"my airplane quit with no warning!"
To paraphrase Click & Clack
"like, whaddiya expect, a postcard?"
The plane is fine as long as you respect it for what it is. If you are not a member of COPA (www.cirruspilots.org) then I highly recommend you join and actively participate on the COPA forums. Data says you will be a safer pilot for doing so.
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Snorting his way across the USA
Couldn't have put it better myself.
spiderweb
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Ben
Ben:
Based upon your approach to flying, the Cirrus is a very safe airplane.
In fact, there are a great many design features of the Cirrus which are exceptional (and, perhaps, a few which are not), but it still takes a pilot to kill an airplane and, from time to time, himself and his passengers.
Based upon your approach to flying, the Cirrus is a very safe airplane.
In fact, there are a great many design features of the Cirrus which are exceptional (and, perhaps, a few which are not), but it still takes a pilot to kill an airplane and, from time to time, himself and his passengers.
Ben, the Cirrus is a solid aircraft, just use normal sense operating it and you will be fine.
dennyleeb
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7DeltaBravo
It was a cheap shot.
people take cheap shots all day long on here about cirrus and nothing is ever said, personally i would never fly in a v tail bonanza, but that is just me
spiderweb
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Ben
Agreed. First flight tomorrow!
spiderweb
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Ben
Wilco!
spiderweb
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Ben
I think Spike flies a straight-tail, but I'm not sure.
Here's one more thing there, we don't know that the Cirrus is undamaged and there is no real way to inspect it to make sure. There are no guarantees that just because the structure came out the other side intact that there was not an occurrence that set up some micro fractures in the matrix, and they will grow and eventually be the location of a explosive failure.
IME it's incorrect to say that there are no fatigue issue with composites, they are just different types of fatigue.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Call me crazy but I will fly in.....
a Cirrus
a straight tail Bo
a v tail Bo
or any other airworthy certificated airplane.
I'll also fly in most any airworthy experimental.
Nope, it's a V-Tail. Fine airplane, certified in the utility category. Flown rationally, exceptionally safe.
The later ones (chuckle - "later" being mid-fifties and up) had the larger tailfeathers and they, when the plane was flown way past vNE did have some failures (the increased chord was in front of the spar). The "cuff mod" took care of that, though.
jpower
Cleared for Takeoff
This is a very good point. I had a similar experience with a golf club of all things the other day. There must have been a hairline crack that developed in this driver that was basically invisible, and one shot sounded kinda funny, and I looked at the head and it was completely busted. Cracked all around. Just goes to show that there's plenty dangerous that you can't see...
Back in the early years of CF Indy car chassis they were known to disintegrate sometime in their 6th season. Top line teams would use them 2 seasons and sell them to second tier teams who would keep them another 2-3 seasons. A 5 year old chassis could be had for next to nothing because everybody knew that somewhere in the next season it's probably going to disintegrate.
dennyleeb
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7DeltaBravo
My instructor said just about the same thing before he died in a v tail. We were having the exact same debate about a week before when i told him I would not ride in it. Personally I think instructors get used to flying in junk (most rentals) and it clouds their judgement.
Call me crazy but I will fly in.....
a Cirrus
a straight tail Bo
a v tail Bo
or any other airworthy certificated airplane.
I'll also fly in most any airworthy experimental.
Ditto Jesse.
But...I will fly none of the above into a thunderstorm. It really is simple.
a Cirrus
a straight tail Bo
a v tail Bo
or any other airworthy certificated airplane.
I'll also fly in most any airworthy experimental.
Ditto Jesse.
But...I will fly none of the above into a thunderstorm. It really is simple.
I suspect that had a lot more to do with how the plane was maintained or with the pilot than with the fact it was a Bonanza.
wabower
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Wayne
If I think about it long enough, I may be able to come up with some particular make/model in which somebody hasn't been killed or maimed. If/when I do, I'll probably buy one.
I'm not a Cirrus fan for a number of reasons, including fuel tank design, but have ridden in them and might do so again. At this point, however, I'm not actively seeking opportunities to do so. To each his own.
As it relates to the Cirrus vs. Bonanza discussion, when (if ever) will the next similarly-designed and marketed high-performance single-engine airplane come to market? Who will build it?
I'm not a Cirrus fan for a number of reasons, including fuel tank design, but have ridden in them and might do so again. At this point, however, I'm not actively seeking opportunities to do so. To each his own.
As it relates to the Cirrus vs. Bonanza discussion, when (if ever) will the next similarly-designed and marketed high-performance single-engine airplane come to market? Who will build it?
dell30rb
Final Approach
Did the plane break up?
I really like the old v-tail bonanzas. late 50's. The only thing I don't like is that the panels on almost all of them are shotgun.. and the nav radios are in a funny spot
Ghery
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Ghery Pettit
+1
Amen to that. It is best not to fly anything into a thunderstorm, not just our small aircraft.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
I'm not a fan of the Cirrus for a number of reasons. Mainly, I don't like its design. It's not the worst-designed aircraft in the world. It's also far from the best-designed. Of course, any plane is safe if you don't crash it.
The biggest problem it tends to have is the idiot in the left seat. If you're not an idiot, have a healthy respect for weather, and realize the limitations of your aircraft (which, in a Cirrus, are many), then you should be fine.
The biggest problem it tends to have is the idiot in the left seat. If you're not an idiot, have a healthy respect for weather, and realize the limitations of your aircraft (which, in a Cirrus, are many), then you should be fine.
John Collins
En-Route
Do you have any reference information, NTSB stuff on the accident. I would be curious what the cause of the accident was.
spiderweb
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Ben
What limitations are you talking about?
The big limitation is the same one as on every plane, fuel tank capacity. I never fail to be amazed at how many pilots ignore that limitation.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
It's a fairly lightweight piston single with fixed gear that's rather flimsy. Don't land it on rough strips. Don't get too close to thunderstorms. Realize you don't have true radar, only your NEXRAD (and perhaps a stormscope), and plan accordingly. Realize that icing in your dictionary should have as a definition "Something you stay the **** away from." Realize that 86% power is not a cruise point, and you should be easier on the engine if you want it to last.
You won't find these in any manual. They should be part of your personal minimums.
dennyleeb
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7DeltaBravo
yeah they got the name doctor killer because of "stupid doctors", I can't think of another GA airplane with a nickname that has "killer" in it, at least one that is nearly as known