Need a mature market, as is developing - value is in what people will pay for it; needs to be in a real market, bid and ask, etc. No intrinsic value (Bitcoin), and a spec investment, vice a true currency. Likely we will have a true blockchain currency, used as a currency; likely won't be Bitcoin, however.
Investments
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denverpilot
Tied Down
I’ve not seen a local retail chain that would accept another country’s currency, nor bitcoin.
I’ve seen a few multinational online companies accept bitcoin directly as payment.
Not a single retailer who’s selling items necessary for human life, yet. I can’t buy groceries with it.
IRS considers it a private sale item, not even a commodity. If it were a commodity it would fall under very different tax rules.
Honest question: Why would any government want a blockchain traceable currency?
Our own government literally loaded pallets of cash into a transport to ship to another country to pay a debt, and has nearly no motivation whatsoever to allow their own expenditures of money to be tracked in a public ledger attached to the money.
“Oh look, this coin was once used to pay for a black ops mission after it bought us some nice crypto gear for NSA. The arms dealer then bought a share of the company I work for, and they paid my salary with it! Neat!”
Not going to happen. Ever. Government wants to see how citizens transact currency. They don’t want citizens to know how they do.
Not to mention blockchain is the dumbest possible way to create a currency anyway. “The Fed needs to add to the monetary supply, they’re going to build ten more data centers to mine blockchain crypto...”
LOL. Nope. Not happening. And most governments will easily make a blockchain currency go away if they really want it gone, they’ll just fine anyone using the horrendous amounts of electricity needed as the chain gets bigger claiming it’s an environmental disaster... which may actually be accurate.
Crypto currencies take a lot of continuous computing horsepower for literally nothing in return. Electric company lobbyists may push to keep them, though. Hahaha.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I’m still skeptical. Blockchain allows for making sure the translations aren’t falsified, but also requires ridiculous amounts of computing power to accomplish it, which grows continually for less reward. Which means cost per transaction continually rises. Other trusted ledger systems (banks) provide this service nearly free.
1RTK1
Pattern Altitude
School me in how this can takse horrendous amounts of energy, I'm clueless
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
It's all about the processing power. Think of mining for bitcoin as trying to figure out the combination of a safe that has a dial that reads from 0 to a 1,000,000 and requires a 50 digit combination to open it. Your processors are basically the fingers trying to turn the dial in the right sequence millions and millions of times over. The faster your fingers can turn the dial (processing power) the faster you can come up with the right combination. All this takes enormous amounts of energy just as if you were physically sitting at a safe and turning the dial yourself as fast as your fingers would allow you.
I guess that's a simple way to explain it.
1RTK1
Pattern Altitude
Makes sense, so you gain bitcoin by mining it? The more you mine the more you can steal/find? Kinda like free money?
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
You can either mine it or buy it... your choice. You're not stealing unless you can hack (which many people do) in to somebody's wallet. When mining, the "combinations" were already pre-programmed in to the algos by the originator. Nowadays the processing power required to unlock those combinations is getting pretty intense. Most people are cloud mining and have formed alliances where they combine their resources for a little piece of the pie. For me it's not worth it anymore.
1RTK1
Pattern Altitude
Got it, thanks
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's the key about it, if your wallet is not secure, it can be hacked and stolen. If you protect the info in your wallet, your bitcoin is virtually unstealable.
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
That's why if you're smart you keep your "own" wallet on a server, backup drive, etc. that's not connected to the internet. Not on somebody else's network.
There was a major hack just a few weeks ago where an "exchange" lost several million in bitcoin. Sucks to be them.
The comment a few posts back, about blockchain currencies such as Bitcoin being "trusted ledgers" is a good description, a good way to think about it; your "balance" is secured, unless you get sloppy. US currency has credibility, and while the coins and bills have no real intrinsic value, they are accepted in markets as a medium of exchange, and are "trusted". When not exchanged in a physical sense (when you pay by check or an electronic means), and you rely on your bank to accurately account for your money and make payments as you direct, US currency (or any other currency) has credibility and broad acceptance.
Currency values fluctuate in markets, and are affected by inflation, and political factors - but there are buyers and sellers in traditional currency markets; yen, dollars, francs - someone is always buying or selling. And there are accountability laws for banks and financial institutions.
Blockchain/Bitcoins are mostly not "real" currency right now - they are speculative investments, and while they too can vary in price, like "real" currency, the market is more-or-less unregulated right now, and absent a real exchange, a place where blockchain currency could be "shorted", for example, the future value is very much guesswork; you need a place where buyers and sellers can interact as they do with other investments.
Not a lot of places to "spend" Bitcoins right now for the average consumers; you can buy and sell them, of course, but I think of it as a wildly speculative gamble.
Currency values fluctuate in markets, and are affected by inflation, and political factors - but there are buyers and sellers in traditional currency markets; yen, dollars, francs - someone is always buying or selling. And there are accountability laws for banks and financial institutions.
Blockchain/Bitcoins are mostly not "real" currency right now - they are speculative investments, and while they too can vary in price, like "real" currency, the market is more-or-less unregulated right now, and absent a real exchange, a place where blockchain currency could be "shorted", for example, the future value is very much guesswork; you need a place where buyers and sellers can interact as they do with other investments.
Not a lot of places to "spend" Bitcoins right now for the average consumers; you can buy and sell them, of course, but I think of it as a wildly speculative gamble.
It's very speculative, nobody has ever seen anything quite like it and nobody really knows where it will go. As long as people keep exchanging it for real money it will keep growing but the bottom could fall out at any time. Granted that seems a lot less likely now than it did a year or two ago...
And I really really wish back in the beginning when I first heard about it on a technology podcast I'd gone ahead and set up a few mining rigs. Now the mining is a lot more difficult and isn't as lucrative. Who knew?
Anyway right now it has two uses- buying illicit stuff and something that can be exchanged for real money. A handful of places take it but for the most part I think one would want to exchange it for $
And I really really wish back in the beginning when I first heard about it on a technology podcast I'd gone ahead and set up a few mining rigs. Now the mining is a lot more difficult and isn't as lucrative. Who knew?
Anyway right now it has two uses- buying illicit stuff and something that can be exchanged for real money. A handful of places take it but for the most part I think one would want to exchange it for $
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
You can trade GBTC right now.
Many more companies/exchanges are now jumping on the bandwagon as we speak.
I'd heard that was in the works; but for me now isn't the time to gamble - blockchain has a lot of potential uses outside crypto currency; and not sure Bitcoin is the best bet in crypto currency.You can trade GBTC right now.
Many more companies/exchanges are now jumping on the bandwagon as we speak.
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
denverpilot
Tied Down
This is a good video on how cryptocurrencies work.
You can trade GBTC right now.
Many more companies/exchanges are now jumping on the bandwagon as we speak.
That’s a derivative. You’re trading bitcoin futures, not bitcoin. Big difference.
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
Doesn't matter, you're still trading on the movement of bitcoin. Just like I may trade on the movement of oil or corn without holding the actual commodity.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Doesn't matter, you're still trading on the movement of bitcoin. Just like I may trade on the movement of oil or corn without holding the actual commodity.
But it didn’t address the problem you were responding to.
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
denverpilot
Tied Down
I didn't know I was addressing a "problem".
You quoted @Sundancer — do you need me to quote him again or can you scroll up?
Shopshirt
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Shopshirt
Point taken...My intent wasn't to say that I could physically walk into a retailer in another country with USD and pay for over the counter items. I was looking at it from an online standpoint. I can buy something online in USD from a retailer in the UK or Germany. The currency conversion takes place almost seamlessly. With the exception of only a few vendors, if I wanted to use bitcoin to purchase something from an online retailer I would have to cash out the bitcoin into a national currency then place my order so the value is still tied to what ever national currency you decided to trade in.
On a tongue in cheek note would Bitcoin be the favored currency of PT Barnum?
denverpilot
Tied Down
I think PT Barnum would love that Hollywood is milking people for money with a movie that makes him look like a nice guy. Only thing he’d like better is if he got a portion of the revenues.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think PT Barnum would love that Hollywood is milking people for money with a movie that makes him look like a nice guy. Only thing he’d like better is if he got a portion of the revenues.
I paid 6 bucks a ticket to see Jumanji on super Tuesday night...... unfortunately the fire alarm went off about 10 minutes before the end, first time I've seen a theatre evacuate, it was pretty interesting, everyone behaved well.
bflynn
Final Approach
Slight necro, but rather than start a new thread....
Found this today - chart comparing bitcoin prices to the tulip bulb mania. The chart is a little old and keep in mind that bitcoin is down in the 8k range at the moment, it's been in the 6k range recently. I'm telling you, if you hurry, you can use your bitcoin to buy some nice tulip bulbs...if the merchants will take it. Who wants to accept "currency" that might be worth half in a week?
Bitcoin is roughly 2/5ths of it's high. The last time it was this low was...November.
Found this today - chart comparing bitcoin prices to the tulip bulb mania. The chart is a little old and keep in mind that bitcoin is down in the 8k range at the moment, it's been in the 6k range recently. I'm telling you, if you hurry, you can use your bitcoin to buy some nice tulip bulbs...if the merchants will take it. Who wants to accept "currency" that might be worth half in a week?
Bitcoin is roughly 2/5ths of it's high. The last time it was this low was...November.