Ipad question for soon to be CFI

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rodzilla

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rodzilla
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

I currently started my CFI training and Im looking to buy an Ipad for foreflight/CFI purposes, and because of the current blackfriday deals I have a few questions.

Is it better to get a mini vs ipad air 2 for training and operating foreflight in C152s and 172s?

Is the cellular model worth the added price vs the wifi + external gps?

Blackfriday has huge deals on all models including cellular, around $100 off.
However the wifi models are also around $100-$150 cheaper vs cellular to start off with.

Is the extra $200 in savings worth the extra carrying of a external gps and power drainage if I were to pick the wifi model against the cellular?


I need to kind of gauge how people feel using wifi vs cellular.
 
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Size depends where you want to mount it. I have an ipad air yoke mounted but there's not a lot of room and the Piper "ram horn" yoke is wider than the Cessna one I think, at least the older Cessnas.

On the yoke, I'd go with whatever fits. Knee, either works fine, I like the larger one there.

I think the Cellular one is worth it. No external GPS to mess with, some people will say you get spotty reception with the internal one, but that hasn't been my experience. The cellular one is really nice for checking weather at remote airports or other places with no internet connection.

You'll pay $100 for an external GPS, and still have no cellular capability...
 
Mini with cellular, done.
 
awesome thanks for the info. Theres not really much information on internal GPS usage/coverage while operating it. I got the mini 4 cell.
 
rodzilla said:
awesome thanks for the info. Theres not really much information on internal GPS usage/coverage while operating it. I got the mini 4 cell.
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Good choice.

The tech shows are touting tests that show the Mini 4 has the best overall screen of any iPad. Better even than the new iPad Pro.

Remember, no need to activate the cellular unless you want to. There are times that might be handy, but in many years I think we've only bought two individual months. For now if we don't have wifi handy, the iPhone6+ gets the job done well enough.

One final thing: WingXPro7 is offered free to flight instructors.
 
rodzilla said:
awesome thanks for the info. Theres not really much information on internal GPS usage/coverage while operating it. I got the mini 4 cell.
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I have a mini GSM cellular (with no cell service, just using the GPS), be had it over 300kts and up to FL280, also had it low and slow flying floats off remote lakes, the internal GPS is more than adiquite.
 
I was very happy with my mini as it's well suited for a small cockpit.

Advise: BE SURE TO GET ONE WITH A DATA PLAN. DO NOT BUY A WIFI ONLY MODEL.
 
For CFI, iPad Air 2. The larger size is much better when using it for instruction.

Get the cellular model. You want the built-in GPS

I have the 128GB model and don't regret it.
 
Jonesy has a good point about the larger size thing. Still, most trainer cockpits are pretty tight. I guess it'd depend how much you use it as an aid with the student.
 
Captain said:
I was very happy with my mini as it's well suited for a small cockpit.

Advise: BE SURE TO GET ONE WITH A DATA PLAN. DO NOT BUY A WIFI ONLY MODEL.
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I have a wifi only model that works quite well since I also use a GDL-39-3D to feed ADS-B and AHRS info as well. Batteries in the iPad last a lot longer without all the internal junk. I can pare it down to BT alone and save a lot of battery. GPS eats battery. I used to use an XGPS-150 w/iPad2 and would get twice time as my buddy's with internal on the same flight.
 
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Henning said:
I have a wifi only model that works quite well since I also use a GDL-39-3D to feed ADS-B and AHRS info as well. Batteries in the iPad last a lot longer without all the internal junk. I can pare it down to BT alone and save a lot of battery. GPS eats battery. I used to use an XGPS-150 w/iPad2 and would get twice time as my buddy's with internal on the same flight.
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It's not the GPS but the cellular that needs power. I turn off wifi and cell data and battery life has never been an issue.

I also carry a portable backup battery and 12V adapters to plug in when able.
 
LDJones said:
It's not the GPS but the cellular that needs power. I turn off wifi and cell data and battery life has never been an issue.

I also carry a portable backup battery and 12V adapters to plug in when able.
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ding ding ding...winner


Link


Anker-Astro-E6-Ultra-High-Capacity-20800mAh-B.jpg
 
LDJones said:
It's not the GPS but the cellular that needs power. I turn off wifi and cell data and battery life has never been an issue.

I also carry a portable backup battery and 12V adapters to plug in when able.
Click to expand...

GPS takes power sir, more power than cell on standby. When the GPS in my iPhone6+ is on, the thing gets hot. That's not only indicative of a battery drain, it adds to overheat shut down problems.
 
Just use the internal GPS, carrying a bunch of crap around, all of which uses batteries just isn't something I'd want to do, plus the mini is the perfect size for aviation applications.
 
Henning said:
GPS takes power sir, more power than cell on standby. When the GPS in my iPhone6+ is on, the thing gets hot. That's not only indicative of a battery drain, it adds to overheat shut down problems.
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it's a receiver. It takes power, but very little compared to the transmitters required for cell and WiFi. If your phone is getting hot with WiFi and cell off then you're doing it wrong.
 
Captain said:
it's a receiver. It takes power, but very little compared to the transmitters required for cell and WiFi. If your phone is getting hot with WiFi and cell off then you're doing it wrong.
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I've found, I can watch movies all day long on my mini on wifi, running fore flight with wifi off, cell off (always is as I don't have cell service on it), Bluetooth off, it eats the battery faster than watching HD movies over wifi.
 
LDJones said:
For CFI, iPad Air 2. The larger size is much better when using it for instruction.
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Yep. They key is the mission. If you are using it for your own in-flight reference, the Mini might do the job. For pre and post-flight briefings, if you are using it in place of a whiteboard or to show pictures or videos, the larger screen might be a better choice.

I think answers to this question also deserve a description of what we actually use to give some basis for our recommendations. I currently use a full-size iPad 3rd Gen, WiFi only. Haven't used a cellular model since my first iPad more than 4 years ago, opting instead for an external GPS unit and eventually a combined external ADS-B/GPS. Haven't missed the lack of cellular capability or the internal GPS.
 
Henning said:
GPS takes power sir, more power than cell on standby. When the GPS in my iPhone6+ is on, the thing gets hot. That's not only indicative of a battery drain, it adds to overheat shut down problems.
Click to expand...


My iPhone 6+ never gets hot using GPS with ForeFlight, Google Maps, or Waze.


My iPad 2 with internal GPS will last 4 hour flights without an issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Captain said:
it's a receiver. It takes power, but very little compared to the transmitters required for cell and WiFi. If your phone is getting hot with WiFi and cell off then you're doing it wrong.
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Receivers have a transmitter to issue the carrier wave to receive. The signal it is trying to receive is very weak, so they make the carrier sucking it in strong.
 
Which one should you get if you dont care about GPS? (plane has two already).
 
coloradobluesky said:
Which one should you get if you dont care about GPS? (plane has two already).
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What else are you going to use it for? I have a hotspot plan on my phone so all I ever need is wifi. My iPad2 was wifi and my iPad Air2 is wifi, and there has not been one time in all those years I wished it was cellular, and I travel extensively.
 
Just VFR and IFR charts. Dont need GPS. Weather would be nice though. Spec it with and without weather.
 
Different viewpoint - go wifi only, lose the cellular; root your cell phone, tether the iPad to your cell phone. Or, pay Verizon, etc., the extra, if you don't want to fool around with your cell (you might brick it if you make a boo-boo),

External GPS far superior to the internal - not the Elf, though; Bluetooth Dual or Stratus, throw it up on the glare shield, no wires to muck about with.
 
PS
If you're alone in the plane most of the time, the full size iPad is fine; I'm usually in a 172, and have it in a rubberized case, laying on my kneeboard. Or on the seat next to me.

I'm thinking about velcro'ing it to the panel, one way or another. . .
 
Maybe, but how much does it cost? Might not be worth it. I know where I am. How much extra does it cost? I just need the charts.
 
Henning said:
Receivers have a transmitter to issue the carrier wave to receive. The signal it is trying to receive is very weak, so they make the carrier sucking it in strong.
Click to expand...

That is not how receivers work.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Just VFR and IFR charts. Dont need GPS. Weather would be nice though. Spec it with and without weather.
Click to expand...

Weather comes in via a Bluetooth link. I have full function GPS/ADS-B in/AHRS with a wifi iPad. Cellular is not usable for reliable weather.

For what you save on not getting cellular, you can buy the GPS w/ADS-B in and get weather and traffic.
 
I know where I am too, at a glance. I get all the pilotage stuff, and I can do that too, but I'm lazy. That whole making the least amount of work for myself makes flying more enjoyable.

There's a whole additional slew of benefits if you're using an ADSB/GPS receiver such as a Stratus 2S or similar.

Plus if the tablet has GPS and you lose it, at least in the case of Apple you can use an app to find its location:)
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I know where I am too, at a glance. I get all the pilotage stuff, and I can do that too, but I'm lazy. That whole making the least amount of work for myself makes flying more enjoyable.

There's a whole additional slew of benefits if you're using an ADSB/GPS receiver such as a Stratus 2S or similar.

Plus if the tablet has GPS and you lose it, at least in the case of Apple you can use an app to find its location:)
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Not necessary. The locating service 'find my iPhone' works on my wifi only iPad. They pick up physical addresses from wifi routers in view without having to log in to them I suspect.
 
Henning said:
Receivers have a transmitter to issue the carrier wave to receive. The signal it is trying to receive is very weak, so they make the carrier sucking it in strong.
Click to expand...

This is a load of horse**** and don't attempt to defend it. You're thinking of the local oscillator, which is small-signal and doesn't consume anywhere near the kind of power that the power amplifier in a transmitter does.

The weak signal is not pulled in by increasing the amplitude of the LO. That would do nothing to increase the SNR after heterodyning. The LNA and filter are responsible for the majority of the selectivity and reception. The fact that GPS uses BPSK, combined with the subframe sync pattern, make it very easy to receive in the face of noise. A simple limiter is all that is required to square up the IF and detect phase and correlation with the sync pattern is used to lock the PLL.

My handheld GPS can work continuously for nearly a full day on two AA batteries. It's not the GPS radio technology itself that is power hungry. Decoding the bitstream is CPU intensive and the power consumption of the processor comes into play.
 
Captain said:
That is not how receivers work.
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I have a friend who was a tech nerd before tech nerds were cool.

I remember it infuriated him when he saw an ad, for RCA antennas, I think, that boasted they could "Really pull in the signal!".

So it's a common, if incorrect, misunderstanding/misrepresentation.
 
It takes power to receive and process the signal. Your GPS runs on 2AA batteries for a day, that is 5 ampere hours of juice.
 
Henning said:
It takes power to receive and process the signal. Your GPS runs on 2AA batteries for a day, that is 5 ampere hours of juice.
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And 5Ah / 24h is about 200mA, the equivalent of 10 standard LEDs. So what?

You're not going to win your argument by claiming nonsense and stating trivia. There is no defensible reason I'm aware of that GPS has to consume more power than 3G or WiFi. The radio will certainly consume less power and the rest is dependent upon the system architecture, which apparently hasn't been measured on an iPad while FF is running.
 
I vote for the full size, there is bigger is better in screen size.

I have the wifi only and use a bad elf pro. it's reception is a lot better than the built in wifi. I have FO's that use the internal and they have trouble getting good signal because of the heated windshields, i don't even take the bad elf out of my flight bag sitting on the floor and get good reception. also, with the pro it has data logging so I can use it with my jetski, bike, hiking and later load it to the ipad to map those trips. I was amazed to find out that we walked 11 miles at universal studios one day.

bob
 
coloradobluesky said:
Which one should you get if you dont care about GPS? (plane has two already).
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I guess the answer to that is another question: why are you getting an iPad? What do you want to do with it? I'm decidedly omnistic when it comes to operating systems and hardware. My own choices in a tablet are based on the apps I want to use and how I want to use them.

For example, if all you care about is relatively static electronic charts with no in-flight location information or any of the other location-based in-flight information it gives you access to (moving map functionality, nearest airport information, automatically loaded taxi diagrams, and others), there are alternatives far less costly than an iPad. You can get that job done (and actually have GPS capability to boot) for less than $200 bucks for a good full-size Android tablet and less than $150 for a "mini."
 
coloradobluesky said:
Just VFR and IFR charts. Dont need GPS. Weather would be nice though. Spec it with and without weather.
Click to expand...

Not going to save you much money (under a hundred) and it's really going to limit the device, I'll wager 5 bucks you will wish you got the GPS iPad after a few months of use, between taxi diagrams with your current position, terrain view, cross check for inboard avionics, or the capabilities it gives you if you bring it into a no electrical Champ, the GPS makes a good chunk of the device.
 
As stated above, if a phone is getting hot on GPS alone it's a function of CPU heat maybe combined with direct sunlight. Nothing is being sent out to 'grab the signal'.
 
Captain said:
As stated above, if a phone is getting hot on GPS alone it's a function of CPU heat maybe combined with direct sunlight. Nothing is being sent out to 'grab the signal'.
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It's possible that the cellular radio (in many, it controls GPS, cell controller/baseband is generally separate from main CPU) is getting hot alone, but unlikely. CPU and sunlight are the most likely.
 
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