Is CFI required to be present during cross-country solo flights?

[atbroome]

Sounds like the "helicopter parenting" of the flight training world. Sure, things can go wrong in life/flight training/driving/etc. Isn't this how we are supposed to learn?

My CFIs would usually be at the airport during my X-countires since they were doing local training with other students. I would not have been happy if I was expected to pay for this time.

The attitude my school took was "you are PIC, act like it".

 

[Clip4]

I am calling BS, especially if you have to pay for this guy to sit around.
I send students on x-country all the time and go about my day. Most likely the student has the CFI's cell number. So the CFI can be reached anywhere to assist. Being at the home field really doesn't give that much of an advantage if the student does call. Everyone has a cell phone, even the mechanics. Flight following, really? I can, and have sat on my couch tracking on flightaware. I doubt the flight school has it's own frequency to have students call in on, and if they do is it really in the range of communication for a x-country. So as I have done. LiveATC and you can here the student when they are calling in.

Refuse to pay any CFI fee for him to wait around.

Good for you, on call for free. Some people think be on call for free is unacceptable.

 

[James331]

No, and it doesn’t even make sense

 

[OverTQ]

Everything you mentioned can be done from my house I don't have to be at the airport for it to happen.

Even if it could technically be done from the house, I have a hard time believing any human instructor that's enjoying his well-earned time off is as diligent and attentive as he would be if he was at the airport for the purpose of monitoring the student and being readily available.

I feel there's a clear benefit to an instructor being physically present for the briefing, physically available for the preflight, obligated to answer the phone/radio, and obligated to be sober.

I also trust my students enough that I don't need to babysit them. One of them I signed off for a 4-Hour cross country as his first cross country.

It's not a matter of trust. I never signed off a student that I didn't trust. But they're still new, and there are still things that can happen outside of their control, both in the air and on the ground. They're still better off having someone around to handle any questions and assist with any unfamiliar hiccups that might prevent them from getting off the ground. And still better off having someone who can hop in a plane and come get them if need be. And still better off having someone closely watching to make sure they get home safe.

There's probably a good reason 135 and 121 companies are required to monitor flights, and why a lot of companies that aren't obligated still choose to do so. But now, instead of an experience commercial/ATP pilot or pilots, we're talking about someone who might have 15 hours of flying experience. After seeing it in action myself, it seems irresponsible not to closely monitor student pilots on solo flights. It safer and better training.

I send students on x-country all the time and go about my day. Most likely the student has the CFI's cell number. So the CFI can be reached anywhere to assist. Being at the home field really doesn't give that much of an advantage if the student does call. Everyone has a cell phone, even the mechanics. Flight following, really? I can, and have sat on my couch tracking on flightaware. I doubt the flight school has it's own frequency to have students call in on, and if they do is it really in the range of communication for a x-country. So as I have done. LiveATC and you can here the student when they are calling in.

It's no problem, but your comments indicate that you didn't read my explanations above. Nearly all of your comments were addressed in a previous reply.

Sure, things can go wrong in life/flight training/driving/etc. Isn't this how we are supposed to learn?

Students had all the same opportunity to screw up that they would have otherwise, they're still up there by themselves. But if they did, in a bad way, we were standing by and paying attention.

There's no good reason to go from having an instructor in the airplane to instantly having the instructor barely, or not, paying attention. That might be the traditional way, but that doesn't make it the best way. In my experience, a gradually decreasing safety net is preferable to one that disappears the moment someone does three patterns by themselves.

We're talking about ten hours of monitored solo flight, and then they're a certificated pilot that has the privilege of flying with whatever safety net they chose.

 

[EdFred]

If they have a problem they can call my cell phone just like they can call the FBO. Or does the FBOs phone become the only one that will magically work when a phone call needs to be made by a student?

And what is to monitor? The student leaves the area and he's off on his own. Do I carry a pair of super binoculars or telescope with me so I can watch the student go all the way to his destination?

If I'm really going to monitor the student I should take an airplane and follow him a mile in trail just to make sure the student doesn't do anything wrong.

GMAFB.

 

[Lachlan]

Everything you mentioned can be done from my house I don't have to be at the airport for it to happen. I also trust my students enough that I don't need to babysit them. One of them I signed off for a 4-Hour cross country as his first cross country.

No, no, no... you can ONLY receive text messages from a student pilot while you're on the clock at the airport. What kind of CFI are you?

 

[OverTQ]

If they have a problem they can call my cell phone just like they can call the FBO.

And an instructor who is not at work may not be in a position to take that call, may not be in a position to assist, may not be sober, and may not be paying attention if they have a problem that a doesn't result in a phone call.

It's prudent for a school to ensure none of those lapses happen. When they assign those obligations to an instructor, that instructor deserves to be paid. It's as simple as that.

And you're leaving out a bunch of other advantages to having the instructor on site that I mentioned above. No need to rehash them, though.

And what is to monitor?

Scroll back up, it's all there. As mentioned, their flight planning and decision making process, their departure and arrival times, and so on.

The student leaves the area and he's off on his own. Do I carry a pair of super binoculars or telescope with me so I can watch the student go all the way to his destination?

If I'm really going to monitor the student I should take an airplane and follow him a mile in trail just to make sure the student doesn't do anything wrong.

There's middle ground between being in the airplane with the student, and your sarcastic examples. That's important middle ground, in my opinion.

----

For what it's worth gentlemen, it didn't make sense to me either, at first. After experiencing it as a student, I started to understand the value of having an instructor obligated to be available and physically present. It's a nice segway from dual instruction to having free reign as a certificated private pilot.

 

[EdFred]

And your examples of me disappearing from the world are absurd. My phone stays on and it stays with me. I am the entire Flight School.

 

[BrianNC]

So obviously I don't mean having the CFI in the plane during the solo cross country flight, as it would then not be a solo flight. What I am referring to is this...does the CFI need to be present at the originating airport of the flight, and remain there until you return? I'm getting close to being certified for cross country solo flights, and my CFI said that when I go up on such a flight, he needs to be at the airport waiting for me to return. This seems odd, as what the heck he is going to be able to do to help me if a problem arises? It's not like he can magically teleport into the plane and fix the problem that arose. I can understand having him there before I take off, going over the flight plan, making sure the weather conditions are good, and all that. But once I've taken off, shouldn't he just go home?

Maybe you could have asked him for more detail and cleared it up to begin with?

 

[SkyDog58]

If they have a problem they can call my cell phone just like they can call the FBO. Or does the FBOs phone become the only one that will magically work when a phone call needs to be made by a student?

And what is to monitor? The student leaves the area and he's off on his own. Do I carry a pair of super binoculars or telescope with me so I can watch the student go all the way to his destination?

If I'm really going to monitor the student I should take an airplane and follow him a mile in trail just to make sure the student doesn't do anything wrong.

GMAFB.

Don’t be silly Ed. What’s wrong with you?

We expect you to be sitting in a darkened room at the airport, watching your student’s flight on Flightaware, and listening on Live ATC.

You are lucky we don’t expect you to have your student live stream his flight on YouTube using at minimum three GoPro cameras. One looking forward outside, one looking at the panel, and one looking at the student’s face do you can determine his mental and emotional state.

 

[mscard88]

And your examples of me disappearing from the world are absurd. My phone stays on and it stays with me. I am the entire Flight School.

Yep, flight school I instruct has no one there full time. We are all part timers that come and go, so really no CFI can be expected to sit at the airport. Like I said, I like to be there if I can, and usually can as I'm retired. Otherwise we play text tag and review everything, other than endorsing the solo XC of course.

 

[OverTQ]

And your examples of me disappearing from the world are absurd. My phone stays on and it stays with me. I am the entire Flight School.

I'll go out on a limb and say that at some point since you owned your first cell phone, someone couldn't reach you on it. Forgot it was on silent, dead battery, no coverage, didn't feel like answering, etc.

More importantly though, the original post wasn't about what EdFred, the freelance instructor, does. Pilots, always thinking the conversation is about them.

We're talking about what flight schools might require of their entire instruction staff, staff that isn't EdFred.

I think the drawn out nature of this conversation has made this sound a lot more formal than it really is. It was really very similar to what a flight follower/dispatcher does for commercial operators. There is value in having someone at base who is noting landing/departure times, aware of the ETE, will know pretty quickly if something is awry, and is in a good position to leverage other resources. I've worked at multiple companies that paid someone to do this. A flight school was just one of them. Because it was a flight school, though, that person was an instructor and provided some training functions before and after the flight. It worked well, and was clearly a benefit to the student from both a training and safety standpoint.

It wasn't the expensive either, as students would often share the cost of the instructor and have him dispatch/monitor multiple flights.

Now, the policy that the first student of the day had to pay for an additional 8 hours of the instructor's time (since the instructor had to abstain from alcohol before the flight) was met with a little more controversy.

 

[EdFred]

The original post never mentioned flight school the original post simply mention CFI, you are the one that drove the conversation towards flight schools and babysitting. So look who's trying to make it all about themselves. And you would be wrong I have never had a dead cell phone nor have I been unreachable when I said I would be reachable.

 

[OverTQ]

So look who's trying to make it all about themselves.

That comment of mine was meant to be light-hearted.

Exhibit A:

Pilots, always thinking the conversation is about them.

Let the record show green smiley face was present.

I rest my case.

Really, Ed, it was just a friendly poke. Sorry if it came off differently.

As a point of information though, the conversation about whether it might be school policy started before I got here. I was just commenting to provide a viewpoint informed by experience with that type of policy.

 

[denverpilot]

One of our local schools (and perhaps more) requires CFIs to show up on CHECKRIDE day, because crap can be wrong in IACRA, or the airplane might need something handled while the oral is going on, or whatever. It’s a courtesy.

They have the instructor charge a small amount of ground time on that day, but it’s not for the whole day and left up to the instructor if they want to waive it.

It covers the use of the office by the applicant and DPE for a number of hours and in a sideways way since the school takes a small cut of the instructor’s time ground or flight. The usual drinks and snacks are in the fridge also and those usually get used.

But they don’t really expect instructors to be there for every solo. Most are just out of courtesy to the student. Controlled environment for briefing, debriefing, computer for weather if there’s and questions about what’s on the iPad or lord have mercy, someone who flies without one, etc.

In general it’s just a professionalism thing and lately with the fun of that one student pilot, an airplane key control thing for non-rated pilots. Rated pilots can usually (there’s times... when... no...) have the code for the door and access to the keys and they know how to fill out a sheet for their flight time, etc. 99% of the time someone will be there anyway, but once in a while everyone is “out flying”.

 

[Palmpilot]

I genuinely don't believe that was management's intent. They don't make much money on the ground rate.

It's a pretty responsible risk management policy, in my opinion.

Once the plane is out of sight, what would the CFI be able to do at the airport that would have any effect on the student's risk, that he couldn't do by phone from home?

 

[Z06_Mir]

And an instructor who is not at work may not be in a position to take that call, may not be in a position to assist, may not be sober, and may not be paying attention if they have a problem that a doesn't result in a phone call.

It's prudent for a school to ensure none of those lapses happen. When they assign those obligations to an instructor, that instructor deserves to be paid. It's as simple as that.

For what it's worth gentlemen, it didn't make sense to me either, at first. After experiencing it as a student, I started to understand the value of having an instructor obligated to be available and physically present. It's a nice segway from dual instruction to having free reign as a certificated private pilot.

At some point you have to let the students learn on their own. That is the point of the 10 hours of solo time, to learn before they have passengers. If I have a student out on a solo XC or even on a regular solo I will always answer my phone, regardless of if I'm at the airport or not. I have students that prefer to be out at daybreak, I'm certainly not going to screw up my schedule and my other students schedules because one person wants to take advantage of great early AM weather. If my student gets stranded somewhere and I can't go help I will hire someone who can, send a rescue airplane/instructor or whatever it takes. I would feel downright guilty of I sat around at the airport watching students solo and charging for it. Besides, once they're off the ground it's out of my hands. I can track them on FlightAware or Flightradar24 because we have ADSB in most of the fleet. If you set your expectations of your students they will follow them (checking in, briefing you after they get a brief etc). If you have a student you can't trust with the keys, the door code or solo privileges then they probably shouldn't be solo in the first place.

 

[OverTQ]

Once the plane is out of sight, what would the CFI be able to do at the airport that would have any effect on the student's risk, that he couldn't do by phone from home?

Answered multiple times in the replies above.

At some point you have to let the students learn on their own.

Monitoring the flight doesn't prevent that at all.

I would feel downright guilty of I sat around at the airport watching students solo and charging for it.

There are two pertinent questions:
(1) Does it increase safety, convenience, and training value to have an instructor physically at the base?
(2) Should you charge for your time?

I think (1) is absolutely true. I've explained why I think that quite thoroughly at this point.

As far as (2) is concerned, that's on you. Donating your time is your prerogative. However, no employer should demand their employees donate their time. That includes flight schools.

If you have a student you can't trust with the keys, the door code or solo privileges then they probably shouldn't be solo in the first place.

Briefings, being available to help, and flight following has nothing to do with trust, it has to do with the realities of aviation.

 

[denverpilot]

Thought of another one. I’ve met a couple of very small students who literally couldn’t push the airplanes around. Into or out of the hangar. Ha.

Everybody helps out with someone being around when they depart and arrive. Just common courtesy.

They knew they could tie the airplanes down outside if they had to and nobody was around, but it’s just nicer to help out if someone can be around for something like that.

They’ll probably be flying jets somewhere in a few years and someone will be moving them with a tug.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Monitoring the flight doesn't prevent that at all.
There are two pertinent questions:
(1) Does it increase safety, convenience, and training value to have an instructor physically at the base?
(2) Should you charge for your time?

I think (1) is absolutely true. I've explained why I think that quite thoroughly at this point.

As far as (2) is concerned, that's on you. Donating your time is your prerogative. However, no employer should demand their employees donate their time. That includes flight schools.

Briefings, being available to help, and flight following has nothing to do with trust, it has to do with the realities of aviation.

1. No
2. Yes.

I never said I didn't brief them or answer questions. But sheesh by the time they're on a solo XC they've got 3-5 unsupervised solos already and 2 supervised solos. Having some skin in the game is exactly what students need.. knowing that I'm not always going to be there to hold their hand. It doesn't matter if I'm in another airplane, at my house, or at my desk issues all arise the same and can be dealt with in the same way.. via a phone call.

 

[OverTQ]

Having some skin in the game is exactly what students need.. knowing that I'm not always going to be there to hold their hand.

I agree entirely. Taking ownership and developing a PIC mentality is a crucial element of training, and solo is where it really develops. What I'm describing, though, does not detract from that. The instructors not there to instruct (unless absolutely necessary) but rather to facilitate the solo flight.

Leaving out some of the minor details, the instructors role was to

• to be available before and after, to facilitate a brief/debrief in person, maximizing the training value of the solo flight
  
• to be available to squash issues the student is unable or untrained to handle on his own to prevent losing entire training blocks to something that could have been solved if the instructor was in close proximity
  
• to flight follow--recording the student's position reports, applying the next leg's ETE to determine at what point there is cause for concern, initiating any response plans if necessary
  
• to be the student's point-of-contact at base in case of something abnormal comes up after he leaves ("need one of the mechanics to come out"; "come pick me up"; "going to be late, please notify whoever has the next block"; "a storm is moving in, do you guys want me to put your plane in a hanger, the FBO is going to charge you $50")

So, on most solo flights (where everything is normal) the instructor was little more than a dispatcher/flight follower and didn't intervene or conduct any pilot tasks the student should be doing on his own. The student is the Captain, making all of his own decisions. It would go something like this:

1. Student spends a couple of minutes briefing the instructor on what he intends to do. As long as there are no glaring safety or legal issues that the student missed, the instructor accepts the briefing.
2. Student preflights the airplane on his own, texts the instructor "Leaving KABC for KDEF, 40 gallons", and leaves.
3. Student arrives at destination and shuts down. Texts something like "@ KDEF".
4. Student fuels, starts up, texts "Leaving KDEF for KGHI, 42 gallons", and departs, rinse and repeat.
5. Student returns, conducts a self-briefing. Instructor provides his input and answers questions. File grade sheet. They both go home.

Again, because it's an important distinction, the instructor's goal is not to instruct the student, but rather to facilitate a safe and effective training sortie.

It doesn't matter if I'm in another airplane, at my house, or at my desk issues all arise the same and can be dealt with in the same way.. via a phone call.

Having been a student a school that was very lax, and then moving to a school that required instructors to be available during solo, I have to disagree. I didn't get it at first, but I quickly saw the value of having an instructor on site. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, though.

 

[denverpilot]

The big difference there in when I learned to fly is the texting part. And the FlightAware tracking stuff. Those simply didn’t exist back then.

If you got into trouble on an XC you made sure you had change in your pocket for a pay phone if the FBO was closed.

I think it’s “nice to have” stuff, but not “need to have”. If a student is signed off to go on a solo XC, I don’t think I’ll feel much need for the running update from them. We all managed to survive it without a text per stop to someone.

They knew when we were leaving and within about an hour of when we’d be back.

I was weathered out of the last leg returning on a second or third solo XC late in the game. I dodged t-storms for a while and then landed when I realized I wasn’t going to be able to divert any further around the next little line of them before dark.

Called CFI, he said thanks, he’d watched the forecast go to crap and the weather building, said I made the correct decision and helped find me the phone number of a mutual friend who was happy to let me crash on his couch vs the FBO couch.

CFI asked me to get started early since someone had the plane booked in the morning, he’d handle calling them and delaying their flight about an hour, and to give him a quick call just to touch base on weather, which should be perfect. It was, the phone call was, “weather is good, wheels up in 15 minutes” and launched for home.

No big deal. I was incommunicado for four hours that day and then a couple of phone calls after I called it and diverted and landed. One that I had diverted and another he requested in the morning.

A text every stop... a very different world now. Little bit odd to me. If teaching PIC skills, let ‘em be PIC. Expecting continuous text messages seems weird if everything is going normally.

 

[Brad Smith]

My instructor was there to go over my flight planning and weather and then I was off on my X-country. He was a good instructor and I never even considered whether or not he would hang around the FBO while I was in the air. He asked me how it went the next time we got together for a lesson. He wanted to see my logbook to check the signatures at the FBOs I stopped at along the way. I had a great sense of accomplishment after the X-country flight and it helped my confidence that I was successful. Probably why I still remember it 28 years later.

 

[Palmpilot]

When I did my solo cross-country flights in 1991, my instructor didn't tell me to get signatures at FBOs along the way. I have no idea where he was while I was out. I suspect that he was either at home, or teaching other students.

 

[flyingron]

Hell, I'm not even a fan of the instructors standing there with a handheld while the students are doing their first solo. Solo means solo, not flying by remote proxy.
I dumped my instructor out on the taxiway and went and did my three landings just fine. The only amusing part was the control tower at BJC didn't miss what was going on and just as I was turning crosswind they asked me if it didn't fly a whole lot better without that fat guy in the right seat.

 

[mscard88]

It's time.

 

[Ravioli]

I did my first solo XC twice. One was with an operation where the chief pilot (owner) was there 6 days a week anyway. So it was not big deal and we reviewed "all available information" before the flight and off I went while he taught some other students. When I got back he was in the pattern with another student and he said (over the radio) something to the effect of thanks for bringing my plane back, I'll call you in a bit to debrief.

Second time both pre and post flight were phone calls.

 

[EdFred]

I did my first solo XC twice.

I. Don't. Understand.

 

[Ravioli]

^^^ I was a post-solo student when I moved from TX to CA, and the other guy made me "do it again."

I also had 3 "first" solos, if you can believe that!

Lesson -- Don't move during flight training.

(currently working on my 2nd IFR written. 2 year expiry cost me the first one)

 

[Z06_Mir]

I agree entirely. Taking ownership and developing a PIC mentality is a crucial element of training, and solo is where it really develops. What I'm describing, though, does not detract from that. The instructors not there to instruct (unless absolutely necessary) but rather to facilitate the solo flight.

Leaving out some of the minor details, the instructors role was to

• to be available before and after, to facilitate a brief/debrief in person, maximizing the training value of the solo flight
  
• to be available to squash issues the student is unable or untrained to handle on his own to prevent losing entire training blocks to something that could have been solved if the instructor was in close proximity
  
• to flight follow--recording the student's position reports, applying the next leg's ETE to determine at what point there is cause for concern, initiating any response plans if necessary
  
• to be the student's point-of-contact at base in case of something abnormal comes up after he leaves ("need one of the mechanics to come out"; "come pick me up"; "going to be late, please notify whoever has the next block"; "a storm is moving in, do you guys want me to put your plane in a hanger, the FBO is going to charge you $50")

So, on most solo flights (where everything is normal) the instructor was little more than a dispatcher/flight follower and didn't intervene or conduct any pilot tasks the student should be doing on his own. The student is the Captain, making all of his own decisions. It would go something like this:

1. Student spends a couple of minutes briefing the instructor on what he intends to do. As long as there are no glaring safety or legal issues that the student missed, the instructor accepts the briefing.
2. Student preflights the airplane on his own, texts the instructor "Leaving KABC for KDEF, 40 gallons", and leaves.
3. Student arrives at destination and shuts down. Texts something like "@ KDEF".
4. Student fuels, starts up, texts "Leaving KDEF for KGHI, 42 gallons", and departs, rinse and repeat.
5. Student returns, conducts a self-briefing. Instructor provides his input and answers questions. File grade sheet. They both go home.

Again, because it's an important distinction, the instructor's goal is not to instruct the student, but rather to facilitate a safe and effective training sortie.



Having been a student a school that was very lax, and then moving to a school that required instructors to be available during solo, I have to disagree. I didn't get it at first, but I quickly saw the value of having an instructor on site. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, though.

1. Debrief can be done via phone, or at the next lesson.
2. I don't know what kind of issues I could squash from my desk vs. my home once they're away from base.
3. Position reports? I legitimately don't understand this one... are you recommending CFIs listen to maybe 123.45 and make students transmit?
4. I can make weather decisions, hangar decisions, call maintenance etc from my house, from my office, or from another airplane.

The coddling is not going to result in a strong PIC. Micromanaging students leaves them befuddled when it comes time for their first flight with passengers, or their first cross country to see friends/family. I want to build successful, well rounded students that become great pilots. They aren't going to have me here forever and they need to be prepared for that.

 

[scorpio]

I went over the plan with my CFI the day before. Texted him when I was pulling the plane out the next morning. He texted back to have fun and let me know when I'm back. I sent a picture from an airport along the way and another when I landed at home. I have no idea what benefit he would have been at the airport opposed to doing whatever he was doing.

 

[EdFred]

I went over the plan with my CFI the day before. Texted him when I was pulling the plane out the next morning. He texted back to have fun and let me know when I'm back. I sent a picture from an airport along the way and another when I landed at home. I have no idea what benefit he would have been at the airport opposed to doing whatever he was doing.

He would have been able to get paid. Duh!

 

[bradg33]

You can really see the difference between posters here who learned or teach in Part 61 environments vs. those who came up/teach in 141 "mini-airline" programs (many of whom, in my opinion, take themselves way too seriously). The Part 61 guys think the 141 folks are uptight and overbearing (and, to some extent, money grubbing) and the 141 guys think the Part 61 guys are dangerous cowboys.

 

[MauleSkinner]

It's time.

View attachment 64918

Yup...if you want your hand held, and are willing to pay for it, pick your CFI/flight school appropriately.

If not, pick your CFI/flight school appropriately.

 

[EdFred]

You can really see the difference between posters here who learned or teach in Part 61 environments vs. those who came up/teach in 141 "mini-airline" programs (many of whom, in my opinion, take themselves way too seriously). The Part 61 guys think the 141 folks are uptight and overbearing (and, to some extent, money grubbing) and the 141 guys think the Part 61 guys are dangerous cowboys.

I'm your huckleberry.

 

[OverTQ]

I

If teaching PIC skills, let ‘em be PIC. Expecting continuous text messages seems weird if everything is going normally.

Nothing we did took away from their PIC status, decision making, or skill building. As explained above.

Expecting continuous text messages seems weird if everything is going normally.

It's just a way to keep track of where the airplane is. Charters do it, airlines do it, and a lot of part 91 operations do it. No reason a student can't or shouldn't do it. There's nothing to be gained by nobody knowing where you're at.

1. Debrief can be done via phone, or at the next lesson.
2. I don't know what kind of issues I could squash from my desk vs. my home once they're away from base.
3. Position reports? I legitimately don't understand this one... are you recommending CFIs listen to maybe 123.45 and make students transmit?
4. I can make weather decisions, hangar decisions, call maintenance etc from my house, from my office, or from another airplane.

This was all addressed in the post you replied to and others. If you genuinely want to understand my position and experience with this, I'm happy to expound, but at this point it seems like a waste of my time.

I truly feel it's worth having the conversation, as training is a very important topic and the entire aviation industry benefits from the training sector seeking continuous improvement. It's not a conversation if nobody's listening, though.

The coddling is not going to result in a strong PIC. Micromanaging students leaves them befuddled when it comes time for their first flight with passengers, or their first cross country to see friends/family.

There was no coddling, or micromanaging. As explained.

I have no idea what benefit he would have been at the airport opposed to doing whatever he was doing.

You're in luck. There's two pages of examples.

You can really see the difference between posters here who learned or teach in Part 61 environments vs. those who came up/teach in 141 "mini-airline" programs (many of whom, in my opinion, take themselves way too seriously). The Part 61 guys think the 141 folks are uptight and overbearing (and, to some extent, money grubbing) and the 141 guys think the Part 61 guys are dangerous cowboys.

You're creating a false dichotomy. If there's a better better way to train, there's a better way to train. There's no reason you can't leverage the good parts from any common instructional philosophy. There's no need to form teams, more less pick one. But, for some reason, everyone wants to think that the way they trained was the best way, because hey, it worked for me! Meanwhile they generalize all others into an inferior subgroup.

I don't play that game. You won't find me defending either your 61 stereotype or your 141 stereotype in whole.

 

[Palmpilot]

The only amusing part was the control tower at BJC didn't miss what was going on and just as I was turning crosswind they asked me if it didn't fly a whole lot better without that fat guy in the right seat.

I enjoyed the peace and quiet.

 

[scorpio]

OVERTq - I've read all the posts. I don't find your examples provide any benefit to the solo pilot. I don't, and apparently most here, don't see the value of having the CFI being at the airport. If the CFI isn't in close enough proximity to manipulate the controls it makes no difference where they physically are. None of your examples are anything that can't be done remotely with a call or text.

 

[bradg33]

You're creating a false dichotomy. If there's a better better way to train, there's a better way to train. There's no reason you can't leverage the good parts from any common instructional philosophy. There's no need to form teams, more less pick one. But, for some reason, everyone wants to think that the way they trained was the best way, because hey, it worked for me! Meanwhile they generalize all others into an inferior subgroup.

I don't play that game. You won't find me defending either your 61 stereotype or your 141 stereotype in whole.

I agree that if there's a "better" way to train, everyone should embrace it. I don't think the things being discussed here, namely a CFI sitting at the airport while a student is on a solo cross-country, represent a "better" way to train, just a "different" way.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I agree that if there's a "better" way to train, everyone should embrace it. I don't think the things being discussed here, namely a CFI sitting at the airport while a student is on a solo cross-country, represent a "better" way to train, just a "different" way.

...and no "training" is going on, so it's not even a "different" way.