Is America's aviation/exploration spirit dying ?

zaitcev said:
How does any of this have anything with American spirit of exploration?
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Because if air show's go away, then some little kid who may be the greatest astronaut the world has ever seen won't be inspired maybe?

:dunno:
 
txflyer said:
Orbital launch would seem to be the way to go for deeper space travel.

Launch from a space station in space. It would save tons of fuel since you do not have to overcome earth's gravity.
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Yes, but: Everything that leaves from the station has to get up there to start with. Unless you mine low-gravity mineral sources and set up a smelter (zero G smelter? Brrrr....), forge, and several types of manufactory in orbit, you haven't gained much. It does give you an on-orbit storage place for all the things sent up from Earth.

txflyer said:
What happened to ion drive? It was all the rage for about ten seconds. You could burn up to speed on rocket fuel, then switch to ion propulsion to continue on.
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Ion drive have great Specific Impulse but lousy thrust. The big advantage is that their major need is electrical power, and all you need for that is solar arrays. You can turn it on and keep it running for months, building up speed verrrrry slowly. But you do build speed.

Like Jim said, a number of satellites use them. For instance, a satellite in Geosynchronous orbit has to expend (IIRC) about 150 fps in delta-v each year to control its north-south drift. You can either use a conventional thruster and squirt out a few pounds of propellant every couple of weeks, or just turn on the Ion thruster and let it burn.

Similar, a GEO satellite will drift to the east or west, depending upon its location relative to stable and unstable points. You can use Ion thrusters for this as well.

Some of the launch concepts are getting pretty wild, too. They'll boost the satellite so that its apogee is halfway to the moon, then run the ion thruster continuously to ease into to their final orbit.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
Some of the launch concepts are getting pretty wild, too. They'll boost the satellite so that its apogee is halfway to the moon, then run the ion thruster continuously to ease into to their final orbit.
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Dish rescued their bad launch similarly to that way a few years back. They chose to expend propellant and do it faster at the loss if years of station-keeping, but kept their launch from being a disaster financially. I believe Lloyd's of London still paid out a hefty pro-rata launch insurance payment against the lift company though. Ergen likes his cash.
 
wanttaja said:
Yes, but: Everything that leaves from the station has to get up there to start with. Unless you mine low-gravity mineral sources and set up a smelter (zero G smelter? Brrrr....), forge, and several types of manufactory in orbit, you haven't gained much. It does give you an on-orbit storage place for all the things sent up from Earth.
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The main reason for boosting to orbit is that anything that will be able to carry humanity out into space will have to be very large making boosting small segments into orbit for assembly the only practical way to go about it.
 
I'm waiting for the engineers to figure out the tether for a space elevator.
 
ClimbnSink said:
You want America in space? Defund NASA(they will be in the way otherwise) make money spent on space exploration tax free. We'll get that theme park on the moon in no time.
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Hey, that would be a "loophole" to some on the left who don't like space exploration. :rolleyes:
 
Henning said:
The main reason for boosting to orbit is that anything that will be able to carry humanity out into space will have to be very large making boosting small segments into orbit for assembly the only practical way to go about it.
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Certainly, just like we didn't launch the entire Space Station on one ride.

As you say, it's a practicality issue. Without space factories, one MUST every nut and washer up from Earth. There's no cost savings involved in building in orbit, as long as every pound of parts takes 40 pounds of fuel to put them in orbit....

There's a joke about "Lowes Earth Orbit" here, somewhere....

Ron Wanttaja
 
Rail gun technology may hold some promise of launching into earth orbit. But I don't know if that would be cheaper or work. Just throwing it out there.
 
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Henning said:
Well, if we could quit waging war on everyone and get industry to tote the load rather than extract every dollar from the economy and send them to China, we could once again do great things. As it stands, we have to let China do great things.
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The whole reason the space program was initiated was because of war with other countries, not because we were rich and curious. It was a battle for high ground against the Soviet Union. Once we asserted our dominance in space and saw that no other country could compete, we stopped going.

Here it is explained more accurately and eloquently by the one and only Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldyoHaktv5U
 
So the thread died. Does that mean we've lost our explorative spirit? :)
 
denverpilot said:
So the thread died. Does that mean we've lost our explorative spirit? :)
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I think we have determined that we actually never had one, only a desire to be the strongest warrior. It seems that humans have never evolved beyond the need to do battle and prove superiority, not to mention acquire wealth. We appear to be the modern equivalent of the Roman Empire in Nero's time, and the Chinese ar the barbarians at the door. The only question which remains is, "When will we fall into the new Dark Ages?"
 
wanttaja said:
Yes, but: Everything that leaves from the station has to get up there to start with. Unless you mine low-gravity mineral sources and set up a smelter (zero G smelter? Brrrr....), forge, and several types of manufactory in orbit, you haven't gained much. It does give you an on-orbit storage place for all the things sent up from Earth.
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Not quite. Propellants easily account for 90% of upmass in anything that goes beyond Earth orbit. Merely setting up a gas station with off-Earth propellants would be a great benefit. Not so much for comasts, but for any cislunar kind of business.
 
It's cold and blustery today, so my aviation spirit is dead at home by the heater. :wink2:
 
Henning said:
I think we have determined that we actually never had one, only a desire to be the strongest warrior. It seems that humans have never evolved beyond the need to do battle and prove superiority, not to mention acquire wealth. We appear to be the modern equivalent of the Roman Empire in Nero's time, and the Chinese ar the barbarians at the door. The only question which remains is, "When will we fall into the new Dark Ages?"
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Yup, it was all about winning. Here's Kennedy's memo to Johnson.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/Apollomon/apollo1.pdf

You need to scroll down to see the actual memo.
 
Henning said:
The only question which remains is, "When will we fall into the new Dark Ages?"
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Everyone say that fall of Rome was this horrible thing, but the average caloric intake of Europeans went UP. Rome was way overrated, barbaric, technology averse empire. It wasn't much fun living in so-called "Dark Ages", but better than Rome, and there was a way forward as it turns out.
 
So, what exactly are we going to explore with aviation? The only unexplored places left on the surface of the earth are in deep ocean water. Going to another planet is most likely a multitrillion dollar investment, don't know about you, but I don't have that lying around.

I suppose someone could do a flight somewhere using a smaller aircraft than would usually be used, but at some point that's just using an inadequate tool for a job that would easily be done with the correct one, and there's not much point in that..
 
zaitcev said:
Everyone say that fall of Rome was this horrible thing, but the average caloric intake of Europeans went UP. Rome was way overrated, barbaric, technology averse empire. It wasn't much fun living in so-called "Dark Ages", but better than Rome, and there was a way forward as it turns out.
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Oh, I agree completely, the society we have currently is holding back the advancement of humanity. We are a society of the many for the advancement of the few at the cost of the many. Throw a few trinkets at the many and 'citizenship' and they give their lives willingly for the illusion of possible advancement.
 
txflyer said:
We have no manned space program to speak of, and now I read in AOPA's recent magazine that airshow's could be in trouble.

2013 was the worst year for airshow's in recent history because of the sequester, and the kicker that the FAA wants to charge big dollars for ATC services.

The space program and Thunderbird's were huge influences on me as a boy. I idolized the astronauts, and marveled at the Thunderbirds. I watched them and told myself that's what I want to do someday. Now, kids want to be like Kim and Kanye. It's very sad the role models we serve up nowadays. :(
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I hope the US revives the space program, with another manned mission to the moon or even farther into space. Those Apollo trips were more than just a demonstrator of US technology, they also had a huge impact on the average citizen, a sort of morale booster, something badly needed now to revive the spirits. It might even indirectly jolt the economy back to life.
 
Keith103 said:
I hope the US revives the space program, with another manned mission to the moon or even farther into space. Those Apollo trips were more than just a demonstrator of US technology, they also had a huge impact on the average citizen, a sort of morale booster, something badly needed now to revive the spirits. It might even indirectly jolt the economy back to life.
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Yes let us build retarded monuments to ourselves. Nothing shows a nation is done better then the building or rebuilding of monuments to alleged glory. Why don't we just colorize the Apollo footage and call it good? Or pitch a plan to Redbull they have bigger space program then all but three or four countries.:lol:
 
txflyer said:
We were supposed to have flying cars by now, and 2001 space odyssey space stations orbiting with passenger service. Trans-continental sub-space commercial flight and mono-rails connecting everything.

What happened to our childhood visions of the future?
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Its been replaced by urban domestication. Soon we will all live in 250 square foot 'micro units', take public mass transit everywhere and pay taxes like a frenchman!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...-get-first-micro-unit-apartment-building.html
 
Keith103 said:
Those Apollo trips were more than just a demonstrator of US technology, they also had a huge impact on the average citizen, a sort of morale booster, something badly needed now to revive the spirits. It might even indirectly jolt the economy back to life.
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Apollo made us pee away 50 critical years that could've been used for a real space development. As Jerry Pournelle once said, "(we) needed to get Russians and we got them good". That was the only positive outcome of that huge expenditure. It really was a pyrrific victory.

The most important task in space that humanity is facing is how to make space to make money. As long as space settlement is a money sink, humanity is not going to settle space, it's as simple as that. And all the stuff about spirit and the like only cements our doom when inevitable asteroid comes to visit.
 
txflyer said:
We were supposed to have flying cars by now, and 2001 space odyssey space stations orbiting with passenger service. Trans-continental sub-space commercial flight and mono-rails connecting everything.

What happened to our childhood visions of the future?
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The price of building the "Great Society."
 
I disagree Apollo was a waste of time and money. It proved to the world that American ingenuity was second to none, and instilled a huge sense of national pride in everyone.

It felt like for a brief moment there was nothing we couldn't accomplish. All your boyhood dreams were reality. Next stop, Mars.

I can still remember exactly where I was when Armstrong stepped off the LEM. Like a time capsule in my mind.
 
txflyer said:
I disagree Apollo was a waste of time and money. It proved to the world that American ingenuity was second to none, and instilled a huge sense of national pride in everyone.

It felt like for a brief moment there was nothing we couldn't accomplish. All your boyhood dreams were reality. Next stop, Mars.

I can still remember exactly where I was when Armstrong stepped off the LEM. Like a time capsule in my mind.
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too bad my generation will never have anything like that.
 
DavidWhite said:
too bad my generation will never have anything like that.
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Never know. You get that time capsule in the mind effect whenever someone shoots a president. Costs the country a whole lot less then a space program. On the other hand if it happened again in murca the legislative costs would be astronomical. Missed the moon landing but remember when the Gipper got it.
 
DavidWhite said:
too bad my generation will never have anything like that.
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you've witnessed the conversion from analog phones to a world linked by computer networks. Also the end of the cold war and the fall of communism. IOW your generation has seen far more significant events than someone driving an electric dune buggy on the moon.
 
JHW said:
you've witnessed the conversion from analog phones to a world linked by computer networks. Also the end of the cold war and the fall of communism. IOW your generation has seen far more significant events than someone driving an electric dune buggy on the moon.
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The jury is still out on whether having a computer in your pocket did anything good for the human race.

Lots of good obviously, but lately with the more public admission that governments are simply using the devices to track/spy/whatever on millions of people, maybe they're just electronic leashes.

Does your "phone" do things never intended or possible than the ones hanging on the walls with wires did?

Yeah. Both really good and really bad things.

Sadly, technology developed for Apollo and those technology's cousins also begat the thing in your pocket.

(If you like tech, reading up on the tech advancements made during Apollo in making RF devices more portable to shove them in a space suit is truly amazing for the time. That was the beginning of all sorts of tech we use today and virtually take for granted.)

The only constants are change and people wanting to control other people...
 
We've come a long way in just a few short decades. I grew up on a dirt road, with a party line phone (that was fun), and two and a half channels on a b/w TV you had to get up and walk over to when you wanted to change channels.

Anyone remember turning the rabbit ears on the TV until the picture was good? We use to laugh and tell whoever was doing it "o.k. that's good, stand there and hold it!" :rofl:
 
txflyer said:
Anyone remember turning the rabbit ears on the TV until the picture was good?
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I still do that to the TV at my alternate residence because I'm not going to pay for cable at a place I only visit every couple months.
 
Everskyward said:
I still do that to the TV at my alternate residence because I'm not going to pay for cable at a place I only visit every couple months.
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I hear that. Our cable bill just keeps going up while the programming keeps getting sorrier and sorrier. I'm always cussing to flygirl .." a million channels and nothing to watch."

On our old farmstead, I just watch DVD's. Which is rare, because at the end of the day on the farm, you eat, and go to bed cuz you're tired.

I miss the family dynamic's we had on the farm that tech and the nuclear lifestyle has replaced to a degree. Everyone has scattered like quail all across the country with jobs etc ....
 
denverpilot said:
The jury is still out on whether having a computer in your pocket did anything good for the human race.
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cell phones are a minor part of it. I was commenting on the magnitude of the change in how we live and it has been massive.

Yes i still have rabbit ears on my TV because I'm too cheap for cable, but I am still watching the kansas city - indy wild card game on that TV from my home 10K miles away from indianapolis.
 
JHW said:
cell phones are a minor part of it. I was commenting on the magnitude of the change in how we live and it has been massive.

Yes i still have rabbit ears on my TV because I'm too cheap for cable, but I am still watching the kansas city - indy wild card game on that TV from my home 10K miles away from indianapolis.
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Yeah, but people around the world were watching the 1936 Olympics using the same technology.
 
JHW said:
not in real-time while giving my dad grief about it at his home in KC
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Not because it wasn't possible, but rather because they wanted to make it convenient to watch. The telephone ability existed as well.
 
txflyer said:
We've come a long way in just a few short decades. I grew up on a dirt road, with a party line phone (that was fun), and two and a half channels on a b/w TV you had to get up and walk over to when you wanted to change channels.



Anyone remember turning the rabbit ears on the TV until the picture was good? We use to laugh and tell whoever was doing it "o.k. that's good, stand there and hold it!" :rofl:
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Hmm. I moved back to the dirt road and the rabbit ears pull in about 15 digital stations. The remote controls still work. ;)

I've considered putting a copper phone line back in because that stuff always works and cell coverage out here is bad enough that I have both a Verizon Home Phone Connect stashed in the highest cellular signal strength room upstairs, feeding the house cordless phone system... And a Verizon Cellular Extender to keep the cell phones happy on the little microcell. Internet is via land-base fixed wireless (Motorola Canopy). We have to tweak the rabbit ears once in a while on the basement TV or go upstairs.

If the copper were reconnected, (We are stuck in the last...) CenturyLink can only do 1.5Mb/s down, 768 Kb/a up on the ancient DSL DSLAM down the road. They feed the box and a SLIC with fiber but haven't upgraded the DSLAM.

The fixed wireless company is 5Mb/s / 1Mb/s. CenturyLink is an "also ran" now out here. They could blow away the fixed wireless company.
 
denverpilot said:
Hmm. I moved back to the dirt road and the rabbit ears pull in about 15 digital stations. The remote controls still work. ;)

I've considered putting a copper phone line back in because that stuff always works and cell coverage out here is bad enough that I have both a Verizon Home Phone Connect stashed in the highest cellular signal strength room upstairs, feeding the house cordless phone system... And a Verizon Cellular Extender to keep the cell phones happy on the little microcell. Internet is via land-base fixed wireless (Motorola Canopy). We have to tweak the rabbit ears once in a while on the basement TV or go upstairs.

If the copper were reconnected, (We are stuck in the last...) CenturyLink can only do 1.5Mb/s down, 768 Kb/a up on the ancient DSL DSLAM down the road. They feed the box and a SLIC with fiber but haven't upgraded the DSLAM.

The fixed wireless company is 5Mb/s / 1Mb/s. CenturyLink is an "also ran" now out here. They could blow away the fixed wireless company.
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If it were not for this fine piece of tail I'm married to who wants a mansion next to everything under the sun, I'd be back out on the farm in the 1950's house I grew up in so fast it would make your head spin.

I don't like civilization.

I'd have everything. Even an airstrip. It's just too far out for her. :sad:
 
This place is just close enough to "civilization" that we can participate in the better parts of it and ignore the rest. ;)

My little city girl seems to like her blingy pickup truck and seeing stars at night. Thank God her parents took her camping a lot as a kid. If you don't like nature and some solitary activity in it, it's not for you.

Realtor told a serious story about a guy from NY who moved here to Denver Metro for work and chose a house out in our area. All was well for him and his wife until mother in law visited and freaked out completely that her daughter was living in "The middle of nowhere!" It's only 35 minutes out of town and 25 to "civilization". Apparently mother in law spent a week and wanted to go shopping every day in town and saw a rattlesnake and lost her mind about mid-week. Guy called the realtor and put the house on the market only a few months after moving in. Moved into the suburbs.
 
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