Interesting C172 Approaches into St Barth's

WakeNCAgent

WakeNCAgent

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I found a couple videos by the same poster on YouTube capturing two different landings at St Barth's; one to Rwy 10 the other to 28. I found it interesting that in both videos you can distinctly hear the stall warning on more than one occasion during the approach. In the first video I expected to see a recovery the sound was so pronounced.

I don't know about you, but I don't like to hear the kazoo when I'm 500' or less above mountainous terrain. When you watch the other video, it appears that he landed with a pretty strong quartering tailwind into what is already a challenging approach (2119'x59').

Rwy 10 Approach
Rwy 28 Approach
 
I noticed the wind sock in the second video, not sure why he was landing in what looked to be a considerable tailwind on a short runway with terrain all over the place. Interesting.
 
I'd love to land there someday. I heard you need special training to land there. Wonder if that's what is going on there.
 
What are your control inputs on a quartering tailwind? It seemed he had very little leftward drift (video 2) and he landed on the downwind main gear first. I agree the sock looked like a fair bit of tailwind, could that have been a bit of parallax?

I also wonder about landing on a left downwind over all the terrain versus coming in over the bay. Great vids regardless.

He has another vid with a different angle here where you can see his IAS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO0GbSxylBA
 
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WakeNCAgent said:
I found a couple videos by the same poster on YouTube capturing two different landings at St Barth's; one to Rwy 10 the other to 28. I found it interesting that in both videos you can distinctly hear the stall warning on more than one occasion during the approach. In the first video I expected to see a recovery the sound was so pronounced.

I don't know about you, but I don't like to hear the kazoo when I'm 500' or less above mountainous terrain. When you watch the other video, it appears that he landed with a pretty strong quartering tailwind into what is already a challenging approach (2119'x59').

Rwy 10 Approach
Rwy 28 Approach
Click to expand...


I don't mind hearing the stall horn on approach at all.
 
If you know your airplane it's not a big deal. The horn on my 172 would go off 10 knots before I stalled, so I had plenty of margin if I was right on the edge of the horn.
 
WakeNCAgent said:
I guess. Margin of safety IS a bit overrated.
Click to expand...

Ever practice slow flight? The stall warning should be on the whole time. If banner tow planes had stall horns they would drive you insane. As long as the plane is not in buffet, it's not at risk. As long as one has altitude they re trying to lose, even buffet is not a major risk. Learn the bottom of the envelope and you are quite safe operating there.
 
St Barts is a cool place, we spend 10 days there every year. Awesome airport :)
 
Probably those videos were taken when he was doing the checkout. You have to do 10 landings (to a full stop). 6 dual and 4 solos and those have to include a landing on runway 28 and one go around (28 also).

If you have the oportunity, go there and get endorsed. Its an amazing experience.

Did I mentioned the amazing food and the topless girls?????........:rofl::rofl::rofl:

If anybody is interested I will provide the instructor info.
 
Henning said:
Ever practice slow flight? The stall warning should be on the whole time. If banner tow planes had stall horns they would drive you insane. As long as the plane is not in buffet, it's not at risk. As long as one has altitude they re trying to lose, even buffet is not a major risk. Learn the bottom of the envelope and you are quite safe operating there.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. Slow flight is a training exercise, not a preparation for approaching the runway or preparing you to tow banners. Besides, that's a poor analogy given their safety record. If there is no risk, then why have an alert system such as the stall warning horn? I doubt that a stick shaker on approach would be acceptable practice in any professional environment.

I may practice the bottom of the envelope but I do so at a safe altitude. I would never attempt it close to the ground, near rising terrain with a significant and turbulent wind.
 
WakeNCAgent said:
I respectfully disagree. Slow flight is a training exercise, not a preparation for approaching the runway or preparing you to tow banners. Besides, that's a poor analogy given their safety record. If there is no risk, then why have an alert system such as the stall warning horn? I doubt that a stick shaker on approach would be acceptable practice in any professional environment.

I may practice the bottom of the envelope but I do so at a safe altitude. I would never attempt it close to the ground, near rising terrain with a significant and turbulent wind.
Click to expand...

Slow flight is training to handle the low end of the speed envelope, where you should be operating approaching the runway. Banner towing isn't particularly dangerous.
 
WakeNCAgent said:
I found it interesting that in both videos you can distinctly hear the stall warning on more than one occasion during the approach. In the first video I expected to see a recovery the sound was so pronounced.

I don't know about you, but I don't like to hear the kazoo when I'm 500' or less above mountainous terrain. When you watch the other video, it appears that he landed with a pretty strong quartering tailwind into what is already a challenging approach (2119'x59').
Click to expand...

I'm with Henning, I didn't find the stall horn particularly alarming. It's pretty normal to hear it chirping, particularly if there's turbulence. If you fly so fast that the horn doesn't go off, you will easily run off the far end of the runway.
 
WakeNCAgent said:
I respectfully disagree. Slow flight is a training exercise, not a preparation for approaching the runway or preparing you to tow banners. Besides, that's a poor analogy given their safety record. If there is no risk, then why have an alert system such as the stall warning horn? I doubt that a stick shaker on approach would be acceptable practice in any professional environment.

I may practice the bottom of the envelope but I do so at a safe altitude. I would never attempt it close to the ground, near rising terrain with a significant and turbulent wind.
Click to expand...

Guys,
Trust me... At St Barths you are at the bottom of the envelope....
 
Pretty cool videos..hopefully one day I can experience that airport in person.
I hesitate to respond here since I am a low time pilot and new to this board but something extraterrestrial is pulling at my wheel pants to answer.

Just this past year I have had the stall horn chirp on two approaches at mackinaw island three approaches at ktvc (traverse city) two approaches at ludington and once at beaver island. All from wind shear or gusts and every time I was at least 10 knots above normal approach speed and with only 1/3 flaps on approach. And only once I had to fire wall the throttle to keep from taking out the approach lights (25kt head wind went to 25kt tail wind in ktvc 100ft above touch down). And none of these airports have the mountains near what st Barthes has, only the water and wind shifts.

So it all looked pretty normal to me, but maybe I am too green to see the dangers of approach speeds. Am I missing somthing?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
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MyassisDragon said:
Pretty cool videos..hopefully one day I can experience that airport in person.
I hesitate to respond here since I am a low time pilot and new to this board but something extraterrestrial is pulling at my wheel pants to answer.

Just this past year I have had the stall horn chirp on two approaches at mackinaw island three approaches at ktvc (traverse city) two approaches at ludington and once at beaver island. All from wind shear or gusts and every time I was at least 10 knots above normal approach speed and with only 1/3 flaps on approach. And only once I had to fire wall the throttle to keep from taking out the approach lights (25kt head wind went to 25kt tail wind in ktvc). And none of these airports have the mountains near what st Barthes has, only the water and wind shifts.

So it all looked pretty normal to me, but maybe I am too green to see the dangers of approach speeds. Am I missing somthing?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

Nope, nothing missing; however I'd like to ask you why you used reduced flaps and what you think flaps do to lift, ie do you think you get more lift with 1/3rd flaps or with full flaps?
 
May be a little following my instruction without completely understanding all the dynamics of lift involved (YET). But during my ifr training I always set my flaps to 1/3 for stabilized approach (this was on a AA5B, so that was 3 seconds of actuation) This was just over first notch on a cessna and still gave good aileron and rudder control without causing too much drag. but my biggest reason was to keep speed up on final during shifty wind (1/2 the wind -gust when I could). But when ever I feel wind shift around big bodies of water i reduce flaps and keep speed up on final just in case the headwind changes to tailwind.

What I do know is if I tried coming over the numbers full flap at low approach speed I would had a few bad encounters already.... Still learning though....

Guess I could try full flap and increased power to keep speed up with the increased drag but that narrows my options with wind shear if I have to power up? Now you have me questioning my limited knowledge....uuughhh

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
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Looks like fun. The runway 28 pattern seems kind of like flying a pylon course, where you use the terrain as the pylons. It actually seems like it would be even easier this way to fly the pattern because you have the terrain guiding you. The big issue I'm sure is wind shear and turbulence. I wonder what speed winds there are a no go decision?

The runway 10 approach seems straight forward... except that hill on short final! I wonder if the locals have ever considered carving that hill away to make a better approach? Here's an idea, carve away the hill to make a more normal approach to runway 10 and then take that dirt and put it in the bay so you could extend the length of the runway. If you could make that a 3000' runway, maybe you could get more people in.

I don't know the economy of St. Barth's but I would guess it's about 90% tourism. They may be full to capacity now, I don't know. I doubt very much that the locals would want an expanded runway and more tourists unless they are desperate.
 
I don't understand why the 28 approach would be over terrain. Seems like there would be lots of windshear, frequent obscuration, and the occasional structure. Why not approach over the bay?
 
Dav8or said:
Looks like fun. The runway 28 pattern seems kind of like flying a pylon course, where you use the terrain as the pylons. It actually seems like it would be even easier this way to fly the pattern because you have the terrain guiding you. The big issue I'm sure is wind shear and turbulence. I wonder what speed winds there are a no go decision?

The runway 10 approach seems straight forward... except that hill on short final! I wonder if the locals have ever considered carving that hill away to make a better approach? Here's an idea, carve away the hill to make a more normal approach to runway 10 and then take that dirt and put it in the bay so you could extend the length of the runway. If you could make that a 3000' runway, maybe you could get more people in.

I don't know the economy of St. Barth's but I would guess it's about 90% tourism. They may be full to capacity now, I don't know. I doubt very much that the locals would want an expanded runway and more tourists unless they are desperate.
Click to expand...

I'm no local, but I spend 10 or 11 days there a year, and I can tell you no one really wants larger planes going in there :) there is also no jet traffic :)

It's as close to perfect as it gets.
 
Zhunter said:
I'm no local, but I spend 10 or 11 days there a year, and I can tell you no one really wants larger planes going in there :) there is also no jet traffic :)

It's as close to perfect as it gets.
Click to expand...

Yep, one of the few places where jet soot doesn't settle on the yacht every day.
 
It looks like right hand traffic over the bay to 28 would be easy... And save all the people in the houses some noise from such low traffic on the over terrain approach.
Looked like fun
 
Jeanie said:
It looks like right hand traffic over the bay to 28 would be easy... And save all the people in the houses some noise from such low traffic on the over terrain approach.
Looked like fun
Click to expand...

WinAir and the other commercials do com in on a right arc to approach 28, all over water. Very seldom is 28 used, normally 10
 
MyassisDragon said:
May be a little following my instruction without completely understanding all the dynamics of lift involved (YET). But during my ifr training I always set my flaps to 1/3 for stabilized approach (this was on a AA5B, so that was 3 seconds of actuation) This was just over first notch on a cessna and still gave good aileron and rudder control without causing too much drag.
Click to expand...

Tiger flaps don't do much for lift. If you check the POH you only get 3 knots stall improvement ... they're mainly for approach angle.
 
WakeNCAgent said:
I guess. Margin of safety IS a bit overrated.
Click to expand...

Margin of safety has to with energy management and pilot skill, not necessarily some specific number on the ASI. It's a fallacy to think in simple terms such as "X" airspeed above stall = margin of safety. Lots of pilots seem to feel this way, as evidenced by their 70KT powered approaches flying solo laps around the pattern in a 172. And depending on how the stall horn is calibrated, you could be well above the actual stall. Lots of skilled pilots approach safely in the 1.1Vso airspeed range. Not necessarily for the renter pilot who flies an hour a month, if that.
 
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What safety is added by flying slow enough to hear the stall warning before you're on short final? I'm not recommended he land with excess speed but a little more speed when he was maneuvering over the hills wouldn't have hurt.
 
noobJohn said:
What safety is added by flying slow enough to hear the stall warning before you're on short final? I'm not recommended he land with excess speed but a little more speed when he was maneuvering over the hills wouldn't have hurt.
Click to expand...

He wasn't slow, he was getting chirps from turbulence.
 
I rewatched the 2nd video, you're likely right. Turbulence is easier to feel than to see in a video. One chirp corresponded to a a nose higher moment but that could have been the result of a gust followed by a lull.

Henning said:
He wasn't slow, he was getting chirps from turbulence.
Click to expand...
 
It seems that a lot of these questions come down to experience in a given aircraft. The approach over the water, in a 172 seems like a Ho hummer. Over the hill, I would want someone with me a couple of times. The stall warning chirping again comes down to time in a particular airplane. High time, you just block it out as you simply know what the airplane is doing. 2200 foot runway in a 172 is not much of a cliff hanger, especially on the water approach. We have an arrow star often operating out of a local airport, 2200 ft. Also a turbo commander. Both pilots are very high time in each model. Airport has good approaches.
 
noobJohn said:
I rewatched the 2nd video, you're likely right. Turbulence is easier to feel than to see in a video. One chirp corresponded to a a nose higher moment but that could have been the result of a gust followed by a lull.
Click to expand...

An updraft will also chirp it.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
It seems that a lot of these questions come down to experience in a given aircraft. The approach over the water, in a 172 seems like a Ho hummer. Over the hill, I would want someone with me a couple of times. The stall warning chirping again comes down to time in a particular airplane. High time, you just block it out as you simply know what the airplane is doing. 2200 foot runway in a 172 is not much of a cliff hanger, especially on the water approach. We have an arrow star often operating out of a local airport, 2200 ft. Also a turbo commander. Both pilots are very high time in each model. Airport has good approaches.
Click to expand...

Aerostar...;)
 
Aerostar for sure. I believe it is an unpressurized model and not a superstar. He has done this over the last 20 years, airport is OW3.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Aerostar for sure. I believe it is an unpressurized model and not a superstar. He has done this over the last 20 years, airport is OW3.
Click to expand...

They were all Aerostar from the factory, IIrC the 600 was the unpressurized variant. The Superstar is an aftermarket conversion.
 
Henning said:
Ever practice slow flight? The stall warning should be on the whole time. If banner tow planes had stall horns they would drive you insane. As long as the plane is not in buffet, it's not at risk. As long as one has altitude they re trying to lose, even buffet is not a major risk. Learn the bottom of the envelope and you are quite safe operating there.
Click to expand...
This.
WakeNCAgent said:
I respectfully disagree. Slow flight is a training exercise, not a preparation for approaching the runway or preparing you to tow banners. Besides, that's a poor analogy given their safety record. If there is no risk, then why have an alert system such as the stall warning horn? I doubt that a stick shaker on approach would be acceptable practice in any professional environment.

I may practice the bottom of the envelope but I do so at a safe altitude. I would never attempt it close to the ground, near rising terrain with a significant and turbulent wind.
Click to expand...

Henning said:
Slow flight is training to handle the low end of the speed envelope, where you should be operating approaching the runway. Banner towing isn't particularly dangerous.
Click to expand...
And once again. +1

There was nothing dangerous about this approach. It looked just fine to me and I would love to land there and get checked out.
 
Cmercado said:
Probably those videos were taken when he was doing the checkout. You have to do 10 landings (to a full stop). 6 dual and 4 solos and those have to include a landing on runway 28 and one go around (28 also).

If you have the oportunity, go there and get endorsed. Its an amazing experience.

Did I mentioned the amazing food and the topless girls?????........:rofl::rofl::rofl:

If anybody is interested I will provide the instructor info.
Click to expand...

I just returned from St. Barths (arrived by ferry) and am now slightly obsessed with the idea of flying there. Can you pass on the instructor info?

I'd also love to know what anyone thinks of taking a Mooney Encore in there. I just worked through a landing roll calculation. I used the following:

- 30 degrees C (it's usually a few degrees cooler but it can get this high)
- Half fuel (I'd likely have much less if coming from FL or Bahamas)
- Weight for myself and my gf plus luggage
- 8kts headwind (the sock was fully extended every time I saw it on this trip, which should be at least 15kts)

I get 1120ft stopping distance. That seems pretty safe inside the 1650 usable, as long as I get practice and instruction. Thoughts?
 
As long as my stall warning is going off, I know it's working.
 
nickmatic said:
I just returned from St. Barths (arrived by ferry) and am now slightly obsessed with the idea of flying there. Can you pass on the instructor info?

I'd also love to know what anyone thinks of taking a Mooney Encore in there. I just worked through a landing roll calculation. I used the following:

- 30 degrees C (it's usually a few degrees cooler but it can get this high)
- Half fuel (I'd likely have much less if coming from FL or Bahamas)
- Weight for myself and my gf plus luggage
- 8kts headwind (the sock was fully extended every time I saw it on this trip, which should be at least 15kts)

I get 1120ft stopping distance. That seems pretty safe inside the 1650 usable, as long as I get practice and instruction. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

His name is Yves Blanchet. Phone number is +590 690 675 638. Email is megblt@orange.fr.

Enjoy the checkout. You will have a blast!!
 
WakeNCAgent said:
I found a couple videos by the same poster on YouTube capturing two different landings at St Barth's; one to Rwy 10 the other to 28. I found it interesting that in both videos you can distinctly hear the stall warning on more than one occasion during the approach. In the first video I expected to see a recovery the sound was so pronounced.

I don't know about you, but I don't like to hear the kazoo when I'm 500' or less above mountainous terrain. When you watch the other video, it appears that he landed with a pretty strong quartering tailwind into what is already a challenging approach (2119'x59').
Click to expand...

Both chirps on the first approach appeared to be due to turbulence. No big deal at all, looked fine to me - I'm sure he had plenty of margin above an actual stall. Those transient chirps are simply due to updrafts momentarily increasing the angle of attack.

That type of turbulence is pretty common in the warmer climates like that - If he flew the approach fast enough that the stall warning never went off, he almost certainly would end up going off the end of the runway.

Looks like some good flying to me! :)
 
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