Is AOPA doing a good job?

[airdale]

They will be along once they figure out how they can generate revenue from the answer.

I think you're being a little unfair. My take is that they are well-meaning people who are a product of their environment. When the corporate culture puts green glasses on everyone, then everything looks green.

Example: The PR woman (sorry, forgot her name) posted a complete fairy story here regarding why the cash hoard was needed. Obviously she is clueless about financial management or she would have understood that her bosses were lying to her.

Example: I had a private email exchange with Haines a couple of years ago about The Jet. He was quite impassioned about the value of being able to take half his worker bees in The Jet to visit a vendor. Fact of the matter is that no competently managed for-profit would do such a thing. And, probably, it would have been less expensive and more effective to buy them cheapjet commercial tickets and send them individually as needed to deal with specific needs or issues. He's just not conditioned to think that way. And why should he be? His bosses aren't.

Probably it is this post that has put them off:

As soon as that Haines guy pipes in or the AOPA girl post, this will go for another 100 post.......

I'll put some burgers on the grill!

 

[NoHeat]

AOPA chapters? What would they do? EAA has chapters because the whole purpose of the organization is to mentor amateur builders, and much of that has to be done hands-on and in-person.

The main purpose of EAA as an organization is now to generate money from AirVenture, it seems to me.

Does anyone believe that the chapters for amateur builders are still its "whole purpose?"

 

[RotorAndWing]

Probably it is this post that has put them off:

So maybe I should have offered hot dogs or grilled fish?

 

[airdale]

So maybe I should have offered hot dogs or grilled fish?

Oh, I wasn't particularly criticizing the post, but I think they could have taken its tone as a little off-putting. Maybe not.

 

[FloridaPilot]

I am quite surprised one of AOPA's staff hasn't chimed in. Did they all get scared off already?

Maybe they just don't care at this point to take your money or not.
It would be pretty cool to come up with an organization that works with PP only.

 

[docmirror]

The main purpose of EAA as an organization is now to generate money from AirVenture, it seems to me.

Does anyone believe that the chapters for amateur builders are still its "whole purpose?"

This is my thinking as well. Since they bent over and lubed up for the FAA this year, you know that the whole thing revolves around Airventure. They signed that half mil check so fast I thought they were gonna get writers cramp. I don't know what the vendor tents cost, but it's gotta be a pile of money. All those pilots, and other people walking around with spending money. Yeah - let's go drive a rivet, or mix up some resin -- sure.

 

[MichiPilot]

This is my thinking as well. Since they bent over and lubed up for the FAA this year, you know that the whole thing revolves around Airventure. They signed that half mil check so fast I thought they were gonna get writers cramp. I don't know what the vendor tents cost, but it's gotta be a pile of money. All those pilots, and other people walking around with spending money. Yeah - let's go drive a rivet, or mix up some resin -- sure.

just curious, after the flaming earlier, are you going to respond to the list of good things that have been accomplished?

 

[petrolero]

They will be along once they figure out how they can generate revenue from the answer. If no money for them is involved, don't expect much.

What's wrong with revenue? Do you work for free?

If so, my lawn needs mowing.

 

[ClimbnSink]

just curious, after the flaming earlier, are you going to respond to the list of good things that have been accomplished?

Someone did that on the last 'AOPA value thread' it wasn't pretty for AOPA.

 

[airdale]

just curious, after the flaming earlier, are you going to respond to the list of good things that have been accomplished?

Just curious, is there such a list produced by someone other than AOPA? Is there even one news article? I tend to believe that AOPA does at least some good things, but I have absolutely no independent information to support that belief.

What's wrong with revenue?

The issue is not that AOPA should work for free. It is that AOPA unnecessarily hoards cash, unnecessarily wastes money, unnecessarily raises dues, and unnecessarily embraces crackpot revenue enhancement schemes. AOPA could completely stop collecting dues for two or three years and still be a wealthy organization relative to its peers.

 

[MichiPilot]

Just curious, is there such a list produced by someone other than AOPA? Is there even one news article? I tend to believe that AOPA does at least some good things, but I have absolutely no independent information to support that belief.
.

Who would produce such a list?

 

[MichiPilot]

Someone did that on the last 'AOPA value thread' it wasn't pretty for AOPA.

I'm talking about a list of things I posted in the first page of the thread. Everyone would rather complain than read and learn something.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I'm talking about a list of things I posted in the first page of the thread. Everyone would rather complain than read and learn something.

Yes that list, AOPAs bragging list was thoroughly thrashed in the past. No one can bother to do it again. Either you are a new pilot, a daft pilot, or you know AOPA is mostly nonsense.

 

[MichiPilot]

Yes that list, AOPAs bragging list was thoroughly thrashed in the past. No one can bother to do it again. Either you are a new pilot, a daft pilot, or you know AOPA is mostly nonsense.

where was it trashed? Did i miss it?

 

[airdale]

Who would produce such a list?

Probably no one would produce a list. But a news article or three would be nice.

The big boys get written up: http://thehill.com/business-lobbying/business-lobbying/188607-top-lobbyists-2013

but once in a while the little guys do too: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.co...-the-greater-good/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

More realistically for AOPA, an analysis by someone closer to home like Flying magazine, Avweb, or even Aviation Consumer would be nice to see.

Or as I suggested earlier, AOPA could commission one of the big accounting/consulting firms to do an independent assessment of its effectiveness. Such a study would run at least mid-six figures but compared to AOPA's budget and its cash hoard that is a pittance. Such a study might even save money by producing suggestions to sharpen the effort.

As I said, my hunch is that they have at least some effectiveness but I have no independent facts to support that notion.

Edit: I just read farther down and found AOPA listed in The Hill's article. Nice to see even without a specific evaluation as some have.

 

[MichiPilot]

Probably no one would produce a list. But a news article or three would be nice.

The big boys get written up: http://thehill.com/business-lobbying/business-lobbying/188607-top-lobbyists-2013

but once in a while the little guys do too: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.co...-the-greater-good/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

More realistically for AOPA, an analysis by someone closer to home like Flying magazine, Avweb, or even Aviation Consumer would be nice to see.

Or as I suggested earlier, AOPA could commission one of the big accounting/consulting firms to do an independent assessment of its effectiveness. Such a study would run at least mid-six figures but compared to AOPA's budget and its cash hoard that is a pittance. Such a study might even save money by producing suggestions to sharpen the effort.

As I said, my hunch is that they have at least some effectiveness but I have no independent facts to support that notion.

Edit: I just read farther down and found AOPA listed in The Hill's article. Nice to see even without a specific evaluation as some have.

Yeah I agree...I guess my point is what is "effectiveness"? Because it is something different to every pilot and every aircraft owner it would be difficult to have everyone even agree with the results.

I just don't get the mind set of a few here that would rather be negative and ill-informed but still feel they are able to diagnose the problem of everyone and everything, including aopa.

But, I'd still like docmirrors thoughts on my list. Quick to turn negative but with a real question he is nowhere to be found.

 

[ClimbnSink]

AOPA killed a drivers license medical proposal 'because it didn't go far enough.' AOPA is 100% pro ADS-B which is a disaster for at least the bottom 25% of GA. On those two things alone no one should ever be a member.

Yeah I agree...I guess my point is what is "effectiveness"? Because it is something different to every pilot and every aircraft owner it would be difficult to have everyone even agree with the results.

I just don't get the mind set of a few here that would rather be negative and ill-informed but still feel they are able to diagnose the problem of everyone and everything, including aopa.

But, I'd still like docmirrors thoughts on my list. Quick to turn negative but with a real question he is nowhere to be found.

 

[MichiPilot]

AOPA killed a drivers license medical proposal 'because it didn't go far enough.' AOPA is 100% pro ADS-B which is a disaster for at least the bottom 25% of GA. On those two things alone no one should ever be a member.

Do you have a link to anything on killing a DL medical?

 

[docmirror]

I just don't get the mind set of a few here that would rather be negative and ill-informed but still feel they are able to diagnose the problem of everyone and everything, including aopa.

But, I'd still like docmirrors thoughts on my list. Quick to turn negative but with a real question he is nowhere to be found.

Well, I think you're going to go to bed disappointed tonight. My first membership with AOPA goes back to the late 70s, and as recent as 2010. So not sure if that's defined as 'ill-informed', but it is what it is.

Furthermore, this is op-ed, and if you go back to the OPs title, he is looking specifically for op-ed. I don't mind if others think AOPA is doing a bang-up job. After all, they are paying the freight so it's not like the current members are pro-AOPA biased or anything.

I'm here, and I will do your homework for you. My rates are $475/hour, min 3 hours. Let me know when you have a check or PO for me, and I'll just get right on that investigation. If you do a few searches right here on this board you can get a pretty good list of where AOPA went pear-shaped, cuz I seriously doubt you are gonna pony up a check for me to work on this.

I can tell that you've never gone through peer-review for, well - anything. If you think I'm critical, wait until your first draft of a doctoral thesis comes back with flames coming off the page. The market speaks to success, and from a financial perspective, AOPA is doing a bang up job. If that job is raising money for AOPAs 'crats and management staff.

Finally, it's not up to me, or anyone else to prove that AOPA is NOT doing a good job(it's what you asked me to do), it's for the rest of you to prove AOPA IS doing a good job. It's hard to prove a negative. :wink2:

 

[MichiPilot]

Well, I think you're going to go to bed disappointed tonight. My first membership with AOPA goes back to the late 70s, and as recent as 2010. So not sure if that's defined as 'ill-informed', but it is what it is.

Furthermore, this is op-ed, and if you go back to the OPs title, he is looking specifically for op-ed. I don't mind if others think AOPA is doing a bang-up job. After all, they are paying the freight so it's not like the current members are pro-AOPA biased or anything.

I'm here, and I will do your homework for you. My rates are $475/hour, min 3 hours. Let me know when you have a check or PO for me, and I'll just get right on that investigation. If you do a few searches right here on this board you can get a pretty good list of where AOPA went pear-shaped, cuz I seriously doubt you are gonna pony up a check for me to work on this.

I can tell that you've never gone through peer-review for, well - anything. If you think I'm critical, wait until your first draft of a doctoral thesis comes back with flames coming off the page. The market speaks to success, and from a financial perspective, AOPA is doing a bang up job. If that job is raising money for AOPAs 'crats and management staff.

Finally, it's not up to me, or anyone else to prove that AOPA is NOT doing a good job(it's what you asked me to do), it's for the rest of you to prove AOPA IS doing a good job. It's hard to prove a negative. :wink2:

Interesting blather.

 

[airdale]

Yeah I agree...I guess my point is what is "effectiveness"? Because it is something different to every pilot and every aircraft owner it would be difficult to have everyone even agree with the results.

Well, there are two pieces: Are they doing the right thing? Are they doing the thing right?

As ClimbnSink illustrates, there can be lots of debate about what is the right thing to do. (I happen to disagree with him on ADS-B, BTW.)

I think "effectiveness" is doing the thing right; a lobbyist successfully selling and educating a point of view. Are there multiple congresscritters or senior staffers who have been quoted as praising AOPA's people for increasing their understanding of a some proposed legislation? Are there multiple city councils or mayors who have been quoted as thanking AOPA for its participation and for helping them understand a thorny issue? That type of thing.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Do you have a link to anything on killing a DL medical?

We ran him off, but one of the countries top AMEs used to post here and was involved or at least knew the inside goings on. I'm sure a search here would find something, of course AOPA isn't going to brag about it on their page. You can search for it or hire Doc to find it for you.

 

[MichiPilot]

We ran him off, but one of the countries top AMEs used to post here and was involved or at least knew the inside goings on. I'm sure a search here would find something, of course AOPA isn't going to brag about it on their page. You can search for it or hire Doc to find it for you.

Lol Dr Bruce?

 

[MichiPilot]

Well, there are two pieces: Are they doing the right thing? Are they doing the thing right?

As ClimbnSink illustrates, there can be lots of debate about what is the right thing to do. (I happen to disagree with him on ADS-B, BTW.)

I think "effectiveness" is doing the thing right; a lobbyist successfully selling and educating a point of view. Are there multiple congresscritters or senior staffers who have been quoted as praising AOPA's people for increasing their understanding of a some proposed legislation? Are there multiple city councils or mayors who have been quoted as thanking AOPA for its participation and for helping them understand a thorny issue? That type of thing.

I like your definition of effectiveness and i wholeheartedly agree.

To your point on politicos thanking AOPA is that even a reasonable thing to request. You don't usually see congressman praise any organization for anything.

 

[ClimbnSink]

The Harekrishnas give out flowers for the same reason AOPA gives out ball caps it works brilliantly at subduing reason and raising money. Enjoy your hat.

 

[docmirror]

I don't care about praise myself. It's pretty hollow. I care about results. The NRA delivers. AOPA - not so much.

CNN search for NRA: http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/09/us/nra-gun-research/index.html

CNN search for AOPA: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/18/pilots.id.photos/index.html?iref=allsearch

"While we have no real objection to adding the required information to the pilot's certificate, we do want to ensure that the final rule is as minimally burdensome for pilots as possible," AOPA spokesman Chris Dancy said in October.

 

[MichiPilot]

I don't care about praise myself. It's pretty hollow. I care about results. The NRA delivers. AOPA - not so much.

CNN search for NRA: http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/09/us/nra-gun-research/index.html

CNN search for AOPA: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/18/pilots.id.photos/index.html?iref=allsearch

"While we have no real objection to adding the required information to the pilot's certificate, we do want to ensure that the final rule is as minimally burdensome for pilots as possible," AOPA spokesman Chris Dancy said in October.

Are we really comparing an organization with 300 million possible members with one of at the absolute most 600,000 or so? And using CNN as the arbiter of fact?

 

[CTLSi]

1. You have the freedom to fly in the nations airspace.

Without AOPA you would be paying to use ATC services. Plus you would be required by law to use ATC services.

ATC are Fed civil servants. If the started to charge GA pilots to use the airspace then we would replace them with private sector ATC. We should do that anyway.

 

[docmirror]

Are we really comparing an organization with 300 million possible members with one of at the absolute most 600,000 or so? And using CNN as the arbiter of fact?

I don't know, are we? I don't think it's fair to limit AOPAs possible membership. Last I checked, there was no requirement anywhere to be a pilot, student pilot, plane owner, etc. I think I could register my dog at AOPA, as long as the dogs check cleared the bank. NRA possible members = AOPA possible members.

What's wrong with CNN? If any news outlet would be critical of NRA, I would think CNN would top the list. Furthermore, how about not focusing on what the media is, but focus on the message.

NRA: No more laws, regulations, etc. Backed up by money in HR/senate pockets.

AOPA: Nah - we don't mind, go ahead and regulate - but lube us up first before you stick it in.

 

[MichiPilot]

NRA possible members = AOPA possible members.

People going around joining (or complaining on the internet about) organizations they have no interest in?

600k pilots vs 300 million gun owners?

 

[docmirror]

People going around joining (or complaining on the internet about) organizations they have no interest in?

600k pilots vs 300 million gun owners?

buh-bye.

 

[MichiPilot]

buh-bye.

 

[RotorAndWing]

ATC are Fed civil servants. If the started to charge GA pilots to use the airspace then we would replace them with private sector ATC. We should do that anyway.

Be careful what you wish for. Have you ever seen a bill from a country with privatized ATC?