IR to fly approaches and fly in crummy weather OR to go VFR on top

You got your IR for

  • to bust through a layer and go on top

    Votes: 17 17.0%
  • to shoot approaches!

    Votes: 7 7.0%
  • a little of both

    Votes: 76 76.0%

  • Total voters
    100

saracelica

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saracelica
So was talking with some IR friends. Not many of them fly through the "muck" so if you're IR do you have it so you can pop in the clouds/shoot approaches or both. Yes it's a good out but do you (the reader) enjoy shooting approaches or was the IR to get you through a layer.
 
I take it you are not instrument rated. It's not about flying in the muck. It's about having additional options not available to VFR-only pilots.

Yes, most instrument pilots, even those who fly IFR all the time, generally spend only a small portion of their flight time "in the muck."

Other than the fact that clouds aren't there every day and don't continue up forever and so many cloud layers are scattered rather than overcast, I guess most are like me: I like sunshine better than muck.

So if I'm tooling along in the clouds , I know there are tops within the comfortable capabilities of my aircraft, I want to go up here for 2 hours instead of being in the clouds. Getting to climb through a layer or descend using an instrument approach to get down (most of which end far above minimums; sometimes in complete VFR) is just a plus.
 
I'm nearing the end of my IR training and was surprised that he did VFR on top so often. Figured I'd see what other pilots do.
 
The point of an instrument rating to take weather out of the equation except for the dangerous parts like ice and CB's. Woke up last weekend, wanted to go see a friend who lives near KSEE- oops wx is 1400 OVC and 4 miles viz at take off and 1800OVC-BKN with 10 miles - didn't think another thing about it - file a flight plan and go.

Its a different way of traveling - thought of like that is not big deal as long as you appreciate and evaluate your risks on any given hop.

Shoot - about 6 months ago I did an approach to GPS mins at CMA just to get some tri-tip. . ..
 
I'm nearing the end of my IR training and was surprised that he did VFR on top so often. Figured I'd see what other pilots do.

hand flying in the clouds can get old. I have an autopilot which helps a great deal, but I'd rather have some type of visual reference to make the job a little easier. Also, it's really quite a site to get on top of the clouds.
 
I have always had a little chuckle about the Instrument Rating - all through training, you can't wait to fly in "actual". You lament that beautiful, clear weather that never existed during your Private training but is now all there is. You are eager to get your ticket "wet". Maybe you even get a few hours in the clouds in training. Then you pass your checkride, do it a few more times for "fun", and spend the rest of your flying days asking for altitude changes and course deviations specifically to avoid flying in the clouds if possible!

Yep, I did it too.
 
Great to have to break through a layer. Also like to be ready to do an approach,since we know the forecast doesn't always hold true.
 
I don't mind the clouds , BUT my wife hates it so I get through them as soon as I can.
 
A little of both, and a lot of other things, too. Basically, it gives me additional flexibility to more often fly where I want, when I want, in the safest and most comfortable manner possible.
 
Seldom does an IFR flight happen in solid clag from start to finish, more often it might consist of climbing up thru' a low cloud layer and/or perhaps an instrument approach at the other end with some or even most of the enroute portion either in clear air above the clouds or in that semi-clear air between layers. About the only time I'll be content to slog along in the cloud down low will be if that's what it takes to stay below the freezing level.
Here's a few I took a couple of years ago on an IFR flight between Glasgow, Montana and Miles City, Montana motoring down V254 at the MEA of 6000' just below the freezing level that was between 7000 & 8000.

edit; OK, from the heading on the DG in the first picture I'd say that was between my ranch strip and Glasgow, and as I recall the fourth pic was taken between Miles City and Billings, Montana as the weather began to improve.........all four photos were on the same flight tho'
 

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to paraphrase, did you buy your car:
1. To drive on the highway
2. To drive around town
3. A little of both
 
my point which I think got lost somewhere is this. Over the last 50 hours of training for "The most difficult certificate" is climbing to an altitude and being in clouds (Real or foggles) and following the approach chart to shoot an approach and go missed to get to another airport with another type of approach. Then landing at home. Which is all fine and good. Then I talk to other IR pilots and they say "I don't like getting to minimums and shooting an approach I just use it to bust through a couple layers" Just was curious what the masses of PoA thought and their experiences (which I thought was the whole point of this web board)
 
my point which I think got lost somewhere is this. Over the last 50 hours of training for "The most difficult certificate" is climbing to an altitude and being in clouds (Real or foggles) and following the approach chart to shoot an approach and go missed to get to another airport with another type of approach. Then landing at home. Which is all fine and good. Then I talk to other IR pilots and they say "I don't like getting to minimums and shooting an approach I just use it to bust through a couple layers" Just was curious what the masses of PoA thought and their experiences (which I thought was the whole point of this web board)

In theory, I have no problem with flying in minimums. In reality, I won't go unless the forecast is well above minimums and there is a good alternate available. I don't want to be that guy that gets stuck in bad weather and can't land.
 
my point which I think got lost somewhere is this. Over the last 50 hours of training for "The most difficult certificate" is climbing to an altitude and being in clouds (Real or foggles) and following the approach chart to shoot an approach and go missed to get to another airport with another type of approach. Then landing at home. Which is all fine and good. Then I talk to other IR pilots and they say "I don't like getting to minimums and shooting an approach I just use it to bust through a couple layers" Just was curious what the masses of PoA thought and their experiences (which I thought was the whole point of this web board)
Any instrument rated pilot who just uses the rating to "bust thru' a layer" but is uncomfortable flying in the clouds and/or flying a low approach is setting himself up for a rude surprise someday, weather isn't all that predictable. Unlike simulated with a view-limiting device when you fly into the cloud for real you're in it until you fly out again whether that's three minutes later or at the end of an instrument approach to minimums at your destination. I can't speak for others but personally, ice and/or imbedded thunderstorms aside I have no problem with flying inside the milk bottle from right after takeoff to MDA or DH on the instrument approach at my destination. Actually I find it strangely relaxing.
 
A little of both, and a lot of other things, too. Basically, it gives me additional flexibility to more often fly where I want, when I want, in the safest and most comfortable manner possible.
This.
 
Seldom does an IFR flight happen in solid clag from start to finish, more often it might consist of climbing up thru' a low cloud layer and/or perhaps an instrument approach at the other end with some or even most of the enroute portion either in clear air above the clouds or in that semi-clear air between layers. About the only time I'll be content to slog along in the cloud down low will be if that's what it takes to stay below the freezing level.
Here's a few I took a couple of years ago on an IFR flight between Glasgow, Montana and Miles City, Montana motoring down V254 at the MEA of 6000' just below the freezing level that was between 7000 & 8000.

What's the out if the FZlevel descends enroute?
 
What's the out if the FZlevel descends enroute?
Good question, to which I hope I can provide a useful answer. Anytime you find yourself in a icing situation from which you wish to extricate yourself there's really only three options, descend, climb, divert or a combination of the three. This is where positional and situational awareness come into play. We know from our pre-flight briefing that the big picture is; we're flying on the west backside of an active system moving east so it might be safe to assume worse weather is to the east and improving weather is to the west, now..........exactly where are we when we find the need to divert? We're already at MEA (6000) on the airway, OTOH if we're close enuf' to Miles City then a diversion to Miles City is an option to consider. "cleared for the approach to Miles City, maintain at or above five thousand 'til established", if we're still too far out to consider that then keep in mind until just now we were flying in ice free air at 6000' so perhaps a 180* turn would be in order? Perhaps a climb to either colder ice free air or even clear air between layers would be an option assuming you're flying in the lower layer, even a deviation to the west toward improving weather is something to consider.
FWIW, actually on the flight described at one point the "Z" level did prove a bit lower than advertised, I'm motoring along at 6000 on the airway sometimes just in the higher tops of the lower layer when I noticed rain slowly steaking up the windshield was beginning to become slushy and collect up in the corners. I'm perhaps 20 miles north of Miles City when some guy calls Center on the ground at Miles requesting IFR clearance, Center called me and asked if I could accept seven thousand to let a departure out? My reply, "negative, unable. I'm bumping my head on the freezing level here at six thousand". Another ten miles later I started to break out above the lower layer and could see improvement ahead and to the west toward Billings so I told Center I'd accept 7000 now and "everybody lived happily ever after" :) So what'ya do if the weather would have instead worsened and ice began to accumulate? Refer to the above described options.
 
Depends on your "personal minimums." When I train a new IR pilot, I recommend filing in all MVFR and to climb up through the overcast to VFR conditions on top. Cloud flying is fine and often quite smooth, especially this time of year. The main advantage is, as someone else stated, options and safety. That is provided you remain proficient, which is not necessarily the same as being "current."
 
Very well put Ron.
 
I'm nearing the end of my IR training and was surprised that he did VFR on top so often. Figured I'd see what other pilots do.

Make sure your CFII teaches you what "VFR on top" actually is. It's not what you're making it sound like here.

I use the IR simply to make my pilot certificate more valuable, allowing higher dispatch rate and better reliability for travel.

To answer the question: I'll slog through the muck for the whole flight sometimes. I'll shoot an approach to minimums sometimes. I'll land in crosswinds gusting to 35 knots sometimes. Do all three on a single flight that I'm doing for "fun"? Nuh uh, that's not sounding so "fun" anymore.

But, given the choice, I'd much rather cruise on top or between layers where there's something to look at outside. My most frequent type of IFR flight is one where there's an overcast anywhere from 1000 to 5000 AGL with tops below 10,000 MSL. Pop into the muck, pop out the top, enjoy the beautiful weather up there for a while, pop back down into the muck, shoot an approach if I need to, land, and marvel at the technology that allows it all and how lucky I am to be able to get some sun on a crappy gray day where all the ground pounders are stuck under the muck.

 
After seeing several videos of pilots skimming the tops, I may have a bit of confusion:

I understood that once reporting VFR on Top that the hemispherical rule came into play. How does one get cleared for skimming?
 
After seeing several videos of pilots skimming the tops, I may have a bit of confusion:

I understood that once reporting VFR on Top that the hemispherical rule came into play. How does one get cleared for skimming?
There's a big difference between the IFR clearance "VFR on Top" and flying an assigned altitude on an IFR clearance that puts you just skimming the tops. You can assume the fellow in the video was flying a clearance with a "hard" (assigned) altitude or at least a block altitude. If you're on a VFR on Top clearance you're required to maintain VFR cloud clearances including at least 1000' above.
 
After seeing several videos of pilots skimming the tops, I may have a bit of confusion:

I understood that once reporting VFR on Top that the hemispherical rule came into play. How does one get cleared for skimming?

There's a big difference between the IFR clearance "VFR on Top" and flying an assigned altitude on an IFR clearance that puts you just skimming the tops. You can assume the fellow in the video was flying a clearance with a "hard" (assigned) altitude or at least a block altitude. If you're on a VFR on Top clearance you're required to maintain VFR cloud clearances including at least 1000' above.

Jaybird... What peerless cowboy wrote, plus: VERY few people use VFR on top. In over a thousand hours, I've never used it (and don't think I'd ever have a use for it) and I've never heard anyone else on frequency cleared for it.

I have done VFR over the top - a VFR operation (take off, climb, cruise, descend and land in the clear, but fly over clouds in the middle). I end up in VMC above the weather on the vast majority of my IFR flights. But, I've never requested or done VFR on top (an IFR operation). I really don't see the point.
 
Jaybird... What peerless cowboy wrote, plus: VERY few people use VFR on top. In over a thousand hours, I've never used it (and don't think I'd ever have a use for it) and I've never heard anyone else on frequency cleared for it.

I have done VFR over the top - a VFR operation (take off, climb, cruise, descend and land in the clear, but fly over clouds in the middle). I end up in VMC above the weather on the vast majority of my IFR flights. But, I've never requested or done VFR on top (an IFR operation). I really don't see the point.

I'm glad you said that. I've done several IFR flight plans, and I've never had a reason to ask for VFR on top. I was wondering how often people ask for it and why.
 
I've never requested or done VFR on top (an IFR operation). I really don't see the point.
When my dad was flying SF-340's he would sometimes depart VFR then just pick up an IFR clearance once he got closer to his destination. He said it saved him some time on the ground and while en route
 
I have always had a little chuckle about the Instrument Rating - all through training, you can't wait to fly in "actual". You lament that beautiful, clear weather that never existed during your Private training but is now all there is. You are eager to get your ticket "wet". Maybe you even get a few hours in the clouds in training. Then you pass your checkride, do it a few more times for "fun", and spend the rest of your flying days asking for altitude changes and course deviations specifically to avoid flying in the clouds if possible!

Yep, I did it too.

Then you have the crazies like Andrew [bestforwardspeed] - who live for those days when its 100' above mins and below mins at certain places so they know they will get a missed . . .
 
PS: I've NEVER been able to use VFR on top clearance near any sort of significant airspace - BOSNYWASH amply does not allow it. Forget ORD/ATL/DFW etc
 
PS: I've NEVER been able to use VFR on top clearance near any sort of significant airspace - BOSNYWASH amply does not allow it. Forget ORD/ATL/DFW etc

A friend who works at Washington Center said they would not know what to do if a pilot asked for VFR on Top.
 
PS: I've NEVER been able to use VFR on top clearance near any sort of significant airspace - BOSNYWASH amply does not allow it. Forget ORD/ATL/DFW etc


Correct. VFR on top (or OTP) gives up too much airspace. Being OTP inside bravo airspace gives the controller no advantages, it is positive control airspace.

A friend who works at Washington Center said they would not know what to do if a pilot asked for VFR on Top.


I believe it. We rarely get the request, so it's one where most scramble for the book (7110.65) to figure out what ATC's responsibilities are.


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In my life I have never been 'VFR on top'. Plenty of VMC on top but I never got why I'd want to cancel? If there's a layer below me then I'm most likely going to need another IFR clearance in the near future...so why not just keep the one I'm on?

As far as how I use my ATP, clouds mean little to me. There or not doesn't really matter. Visibility is controlling and that's what I look at for go / no go. Ceilings only matter for if I need an alternate and finding a legal one.

In my world it's either legal and we go or not and we look for plan B (another airport that is legal). Very seldom is the day we cancel for weather.

I know it's a big step up in cost, but having a plane certified into known icing is just about as liberating as getting your IR. Opens up a ton of otherwise restricted flight days, especially in winter.
 
I'm glad you said that. I've done several IFR flight plans, and I've never had a reason to ask for VFR on top. I was wondering how often people ask for it and why.
The clearance does have advantages in some situations. Understand that to use "VFR on Top" you need not be on top of anything, you only need to maintain VFR visibility and cloud clearance. In return for accepting responsibility for your own separation from other IFR aircraft you relieve ATC of the obligation to provide IFR separation which can sometimes and under some circumstances provide more efficient use of the airspace in good visual weather conditions and in a non-radar environment. I've used the clearance a couple of times to allow a fellow pilot to either climb thru' or descend thru' my altitude while both of us remained on an IFR clearance.
Another practical use is under some circumstances (direct off airways route outside navaid service volumes it can allow flight down as low as minimum instrument altitude but below radar coverage.
 
In my life I have never been 'VFR on top'. Plenty of VMC on top but I never got why I'd want to cancel? If there's a layer below me then I'm most likely going to need another IFR clearance in the near future...so why not just keep the one I'm on?
You don't seem to understand the VFR on Top clearance :confused: , the purpose of which is to allow some of the flexibility of visual flight rules without the need to cancel your IFR clearance.
 
Correct. VFR on top (or OTP) gives up too much airspace. Being OTP inside bravo airspace gives the controller no advantages, it is positive control airspace.
In class E airspace and for non-radar operations the clearance can in fact free up the airspace by relieving ATC of responsibility of providing separation. Yeah, I'd assume that in class B it wouldn't be an advantage to anybody.
......I'd be willing to bet you don't issue many cruise clearances in class B either, out here in flyover country we find use for those too :wink2:
 
I'm glad you said that. I've done several IFR flight plans, and I've never had a reason to ask for VFR on top. I was wondering how often people ask for it and why.
I can recall asking for, and getting cleared for, vfr on top a few times but i believe I was actually under the clouds, not on top of them.

In my life I have never been 'VFR on top'. Plenty of VMC on top but I never got why I'd want to cancel? If there's a layer below me then I'm most likely going to need another IFR clearance in the near future...so why not just keep the one I'm on?
Good idea. I guess it's better to be lucky than good when penning a post on a topic you know nothing about.
 
Lol, well, I did say I've never done it.

Okay, so that's the point...you keep you're clearance for later?
 
In class E airspace and for non-radar operations the clearance can in fact free up the airspace by relieving ATC of responsibility of providing separation. Yeah, I'd assume that in class B it wouldn't be an advantage to anybody.

......I'd be willing to bet you don't issue many cruise clearances in class B either, out here in flyover country we find use for those too :wink2:


Most of my airspace is dominated by the Bravo. If I can provide an advantage to the pilot, and not adversely impact my neighboring sectors, I'll issue bravo clearances. OTP doesn't give any help, since I still need to use IFR separation.

In the center environment, sure. But heck, after eleven years take a guess how many OTP clearances I issued...

Now take a guess how many cruise or through clearances I issued. ;)






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