Intercept leads to hard landing at KLOM

nauga said:
There have been lots of studies of the effects of distractions in the cockpit. Just because this one fits a popular agenda does not make it any less the responsibility of the pilot in command to maintain control of the aircraft in the presence of distractions.
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Very true. But my point here is that a rational way to make public policy is to consider the intended benefit of having the TFRs and their actual costs. It has nothing to do with placing blame on anyone.
 
eman1200 said:
Yep, blame the TFR. Always someone or something else to blame for one’s stupidity.
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These byzantine levels of protection offered to what are basically easily replaceable old ( and sometime senile ) men are quite obscene considering that we are talking here about a republic and not a late Roman Empire…
 
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Warmi said:
These byzantine levelsof protection offered to what are basically easily replaceable old ( and sometime senile ) men are quite obscene considering that we are talking here about a republic and not a late Roman Empire…
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true or not, it's irrelevant. if you're going to fly, you need to adhere whether you like rules or not.
 
luvflyin said:
Gonna be blunt here. If it flusters someone to the point of not being able to land safely they don't belong in the air and should find a new hobby. For their and others sake.
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But it’s not n the ACS, so we can’t test it.
 
geezer said:
Not a TFR event, but.....

It was a perfect day for flying, and my wife asked if we might go for a lunch at Easton Newnam airport. I checked the schedule of the plane, scheduled it, and I called for a weather briefing, and filed my secure code flight plan. Those have a significand delay in approval, so we drove to the airport to pick it up.

Perfect flight to Easton, lunch was as good as expected, and my wife told me that flying around the DC area was not as bad as I had been complaining.

I had filed the return trip with the original, so picked it up by phone, as required, with the customary secure code exchange. Preflight found no problems, good runup, and we were on our way.

Still a perfect day.

Cessna 1234c, VFR approved flight plan (Filed on the ground, by phone, and verified) request permission to enter the ADIZ.

Cessna 1234c, remain clear of the ADIZ. Do not call again
Woops, something is wrong.

Piper 1234p, requests permission to enter the ADIZ

Piper 1234p, remain clear of the ADIZ, do not call again.

Bonanza 1234b, request permission to enter the ADIZ.

Bonanza 1234b, remain clear of the ADIZ, do not call again.

So now there are 3 of us circling on the east side of the Chesapeake bay, no explanation, no estimated time until we might be allowed in. Time from first to last radio call, about 10 minutes.


Cessna xxxx, , there is a military aircraft dangerously close beside me, what is going on?

Cessna xxxx, you are in the ADIZ without clearance. change your feequency to -----, and follow the directions given to you.

We are now a quarter of an hour into this hold east of Bay Bridge airport.

Cessna 1234c, what WAS your destination


Cessna 1234c, filed to KCGS, College Park.

Cessna 1234c, fly direct to Tipton, no turns, and land. Contact Homeland Security there.

We turned on course to Tipton, by estimate, as we were navigating by old fashioned paper charts.

The other two planes received similar commands, different airports. Failure to exactly follow those commands results in a formation flight with a military helicopter.

Arriving at Tipton, we taxied to the main FBO, and shut down. In the office, they knew nothing of any Homeland Security personnel at Tipton.

Walking to the second FBO, I stopped at a traffic cone for a pot hole, and placed my small pocket knife under it.

The second FBO also was unaware of any Homeland Security presence on the field, but called them to find out. They were informed that an Officer had just been detailed to Tipton for a search of a possible terrorist aircraft, do not allow it to leave,

Eventually she arrived from BWI, in her personal car, parked in the employees parking lot, a shuttle bus ride to get it. She searched both my wife and myself with a magnetic wand, and I had to takeoff everything that caused a ring, such as my belt with metal buckle. Search completed, I recovered my keys, belt, etc, and escorted her to the Cessna 172. There, she thoroughly inspected everything on board, including the individual contents of my flight case. She then instructed me to have a piece of paper ready to write down my secure code for my flight plan to Collège Park It is now more than an hour since we called for permission to enter the ADIZ.

The code was given to her verbally, repeated to us, we wrote it down and read it back, and confirmed.

When she closed her conversation with security, I asked to borrow her phone to file the required new flight plan.

NO! THIS IS FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY! She then stalked off to her car, and drove away.

When she was out of sight, I recovered my pen knife, walked to the second FBO (They had been friendlier), and used their phone to file the new plan, WITH THE MILITARY not the FAA. If we went down short of CGS, there would be no search. The plan became invalid in 15 minutes, and required activation before reaching 1,000 feet.

After one of the shortest pre flights, taxi and runup, were were in the air and active. The rest of the flight home was very ordinary.

As I tied down the Cessna, my wife said she now understood why I had said that flying around the DC area was no fun anymore.

The return flight took a total of more than two hours. The day I received my PPL at Easton, with Mr. Newnam, the flight over was 40 minutes, and the flight back was 40 minutes, in a Cessna 150.
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Wow. Well I know at least two pilots that just gave up, sold the plane and quit flying because of that. I think they were based in Leesburg.
 
I don't get why we have all this protection around the least important assets in the nation. Back during the cold war, constantly worried about the Russians? Sure. But now, who cares?

I get TFR's over football games - large crowds of people, lots of kids. I get it for Disney. But not for a bunch of lobbyists, lawyers, and has beens. They're a notch below youtube celebrities.
 
Albany Tom said:
I don't get why we have all this protection around the least important assets in the nation. Back during the cold war, constantly worried about the Russians? Sure. But now, who cares?

I get TFR's over football games - large crowds of people, lots of kids. I get it for Disney. But not for a bunch of lobbyists, lawyers, and has beens. They're a notch below youtube celebrities.
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Sports and Disney TFRs are to prevent banner towers from advertising to the crowd without the teams or Uncle Walt getting their taste.
 
Security theatre at its finest. The title is disingenuous. An intercept does not ipso facto lead to a trashed aircraft. We all have to be prepared to fly with distractions, they happen.
 
Ok, just because this is getting uninteresting...

So there my buddy was... shooting a PAR in the A4 at night, student at the controls in the back seat under the bag not doing great and just habitually low.

Cleared for the option. A missed approach planned at 200’, VMC.

At the MAP, quite low, my bud hears a weird wop wop wop, student goes bananas, airplane bucking, bud grabs controls, firewalls, saves it at something WELL below 200’, looks side ways and sees weird green lights, whatever, gets it all stable on the missed and starts the troubleshooting.

TURNS OUT, tower has cleared a MH-53 to land on that runway while approach cleared my bud. Thanks to student being LOW, he flew UNDER the edge of the rotor disc, and the green lights he saw were the cockpit lights of the Helo! WOW!

The disturbed air dropped the Helo on deck and that airframe was struck, no injuries.

He was happy to NOT know what actually happened until after he landed!

Tools
 
Tools said:
Ok, just because this is getting uninteresting...

So there my buddy was... shooting a PAR in the A4 at night, student at the controls in the back seat under the bag not doing great and just habitually low.

Cleared for the option. A missed approach planned at 200’, VMC.

At the MAP, quite low, my bud hears a weird wop wop wop, student goes bananas, airplane bucking, bud grabs controls, firewalls, saves it at something WELL below 200’, looks side ways and sees weird green lights, whatever, gets it all stable on the missed and starts the troubleshooting.

TURNS OUT, tower has cleared a MH-53 to land on that runway while approach cleared my bud. Thanks to student being LOW, he flew UNDER the edge of the rotor disc, and the green lights he saw were the cockpit lights of the Helo! WOW!

The disturbed air dropped the Helo on deck and that airframe was struck, no injuries.

He was happy to NOT know what actually happened until after he landed!

Tools
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That was a breakdown in the system. Tower has rectal cranial inversion. Your buddy doesn’t see it coming. Helo driver doesn’t see it coming. What’s the view outta the front of a TA4 like? When and where was this.
 
I think it was 98 or so in alameda. A dark night it would be hard see coming, especially if the student is just having a hard time. And ya, not a systemic problem, just nearly the perfect storm.

Good story though since all turned out, fairly, well... sure someone in ATC got a little bruise or worse...
 
Little jets like that get SFA, single freq approach, so everyone was on different freqs. Approach clears you to land and all. We even switch approach BEFORE we take off to make it easier.
 
Warmi said:
These byzantine levels of protection offered to what are basically easily replaceable old ( and sometime senile ) men are quite obscene considering that we are talking here about a republic and not a late Roman Empire…
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I'll be the odd man out on this. I mean nothing political at all but I do believe that we as a nation must protect those that we have elected to lead us.

We can agree that most of our elected officials leave a great deal to be desired and that the methods now being used to protect them are way out of bounds. Still a civilized society needs to protect it's own. Having said that, it is a pity that some are highly protected at the convenience and expense of others more needing of protection.
 
Tools said:
Little jets like that get SFA, single freq approach, so everyone was on different freqs. Approach clears you to land and all. We even switch approach BEFORE we take off to make it easier.
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Yeah. Here’s a story on that. El Toro. Landing on the 34’s and departing the 7’s is the usual configuration. F4 gets position and hold on a 7. In anticipation of getting the usual ‘change to departures, monitor guard’ speech, he goes to button whatever to just get a radio check while he’s waiting. Departures says ‘loud and clear, report airborne.’ Yeah, he brain farts that into a cleared for takeoff. There’s someone landing on 34R. Yup, a GCA. So we gots two airplanes, on two different frequencies, neither of which the Tower has, playing who can get to the intersection first. It coulda been kinda close. Someone in the Tower see’s it, don’t remember who but it wasn’t the Local Controller(the guy you call Tower.) Says something to the tune of Holy poo poo, WTF or whatever. Scratch says. Make that screams. Tower hits Guard and tells him to abort. The Marines sent a little nasty gram to the FAA and told them to quit saying ‘report airborne.’
 
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Daleandee said:
I'll be the odd man out on this. I mean nothing political at all but I do believe that we as a nation must protect those that we have elected to lead us.

We can agree that most of our elected officials leave a great deal to be desired and that the methods now being used to protect them are way out of bounds. Still a civilized society needs to protect it's own. Having said that, it is a pity that some are highly protected at the convenience and expense of others more needing of protection.
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Banning rental trucks from getting going near the President would do more than banning small planes. After all, up until 9/11, that was the deadliest weapon ever used by a terrorist.
 
luvflyin said:
Gonna be blunt here. If it flusters someone to the point of not being able to land safely they don't belong in the air and should find a new hobby. For their and others sake.
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Well, it isn't just being intercepted, it's the possibility that you may be taken out by some moron in another aircraft.
 
Daleandee said:
I'll be the odd man out on this. I mean nothing political at all but I do believe that we as a nation must protect those that we have elected to lead us.

We can agree that most of our elected officials leave a great deal to be desired and that the methods now being used to protect them are way out of bounds. Still a civilized society needs to protect it's own. Having said that, it is a pity that some are highly protected at the convenience and expense of others more needing of protection.
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I've no issue with protection, I just have an issue with massive inconveniences with absolutely zero effect on the safety of the powers that be. Zero.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Well, it isn't just being intercepted, it's the possibility that you may be taken out by some moron in another aircraft.
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Being taken out negates the problem of landing the plane. I don’t think they are going to lock on and push the button as he crosses the fence.
 
Tools said:
I think it was 98 or so in alameda. A dark night it would be hard see coming, especially if the student is just having a hard time. And ya, not a systemic problem, just nearly the perfect storm.

Good story though since all turned out, fairly, well... sure someone in ATC got a little bruise or worse...
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This would probably have got a write up in Approach Magazine. I can’t find any further back than 2004. Maybe you can. @Velocity173 , what about you?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Well, it isn't just being intercepted, it's the possibility that you may be taken out by some moron in another aircraft.
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Also, there’s a difference between a pilot that flew fighters or has combat experience, and Joe Civilian that got his PPL at age 50 and never been shot at. The former might stay perfectly cool under the circumstances. Joe Civilian (most the rest of us) might be expected to handle airplane or weather problems but that’s not quite the same as suddenly having a hostile entity put you in their gunsights.
 
nauga said:
Just because this one fits a popular agenda does not make it any less the responsibility of the pilot in command to maintain control of the aircraft in the presence of distractions.

The OP example and (mis)attribution is equally ridiculous.
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Some people can't handle stress very well. ATC states to tell them when ready to copy a number for possible pilot deviation to reduce this effect which is great. I'm in the medical field and see a LOT of people spaz out in medical situations that are no big deal to us, but are to the patient or family as they haven't seen it before, especially if it involves heavy bleeding ...
 
The TFRs are mostly horsecrap IMO, but blaming TFRs for crappy landings is dumb. We are pilots, we have been trained not to allow extraneous things affect our performance flying the aircraft. Aviate, navigate, communicate.

Pilots who bust TFRs are either deficient, or having a bad day. I suspect the having a bad day pilots land just fine. The deficient pilots prang their airplanes.
 
luvflyin said:
This would probably have got a write up in Approach Magazine. I can’t find any further back than 2004. Maybe you can. @Velocity173 , what about you?
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Nope. I actually had a subscription in the 1990s but threw them all out. Wish I would’ve kept them. Got some “The Hook” mags but I doubt it has a write up. Most certainly that story was in Approach Mag.
 
ateamer said:
Banning rental trucks from getting going near the President would do more than banning small planes. After all, up until 9/11, that was the deadliest weapon ever used by a terrorist.
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In 2002, I noticed that a truck rental company wanted me two show three forms of ID.
 
ateamer said:
Sports and Disney TFRs are to prevent banner towers from advertising to the crowd without the teams or Uncle Walt getting their taste.
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Fun fact.
The Disney TFR does not extend out all the way to the Animal Kingdom.
 
danhagan said:
I'm in the medical field and see a LOT of people spaz out in medical situations that are no big deal to us, but are to the patient or family as they haven't seen it before, especially if it involves heavy bleeding ...
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Guy I worked with - working on a roof, cuts his leg pretty good, climbs down, goes into the bathroom, drops trou and sits on the toilet to deal with it. Sees all the blood and passes out. Wife found him lying on the bathroom floor, pants down, bleeding, and drags him off to get stitches.
Buddy - working construction and someone puts a 16d nail right through his hand (air nailer). Boss tells the buddy to take him to ER. Halfway there, buddy gets woozy and is having trouble driving. Guy with the nail through his hand is cool, just sitting in the passenger seat smoking a cig like nothing has happened. He switches places and drives the rest of the way himself. They walk in and triage thinks that buddy is the reason they are there because he looks so bad and rush to help him first.
 
ateamer said:
Banning rental trucks from getting going near the President would do more than banning small planes. After all, up until 9/11, that was the deadliest weapon ever used by a terrorist.
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Ever been around a President? They are way ahead of you.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Guy I worked with - working on a roof, cuts his leg pretty good, climbs down, goes into the bathroom, drops trou and sits on the toilet to deal with it. Sees all the blood and passes out. Wife found him lying on the bathroom floor, pants down, bleeding, and drags him off to get stitches.
Buddy - working construction and someone puts a 16d nail right through his hand (air nailer). Boss tells the buddy to take him to ER. Halfway there, buddy gets woozy and is having trouble driving. Guy with the nail through his hand is cool, just sitting in the passenger seat smoking a cig like nothing has happened. He switches places and drives the rest of the way himself. They walk in and triage thinks that buddy is the reason they are there because he looks so bad and rush to help him first.
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I barely made it through CPR training…the instructor said I was a peculiar shade of gray that she didn’t see very often on live people. I told my copilot that if something happened in the back and he wanted to help out, that was fine. I’d stay in the cockpit, close the door, hold my headset tight against my ears, and say “lalalalalalalalalalalalalala” until the issue was resolved.
 
I ain't gonna lie. I got intercepted once. I was overseas on 9/11 and stayed there for 2 years, so I had no idea about the new use of TFR's until I home from a year in Iraq in 2004 and started flying again.

My Decathlon was based at Clearwater Air Park, under Tampa Class B near the ocean. I used to fly a few miles out to the beach where the airspace floor was 6K, pop up to practice acro, then dive back under and zip home. My weather brief was looking at the sky, and my NOTAM check was looking at the runway. There was no such thing as Foreflight. My radio stayed off.

Had I called 1-800-WX-BRIEF that day in the fall of 2004, I would have discovered that Dick Cheney was giving a speech at Tarpon Springs. So I did my thing, and was returning to my home field at 2,000' AGL, when an F18 cut across my nose about 500 yards in front of me.

Well I will tell you, an F18 is a big freaking airplane, and pretty much fills your windscreen at that range, especially with the wings perpendicular to your nose. It will get your attention. I am pretty sure that I shouted "HOLY S%@#!". I know that I instinctively turned a 180. The F18 began orbiting me, a few thousand feet above. He was fully loaded for bear, and had full flaps and possibly gear down to stay slow. I kept circling to figure out what was happening.

After a few orbits, I decided I was going to land, so I continued a few miles to my home airfield. He followed me and circled the airfield until I shut the hangar door. Some guys were standing on the runway looking up and shading their eyes. I asked them what was going on. One of them said "some idiot violated the TFR."

I called the FAA and said "hey, if you guys are looking for a yellow airplane, that was me, so umm, sorry." They said thanks for calling, took my contact info, and said I would either hear from them or not. I never heard from them.

I've thought a lot about it since then. I'm pretty sure I could have taken him in a turn fight.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I ain't gonna lie. I got intercepted once. I was overseas on 9/11 and stayed there for 2 years, so I had no idea about the new use of TFR's until I home from a year in Iraq in 2004 and started flying again.

My Decathlon was based at Clearwater Air Park, under Tampa Class B near the ocean. I used to fly a few miles out to the beach where the airspace floor was 6K, pop up to practice acro, then dive back under and zip home. My weather brief was looking at the sky, and my NOTAM check was looking at the runway. There was no such thing as Foreflight. My radio stayed off.

Had I called 1-800-WX-BRIEF that day in the fall of 2004, I would have discovered that Dick Cheney was giving a speech at Tarpon Springs. So I did my thing, and was returning to my home field at 2,000' AGL, when an F18 cut across my nose about 500 yards in front of me.

Well I will tell you, an F18 is a big freaking airplane, and pretty much fills your windscreen at that range, especially with the wings perpendicular to your nose. It will get your attention. I am pretty sure that I shouted "HOLY S%@#!". I know that I instinctively turned a 180. The F18 began orbiting me, a few thousand feet above. He was fully loaded for bear, and had full flaps and possibly gear down to stay slow. I kept circling to figure out what was happening.

After a few orbits, I decided I was going to land, so I continued a few miles to my home airfield. He followed me and circled the airfield until I shut the hangar door. Some guys were standing on the runway looking up and shading their eyes. I asked them what was going on. One of them said "some idiot violated the TFR."

I called the FAA and said "hey, if you guys are looking for a yellow airplane, that was me, so umm, sorry." They said thanks for calling, took my contact info, and said I would either hear from them or not. I never heard from them.

I've thought a lot about it since then. I'm pretty sure I could have taken him in a turn fight.
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Good for you calling. Great story.
 
Tis true about the turn fight, but unless it’s a nugget you’re fighting, he’s just gonna go vertical, come back down and shoot you in the face... or so I’m told...

So here’s the turn rate tally:

decathalon 90 kts, 1.1 g, all day=
S3 Viking 160 kts, 2 g, quite a long time =
F18, gawd knows, 6 g grunting and outta gas in two turns!

And ya, even though I’ve been there, if a Hornet intercepted me in my Piet, pretty sure I’d poop myself.
 
I think I get about three or four emails when there is a TFR in the northeast, probably one or two for any in other parts of the country. Foreflight shows them graphically. Fltplan Go does as well. Hell, my weather radar app even shows it. If an airport is near the TFR, it will show up in the NOTAMs. There is no excuse for not knowing. Piloting is easy. Piloting well takes attention to detail.
 
ateamer said:
Banning rental trucks from getting going near the President would do more than banning small planes. After all, up until 9/11, that was the deadliest weapon ever used by a terrorist.
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As I said .. we can certainly agree that the methods used are a bit over the top (pun intended) ...
 
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Tools said:
Tis true about the turn fight, but unless it’s a nugget you’re fighting, he’s just gonna go vertical, come back down and shoot you in the face...
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yup, beat me to it. Doesn't even need to be full vertical. Any climbing oblique rate fight and the spam can is tostadas. Getting 9X'd in the face by a guy who doesn't even have to chuck his bags is just not a good look.

Reminds me of this one turn fight. :D
 
geezer said:
Not a TFR event, but.....
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Wow, that was certainly quite the ordeal. Did you hear anything back from Homeland Security or anyone else about what happened???
 
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