Is America's aviation/exploration spirit dying ?

Somewhere, on some planet or asteroid, is the cure to cancer or Alzheimer's etc. Or a new element to play with that could ignite cold fusion for sustainable energy. Or a plant that would grow 50 feet tall in the desert and feed a hundred people.

We give up more than money when we stop exploring. We give up our future along with our spirit.

One day, we may need to leave this rock en-mass. I sure hope when that day comes, we haven't frittered our chance away because we went complacent, and fiscally paralyzed.

Yes, the problem is distance. That element/plant is LIGHT YEARS away, it does not exist in our solar system not to mention anywhere within our reach, if it did we would have found evidence with one of our unmanned probes. We will not find it by any technology that we have today, as I said, that will not come until we develop the technology to either fold space-time, or depart it altogether with a way to re-enter at a desired set of coordinates in space & time.

We will not develop this technology by wasting money rocket propelling people to the moon. We will develop this technology with accelerators similar to the LHC at CERN. You will never find the future you don't know in the past, by looking to the past one only can find how to avoid the present.
 
The only reason to go to an airshow is to see Bob Hoover fly.

Not much chance of that today.

You mean you don't go to see 20 different guys in their Pitts doing the same routine over and over (with slight variations)? :rolleyes:

To me most airshow "performances" are akin to watching paint dry.
 
Ted posted the right answer, but of course, you couldn't jump hard enough to let you deorbit in any reasonable time.

A little back o' the envelope figuring seems to indicate that you'd need on the order of 150 feet per second of delta-v. It depends on your starting altitude and what perigee would give you a reasonable chance to get sucked in (I used a 150 nm circular, assuming that you'd need to burn to a perigee around 70 nm).

150 FPS is roughly 100 MPH, if you can jump that hard, you're good. The rest of us would need some oooompf. Some sort of nav system, too, to orient the push.

Ron Wanttaja

What happens when you jump away from Earth, say at a 60°up/30°aft?
 
You mean you don't go to see 20 different guys in their Pitts doing the same routine over and over (with slight variations)? :rolleyes:

To me most airshow "performances" are akin to watching paint dry.

Amen. The only act I watched at osh the last time we were there was the black twin beech.
 
You mean you don't go to see 20 different guys in their Pitts doing the same routine over and over (with slight variations)? :rolleyes:

To me most airshow "performances" are akin to watching paint dry.


You have to regress back to a time when you were a kid, and the world had not beat you down and made us so cynical and de-spirited.

The Thunderbird's were flying super sabre's the first time I saw them. They were loud, they smoked like a train, but magical to me and I loved them.

On the weekend's when I was allowed to stay up, the TV (B&W with two channels) signed off with a F-104 Starfighter at midnight. It still gives me goosebumps to hear John Magee's High Flight.


F-104_5.jpg



Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, --and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of --Wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air...
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew --
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.
 
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Yes, the F-104 was fun to watch in Turkey during our UH-60 mission to help the Kurdish refugees in 1991. These later models smoked good and were very loud too. Turkey retired them in 1995.
 
What happens when you jump away from Earth, say at a 60°up/30°aft?
You need a 100 MPH directed in such a way as to slow you up. Jumping up just adds a bit of eccentricity to your orbit. You're traveling at 19,000 MPH, to affect your path, you really need a directed push. If you can jump at 10 MPH, the upward component would change your instantaneous vector by about 0.015 degree. Not much help.

At the same time, offsetting your thrust by 30° would mean wasting about 14% of the effort (Cosine 30°). You still have ~92 MPH to make up....

Just back of the envelope calculations, of course.

Ron Wanttaja
 
It was a step in the right direction, yes, but it was not funded properly. Cancelling Constellation was the right move under the circumstances. Additionally, there were serious questions about the vehicles being designed then (the Ares-line) as there still are about the current development of the SLS heavy-lifter. Namely, they were designed by committee and heavily politicized rather than simply handing money to the best engineers in the business to build a rocket however they saw fit.

Don't get me wrong -- I WISH we could commit to a program like that, but at the moment our space program is simply being pulled in too many directions with congress and the president continually changing the goal. Sometimes it's mars, sometimes it's the moon then mars, sometimes it's getting an asteroid, sometimes it's supporting commercial exploration. Right now the President is pushing us towards an asteroid retrieval program which is probably doable with current funding, but Congress absolutely hates it to the point of trying to prohibit NASA spending any money on it. It's such a mess, and it's the fault of an overly bureaucratic agency and insufficient funding for something like a mission to mars, not to mention new administrations that change plans every few years.

What I'm getting at is that we as a nation need to come together to urge the government to support manned space exploration and to do it right. Using the tired old refrain of "oh, it's Obama's fault" takes away from the real issue and just makes everybody get defensive and polarized, which is exactly why nothing gets done either way. I'm with you that it's a damn shame we can't get to the moon, but not that it's as simple as Obama's fault.

This isn't the SZ, so I won't make much of a comment other Thant when you have a president say to NASA that it's TOP priority should be Muslin outreach, something is seriously wrong with the character of this country.

It's not really surprising that President Obama told NASA administrator Charles Bolden that his highest priority should be "to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering." It fits with so much that we already knew about the president.

Read more: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/07/07/nasas_muslim_outreach_106214.html#ixzz2oGRp9Ejs
Follow us: @RCP_Articles on Twitter

Add to that the belief that out Military is there for humanitarian aid (not limited to this president) and we have lost our way as leader of the free world. Did you hear about sailors on the USS Ronald Reagan getting cancer? They were doing desalination for the Japanese after the tsunami. Wonderful.

The number of U.S. sailors who claim to have been poisoned by radiation while serving during the 2011 tsunami in Japan - resulting in cases of leukemia, thyroid and testicular cancers, chronic bronchitis and brain tumors - has jumped to 51, as the group continue to fight the company they say didn't report the contamination when it happened.

The U.S. Navy members who were allegedly infected - who served aboard the USS Ronald Reagan and its sister ship the USS Essex - started to develop strange symptoms and sicknesses in the months following their mission near the Fukushima nuclear power plant, such as lumps, night sweats and dramatic weight-loss.

Now the majority of the group who worked in the rescue effort have been diagnosed with an assortment of diseases, after their ships' desalination systems pulled in contaminated seawater that was used for drinking, cooking and bathing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rs-allegedly-poisoned-radiation-jumps-51.html
 
You need a 100 MPH directed in such a way as to slow you up. Jumping up just adds a bit of eccentricity to your orbit. You're traveling at 19,000 MPH, to affect your path, you really need a directed push. If you can jump at 10 MPH, the upward component would change your instantaneous vector by about 0.015 degree. Not much help.

At the same time, offsetting your thrust by 30° would mean wasting about 14% of the effort (Cosine 30°). You still have ~92 MPH to make up....

Just back of the envelope calculations, of course.

Ron Wanttaja

With no resistance, do you think some Mentos and a 2 liter of Diet Coke would do it?
 
Sorry, but that's incorrect. In 2004 George Bush announced that the shuttle program would be retired in 2010. Funding was eliminated for shuttle flights after that date. In 2009 the Democratic Congress voted to extend the program through 2011. Look it up if you don't believe.

I did and I stand by my original statement.

But it's a moot point because it does not answer the OP question.
 
This isn't the SZ, so I won't make much of a comment other Thant when you have a president say to NASA that it's TOP priority should be Muslin outreach....
What, he's a man of the cloth, now....? :)

Ron Wanttaja
 
With no resistance, do you think some Mentos and a 2 liter of Diet Coke would do it?
Can't tell, the back of my envelope is soaked with Diet Coke. :)

Depends on what the specific impulse (ISP) of the combo is. I see the smaller Estes rockets have an ISP of roughly 100 seconds. Optimistically, lets say the DC/Mentos pair gets a quarter of that. Diet Coke weighs about the same as water, so we've got about four pounds of propellant.

Furthermore, let's assume you weigh 300 pounds in your space suit.

I compute about 10 FPS of delta-v, about a fifteenth of what you need.

Your problem will be to add the Mentos to the Diet Coke in the absence of gravity and to keep it solidly in contact with the fluid.

A good reference:

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/mentos.htm

Ron Wanttaja
 
The space program and Thunderbird's were huge influences on me as a boy. I idolized the astronauts, and marveled at the Thunderbirds. I watched them and told myself that's what I want to do someday. Now, kids want to be like Kim and Kanye. It's very sad the role models we serve up nowadays. :(

Um, are you paying attention at all to what is being done now? I ask because you mention the Thunderbirds (I'm going with the cartoon, not the real flying team since they weren't as inspiring to me as the cartoon) and ironically the SpaceX Grasshopper is intended to perform very much like you used to see in those old TV shows. Here is a video of one of their test flights:

 
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Can't tell, the back of my envelope is soaked with Diet Coke. :)

Depends on what the specific impulse (ISP) of the combo is. I see the smaller Estes rockets have an ISP of roughly 100 seconds. Optimistically, lets say the DC/Mentos pair gets a quarter of that. Diet Coke weighs about the same as water, so we've got about four pounds of propellant.

Furthermore, let's assume you weigh 300 pounds in your space suit.

I compute about 10 FPS of delta-v, about a fifteenth of what you need.

Your problem will be to add the Mentos to the Diet Coke in the absence of gravity and to keep it solidly in contact with the fluid.

A good reference:

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/mentos.htm

Ron Wanttaja

Well, if I need 30 liters of DC and 15+ packs of Mentos, I could just make a keg with a nozzle even that would have the Mentos housed in tubes with retractable covers.... Think I could get Coke and Mentos to sponsor the try? Should be fun.
 
Um, are you paying attention at all to what is being done now? I ask because you mention the Thunderbirds (I'm going with the cartoon, not the real flying team since they weren't as inspiring to me as the cartoon) and ironically the SpaceX Grasshopper is intended to perform very much like you used to see in those old TV shows. Here is a video of one of their test flights:




I quit watching cartoon's when I was about ten or so, fourty five years ago. :redface:

That PVC pipe does not create the majesty of the Saturn V. Or Mercury, Gemini.

Where's the right stuff?
 
I quit watching cartoon's when I was about ten or so, fourty five years ago. :redface:

That PVC pipe does not create the majesty of the Saturn V. Or Mercury, Gemini.

Where's the right stuff?

That is a video of the Falcon 9 v1.0 booster, which I believe has a greater payload to LEO than the Atlas booster used for the Gemini project. That is full size real rocket in that video. No PVC pipe toy.

My answer to your question in your first post is a suggestion to follow how SpaceX fares. They are working to lower the cost to orbit so that it is tiny fraction of what it has been. Elon Musk wants to colonize Mars and has managed to establish a lot of space firsts in that goal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacex
 
I'm a school teacher so I'm around middle school aged kids a lot. None of them talk about space or flying. Now they think it is awesome that I fly and am a pilot. They love my basic aviation lessons I teach and the paper airplane contest I have, but without something driving them forward they are more interessted in other things. So I guess my point is, it's not the children of today who are going to bring things back- its been crushed by the generation right after the so called " greatest generation" that has crushed far too much in my opinion. Although, you can't really blame them either since we don't have many options when we are broke.

Solution- get out of debt as a country and then life can work on things like, "spirit".
 
Yep, the Baby Boomers were born spoiled and have been the most selfish generation yet.
 
I don't know that it has anything to with feminism but we definitely have become way more risk averse.

What people want today is INSURANCE! Home, Auto, Aircraft, Life, Medical, Disability, Long term care, and to cover it all just-in-case an umbrella policy.

Maybe it's the faster flow of information? Sensationalist media? Or perhaps a lot of folks in the USA have things pretty cushy and have more free time to sit around and think. That leads to more laws to prevent bad things from happening or more insurance to cover all the real and imagined risks.

It is older then the current prez, two maybe three decades. One of the things feminism has brought along is the disdain and outright outlawing of risk. That is the keystone. No worries we'll put all those dangerous old things we don't allow anyone to use anymore in museums, course we won't send school trips there as we don't want to encourage that sort of behavior.
 
As far as the space program goes, at the time it was the cold war and competition with the Russians that was driving it. Right now we can't justify the expense because no one has come up with a compelling enough reason. As far as idealizing the 1960s, people either must not be old enough to remember or are wearing those rose-colored glasses again. There was more conflict within the country back then than there is now. Back then the old folk were wondering what the country had come to. It happens every generation. Nothing new.
 
Our last balanced budget (mild surplus) was the year 2000. SInce 2001 we have run deficit budgets. The rise in national debt is logarithmic - look at the curve of 2001 to the end of 2013 and ask any reasonably bright student who has had first year calculus to plug that curve into his graphing calculator and show you what what the debt will be in 2020. The answer will blow your socks off.
(mathematics, not politics makes it inevitable)
We are a debtor nation, way behind on our payment schedule, ducking our creditors, standing around with our hand out and whining "But it's not my fault".
We are not going back to the moon and we are not going to mars.
The reality of being a dead beat debtor.

China on the other hand is ascendent and very likely to go to the moon with a man.
(90% probable in my opinion)
Mars? ehhh, I'm not sure on that.
I expect their rising gimme-gimme class of young people (yuppies) to want that national money for other things - and they will beginning to take power from the old guard by then. What goes around comes around.
The other thing is our government funded research onto new technology for going to Mars is all but at a standstill. Not much of anything new for their hackers to steal - though they did a bang up job of putting a rover on the moon with the technology they did steal so far.

Can all this be changed/improved/forestalled (like Marley and the Christmas Ghost)?
Yes.
But you have to appoint me dictator for life and I will do the hard things that our I-will-run-for-office-until-dead professional politicians are incapable of doing.
 
Not to mention we're buying our heavy lift rocket engines from the Russians. Apparently they managed an efficiency we believed was impossible.
 
You want America in space? Defund NASA(they will be in the way otherwise) make money spent on space exploration tax free. We'll get that theme park on the moon in no time.
 
You want America in space? Defund NASA(they will be in the way otherwise) make money spent on space exploration tax free. We'll get that theme park on the moon in no time.


And then whine about the people who put in the seriously hard work to accomplish it, saying they're not paying their "fair share" as you order your tickets to go there on vacation next year on their website. :)
 
You guys are freaking funny. How much do you think it would cost to build "Luna Park" or any space based attraction? TRILLIONS! There is no potential for return on investment.
 
You guys are freaking funny. How much do you think it would cost to build "Luna Park" or any space based attraction? TRILLIONS! There is no potential for return on investment.

The amusement park is a joke. Serious part is getting the gov out of space and letting private untaxed money have a go.
 
One must remember that when Kennedy proclaimed the trip to the moon, there were millions more good paying jobs then, much better tax base. Not really comparable. Sending jobs to child labor in poor country's wasn't popular at that time. Walmart was just a twinkle in SAMs eye then. Taxes were also much higher then.
 
One must remember that when Kennedy proclaimed the trip to the moon, there were millions more good paying jobs then, much better tax base. Not really comparable. Sending jobs to child labor in poor country's wasn't popular at that time. Walmart was just a twinkle in SAMs eye then. Taxes were also much higher then.

Until Sam died, WalMart was a Made in America shop. It was his kids that sold out. What hadn't happened yet was that Nixon hadn't gone to China, that was the beginning of the end of America.
 
And then whine about the people who put in the seriously hard work to accomplish it, saying they're not paying their "fair share" as you order your tickets to go there on vacation next year on their website. :)

Another barrier to private space exploration is that current treaties keep governments from protecting claims.

So if I go to the moon and find gold nothing stops you from jumping my claim.
 
Another barrier to private space exploration is that current treaties keep governments from protecting claims.



So if I go to the moon and find gold nothing stops you from jumping my claim.


Easily fixed. Buy a politician or two.
 
It is older then the current prez, two maybe three decades. One of the things feminism has brought along is the disdain and outright outlawing of risk. That is the keystone. No worries we'll put all those dangerous old things we don't allow anyone to use anymore in museums, course we won't send school trips there as we don't want to encourage that sort of behavior.

I'm quite sure we will spend ten times as much,a s soon as the idiots in DC figure out that others have a huge leg up on us.
 
Orbital launch would seem to be the way to go for deeper space travel.

Launch from a space station in space. It would save tons of fuel since you do not have to overcome earth's gravity.

What happened to ion drive? It was all the rage for about ten seconds. You could burn up to speed on rocket fuel, then switch to ion propulsion to continue on.
 
Orbital launch would seem to be the way to go for deeper space travel.

Launch from a space station in space. It would save tons of fuel since you do not have to overcome earth's gravity.

What happened to ion drive? It was all the rage for about ten seconds. You could burn up to speed on rocket fuel, then switch to ion propulsion to continue on.

Very low power, don't really have a use for one at this point.
 
2013 was the worst year for airshow's in recent history because of the sequester, and the kicker that the FAA wants to charge big dollars for ATC services.

How does any of this have anything with American spirit of exploration?
 
Not to mention we're buying our heavy lift rocket engines from the Russians. Apparently they managed an efficiency we believed was impossible.
I don't think "we" believed that the "efficiency" was impossible. The RD-170 was flying for a while by the time Lockheed paid for the development of RD-180. And the NK-33 was in production sice 1970s. If anything, it was widely believed that such highly efficient kerosene engines were unnecessary. I hope you understand that nothing comes close to the efficiency of hydrogen for in-space propulsion. So, it was only needed to lift the hydrogen rocket out of the atmosphere. Solids did that admirably, as the experience of Arianne, H-2, and Shuttle demonstrates. Therefore, U.S. was not developing highly efficient kerosene engines.
 
Orbital launch would seem to be the way to go for deeper space travel.

True. It takes as much energy to reach low earth orbit as it does to reach escape velocity and reach the rest of the universe. Low earth orbit is the half-way point to the rest of the universe, kinetic energy-wise.

What happened to ion drive? It was all the rage for about ten seconds. You could burn up to speed on rocket fuel, then switch to ion propulsion to continue on.

Ion drive is not only still all the rage, they are using Xenon ion thrusters in the Dawn spacecraft as the main propulsion. Elsewhere they use ion thrusters in satellites for station-keeping.
 
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