Interesting C172 Approaches into St Barth's

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd also love to know what anyone thinks of taking a Mooney Encore in there. I just worked through a landing roll calculation. I used the following:

- 30 degrees C (it's usually a few degrees cooler but it can get this high)
- Half fuel (I'd likely have much less if coming from FL or Bahamas)
- Weight for myself and my gf plus luggage
- 8kts headwind (the sock was fully extended every time I saw it on this trip, which should be at least 15kts)

I get 1120ft stopping distance. That seems pretty safe inside the 1650 usable, as long as I get practice and instruction. Thoughts?

Do lots of short-field practice elsewhere first.

Do you have speed brakes?

I fly an Ovation - I landed at a field in the Bahamas last year that was around 2000 feet. Should have been OK according to performance charts, but it was probably my scariest landing ever - There was a road at the end of the runway at an angle to the runway, and I had to make the turn onto the road to avoid going into the drink.

A few things came together to cause it: Winds at pattern altitude were opposite winds on the ground, and there was no windsock or other obvious indication of that. Since then, I now have reason to believe my ASI may read a bit fast. And, there was very poor traction on the runway. So, that means I ended up with an airspeed a few knots too fast AND a tailwind and poor braking effectiveness. It was not fun.

I'm spoiled by all the nicely paved 3000+ foot runways in the CONUS... Next time I'll do some more short field practice first and a low pass or three to have a better idea of surface winds and conditions.

But looking at St. Barts, I probably wouldn't try it in a Mooney without speed brakes - That's a pretty steep approach angle for a slick airplane to keep from speeding up.

I hope it works out for you, let us know how it goes!

 

[nickmatic]

Do lots of short-field practice elsewhere first.

Do you have speed brakes?

I fly an Ovation - I landed at a field in the Bahamas last year that was around 2000 feet. Should have been OK according to performance charts, but it was probably my scariest landing ever - There was a road at the end of the runway at an angle to the runway, and I had to make the turn onto the road to avoid going into the drink.

A few things came together to cause it: Winds at pattern altitude were opposite winds on the ground, and there was no windsock or other obvious indication of that. Since then, I now have reason to believe my ASI may read a bit fast. And, there was very poor traction on the runway. So, that means I ended up with an airspeed a few knots too fast AND a tailwind and poor braking effectiveness. It was not fun.

I'm spoiled by all the nicely paved 3000+ foot runways in the CONUS... Next time I'll do some more short field practice first and a low pass or three to have a better idea of surface winds and conditions.

But looking at St. Barts, I probably wouldn't try it in a Mooney without speed brakes - That's a pretty steep approach angle for a slick airplane to keep from speeding up.

I hope it works out for you, let us know how it goes!

Thanks for the feedback. Good points. It's probably the kind of thing that's doable if the conditions are right, but it's super important to know the conditions on the ground before attempting. Dry runway, constant good headwind. Fortunately, Anguilla and even St. Martin are just a couple minutes away with nice long runways if needed.

I do have speedbreaks, and I'd imagine using them would be imperative. I already use them a lot as it is.

I've practiced the St. Barths approach in a Piper Warrior on X-Plane a few times now. Definitely critical to use proper short-field technique, but once I got familiar with the approach, slowing way down on final before the peak of the hill gets me stopped at the middle of the runway each time. Trying to find a good Mooney implementation for X-Plane...

I'll probably start with the Bahamas first to see how it goes

 

[mtuomi]

What are the landing fees like in St. Barths? Or the Caribbean in general?

 

[midlifeflyer]

What are your control inputs on a quartering tailwind?

That's an excellent question and the reason I've tried to land with students at least once with a quartering tailwind.

In the air, they are pretty much the same as a front quartering wind. The crab portion is still a crab against the drift. Whether a right quartering wind is from the front or the back, the drifting tendency is still to the left., so you need to correct to the right.

Same for the slip portion (whether early or late). All the rudder is doing in any crosswind situation is turning the longitudinal access so it is aligned with the runway.

The trick comes in on roll-out. In any crosswind landing, rollout consists of moving the controls from the crosswind control position you used for alignment in the air to the control position for a crosswind taxi. With a frontal crosswind, the crosswind aileron position for taxi is in the same direction as it was in the air. With a rear crosswind, it will be opposite.

 

[midlifeflyer]

But looking at St. Barts, I probably wouldn't try it in a Mooney without speed brakes - That's a pretty steep approach angle for a slick airplane to keep from speeding up.

OTOH, many years ago, before I learned how to fly, my wife and I flew into St Barths from St Martin in a 6-passenger low wing commuter. I was lucky enough to get to sit in the right seat.

Anyway we landed and the pilot comfortably turned off at that second taxiway without having to back taxi.

One of the rocking chair crowd pointed to the airplane was we walked into the "terminal" and asked, "Did you just come in on that?" "Yes," I replied. "Best pilot in the Caribbean," was his comment.

Truth is, once you get past book numbers, it's a lot about what you get used to. I'm in a flying club now that would require me to get special permission to fly one of their airplanes into an airport that was one my home base because the runway is "too short".

 

[nickmatic]

OTOH, many years ago, before I learned how to fly, my wife and I flew into St Barths from St Martin in a 6-passenger low wing commuter. I was lucky enough to get to sit in the right seat.

Anyway we landed and the pilot comfortably turned off at that second taxiway without having to back taxi.

One of the rocking chair crowd pointed to the airplane was we walked into the "terminal" and asked, "Did you just come in on that?" "Yes," I replied. "Best pilot in the Caribbean," was his comment.

Truth is, once you get past book numbers, it's a lot about what you get used to. I'm in a flying club now that would require me to get special permission to fly one of their airplanes into an airport that was one my home base because the runway is "too short".

Yup, I watched a lot of large planes land there and they all stopped with plenty of space. No substitute for experience and practice!

 

[Dav8or]

Nick-

Maybe try these things prior to St. Barths.

1. Get an AoA indicator. This is exactly the mission where I believe they would be super helpful
2. Practice at home at a non towered field with longer runway and visually mark off where 2000 ft would be. Fly it at the same TPA as St. Barths. Make short approaches just to make it tougher.
3. Try it on a day when it's turbulent and windy. My guess is, it's like that a lot on the St. Barths approach.
4. Try it without speed brakes too.

If you start nailing these landings every time, go right on down to St. Barths and have fun!

 

[Henning]

Do lots of short-field practice elsewhere first.

Do you have speed brakes?

I fly an Ovation - I landed at a field in the Bahamas last year that was around 2000 feet. Should have been OK according to performance charts, but it was probably my scariest landing ever - There was a road at the end of the runway at an angle to the runway, and I had to make the turn onto the road to avoid going into the drink.

A few things came together to cause it: Winds at pattern altitude were opposite winds on the ground, and there was no windsock or other obvious indication of that. Since then, I now have reason to believe my ASI may read a bit fast. And, there was very poor traction on the runway. So, that means I ended up with an airspeed a few knots too fast AND a tailwind and poor braking effectiveness. It was not fun.

I'm spoiled by all the nicely paved 3000+ foot runways in the CONUS... Next time I'll do some more short field practice first and a low pass or three to have a better idea of surface winds and conditions.

But looking at St. Barts, I probably wouldn't try it in a Mooney without speed brakes - That's a pretty steep approach angle for a slick airplane to keep from speeding up.

I hope it works out for you, let us know how it goes!

Last I flew one, a Mooney slipped just fine.

 

[Dav8or]

Last I flew one, a Mooney slipped just fine.

They do. I slip mine all the time. Slipping and speed brakes are sort of different though. I'd love to have speed brakes, but I don't think I'll be paying for them.

 

[Henning]

They do. I slip mine all the time. Slipping and speed brakes are sort of different though. I'd love to have speed brakes, but I don't think I'll be paying for them.

Different ways to achieve the same effect. Hug the hill on the way down and kick in a bit of slip to keep your speed down and you won't have a problem coming into St Barths.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Some years ago, when wages and jobs were much better, there were three mooney owners at the local airport. One afternoon they had a landing contest, flying full stop landings, winner bought lunch. The approach was similar to the water approach mentioned here. The results were jaw dropping. ( no speed brakes involved.) they all did well but one stood out. He had a lot of hours and a lot were in the mooney. He touched down on the numbers every time and used less than half of the 2200 foot runway. (No AOA either. ) he was the one that later flew an aerostar into this same field many times. Some have the touch, some don't. He would have had no problem going into st. Barths in his mooney in either direction.