Insurance claims class action

J

Jmatalon

Filing Flight Plan
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Sep 16, 2010
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Joey
If anyone has submitted an insurance claim for damage to their aircraft and the insurance company deducted from the payment an amount for "betterment" or "depreciation" because certain replacement parts were newer than those replaced, I would like to hear from you. This is not permitted unless the policy specifically allows it, and many policies don't. There have been successful class actions in the auto and watercraft insurance industries and I am exploring such a class action against aviation insurers. I can be reached at pilotlawyer450@gmail.com.
 
You might consider it spam but I'm willing to bet you were not a victim of this practice. If your plane was damaged and you had to go out of pocket for the repair because the company gave you newer parts I'm sure you would not be happy.
 
Jmatalon said:
You might consider it spam but I'm willing to bet you were not a victim of this practice. If your plane was damaged and you had to go out of pocket for the repair because the company gave you newer parts I'm sure you would not be happy.
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Did every user of PoA ask you for an advertisement for your services?

If the answer is no, then this was an unsolicited ad.....

World English Dictionary said:
spam (spæm)

— vb , spams , spamming , spammed

to send unsolicited electronic mail or text messages simultaneously to a number of e-mail addresses or mobile phones
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This would be appropriate if posted under The Classifieds. Perhaps post there and request this one be deleted? Otherwise this is on the same level as chasing an ambulance.
 
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I was a participant in a major class action against the credit card processors, and we won. I was elated when I found out. This was big, it was nation wide. I could not wait to see all the money I knew I had coming. It finally arrived, long after I had given up and forgotten about it completely.

With trembling hands, and visions of a new airplane dancing around in my head, I ripped the envelope open. I eagerly withdrew my check and started pondering just how I was going to spend my eight dollars and twenty seven cents. I decided to purchase a cup of coffee and a role at Starbucks.

I had another one years before that, I can't even recall what it was about. I netted something like four dollars.

Class action lawsuits are always a disappointment to everyone involved, except for the lawyers. It really is a payday for them when they hit on a winner.
For us, whoever is the lawyers victim, in this case insurance companies, our costs do nothing but go up and up.

There is a reason airplanes are so darn expensive.

John
 
So, what are the members of your class gonna get ? A coupon for $53.21 cents useable on their next insurance bill ?

The 'damage' most aircraft owners are going to have from 'betterment' is small, the only person who makes out like a thief is the lawyer who drives the whole racket.

If you think you have been wronged by your insurance company because your contract didn't explicitly had a betterment clause, go ahead and sue them. If you are right, they'll have to make you whole.

If you screw up your 20 year old and 10 years past overhaul prop on a taxiway light and the insurance co buys you a new one (+ an engine inspection with new seals), sure you should pay for some of it yourself.
 
I have read occasional things about betterment and frankly it concerns me.
On the face of it, seems like you pay for a certain level of insurance and then the insurance companies use fine print or legal tricks to get out of what the agree to. I would like to know how widespread this is before I get on any bandwagon.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I have read occasional things about betterment and frankly it concerns me.
On the face of it, seems like you pay for a certain level of insurance and then the insurance companies use fine print or legal tricks to get out of what the agree to. I would like to know how widespread this is before I get on any bandwagon.
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Doesn't matter. If it has happened to you, sue them yourself. It'll be worth it when you win.

If you join the class, you are only ensuring that the insurance company gets raked for as much as it can, and in return, you will get like $5, but your insurance rates will go up about $40 a year.

Hardly worth it, eh?
 
One class action returned 95 pct of the deductions taken by the insurance company and another 50 pct. This is not a nuisance suit but seeks to right serious wrongs. This is not like the lawsuits against telephone companies where the consumer gets a coupon to buy more services and the lawyers make millions.
 
Jmatalon said:
One class action returned 95 pct of the deductions taken by the insurance company and another 50 pct. This is not a nuisance suit but seeks to right serious wrongs. This is not like the lawsuits against telephone companies where the consumer gets a coupon to buy more services and the lawyers make millions.
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On average, how much did a participant get from the last class action you are referring to, and what was the lawyer's take?

I'm still betting we're talking dozens of dollars vs. millions of dollars, with the insurance company having to raise rates to stay afloat.
 
Jmatalon said:
One class action returned 95 pct of the deductions taken by the insurance company and another 50 pct. This is not a nuisance suit but seeks to right serious wrongs.
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In many cases, betterment is not a 'serious wrong'.

If they deduct the cost for new wing-skins after a bird-strike, it would be wrong. If they deduct betterment on a time-limited part/consumable like prop, engine, wheels or tires I see nothing wrong with it.
 
Holy uncalled for dog pile, POA.
Class action lawsuits are a boon for the lawyer set, true... but at the same time, the value of the suits is to stop companies from continuing practices that are in some cases truly abusive.
I'm a huge fan of tort reform, 'tis true. But at the same time, let's not get all overwhelmingly negative and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
SkyHog said:
This would be appropriate if posted under The Classifieds. Perhaps post there and request this one be deleted? Otherwise this is on the same level as chasing an ambulance.
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What's the minimum altitude to fly when chasing an ambulance?
 
Telemakhos said:
Holy uncalled for dog pile, POA.
Class action lawsuits are a boon for the lawyer set, true... but at the same time, the value of the suits is to stop companies from continuing practices that are in some cases truly abusive.
I'm a huge fan of tort reform, 'tis true. But at the same time, let's not get all overwhelmingly negative and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Wouldn't have happened if posted in an area that is set up to accept spam (The Classifieds), methinks.
 
SkyHog said:
Wouldn't have happened if posted in an area that is set up to accept spam (The Classifieds), methinks.
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Fair point. It also probably would have been better to establish the problem: "Hey guys, has anyone ever had this happen to them?"
And then several posts later go in for the kill shot: "Well, I've talked to a bunch of PO'd pilots and we're thinking that a class-action might be the way to go."
Whatever. At least the OP wasn't asking us if we'd suffered lead poisoning from avgas...
 
Telemakhos said:
Holy uncalled for dog pile, POA.
Class action lawsuits are a boon for the lawyer set, true... but at the same time, the value of the suits is to stop companies from continuing practices that are in some cases truly abusive.
I'm a huge fan of tort reform, 'tis true. But at the same time, let's not get all overwhelmingly negative and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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With dwindling pilot and aircraft populations, we are lucky to have what insurers there are in the market still bothering to compete with one another for our business.

I can't imagine it would take much for one or two of the aviation carriers to decide we're not worth the hassle anymore, then we all get hosed by a reduced and less competitive marketplace. If lawyers start bending nickels over insurance betterment payouts, I think some companies would consider that a hassle.

Aviation insurance is sumptuous compared to, say, auto coverage. No approved-shops-only policy, they pretty much pay for what you ask for within reason, and the adjusters I've worked with bend over backwards to make sure I'm whole. Hell, my insurer just paid $12,000 to X-Ray a guy's cirrus after doing a nosegear collapse, JUST to make sure the plane had no serious structural defects in the wings (which did not strike). This was at the pilot's wife's request.

I just had our insurer pay to truck a plane 1,200mi for us so that I could have my preferred shop do a repair. My preferred shop was $35,000 more than the nearest-to-accident site, plus whatever the wing removal/transport costs were. Try that with GEICO on your Honda after some tool rear-ends you.

Lawyer, leave my aviation insurer alone. I will need him and his competitors in the future, more than your clients need free betterments today. You may close a loophole and a technicality with your suit, but you'll only force the companies to ratchet premiums up and service levels down. I think aviation has seen enough of that treatment.
 
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shenanigans said:
What's the minimum altitude to fly when chasing an ambulance?
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Since two thousand lawyers chained together at the bottom of the ocean is called a good start, and sharks will not eat said lawyers due to professional courtesy, the answer must be the deepest spot in the ocean.
 
c'mon, let's not broad brush the lawyers here ... we have a couple long-time members that are stand-up guys.
 
Sooo...curious...why aren't threads like this moved to the classifieds?

Just the other day another one popped up in Pilot Training: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43356

The great part about that one is that it appears that the OP registered twice, as two different personalities, so he could give himself a good review. Or we have two buddies spamming in unison.
 
gkainz said:
c'mon, let's not broad brush the lawyers here ... we have a couple long-time members that are stand-up guys.
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Agreed.

As an attorney friend of mine is fond to say; "95% of us give the other 5% a bad name".
 
Jmatalon said:
You might consider it spam but I'm willing to bet you were not a victim of this practice. If your plane was damaged and you had to go out of pocket for the repair because the company gave you newer parts I'm sure you would not be happy.
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Personally, I'd love to see the cases posted here. Lets see how much problem there is. In the claims I've settled, it's never been a topic of consideration. I pay to repair the damages less the stated deductible. I have never been instructed to depreciate anything on a repair. There have been prop strikes where the owner chose to upgrade the prop and then I pay whatever the repair cost was and they add whatever for the upgrade. There was no "Well, their aluminum is old, so we only pay 60%". Now, I can get you to use used parts in "like and kind" condition, and when that's feasible, it's typically the preferred method of repair. I don't have to buy you a new wing if something else is available, but, if nothing else is available, then I have to buy you a new wing to make you whole (or pay out policy limits, total the airplane and send the file to Salvage and Recovery).
 
In my experience Insurance companies can do what they want when they want and there isnt much one can do about it. It is their game and the policy holder has to play by their rules.
 
John Baker said:
Class action lawsuits are always a disappointment to everyone involved, except for the lawyers. It really is a payday for them when they hit on a winner./QUOTE]

That's because they almost always settle out of court for far less than the actual damages.

Big companies figured out long ago that paying to retain a fleet of lawyers allows them to settle these wrongdoings far cheaper than the damage they actually caused through negligence or even gross negligence. They pay for the lawyers via malfeasance and give back a percentage in settlements. It's a pretty simple balance sheet.

The court system itself assists this by making the typical time required to come to such an agreement last longer than most individuals can possibly hope to hold out who don't have piles of money.

You're entitled to all the best law you can buy in our legal system.
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flyer said:
In my experience Insurance companies can do what they want when they want and there isnt much one can do about it. It is their game and the policy holder has to play by their rules.
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You are very mistaken. Insurance companies are highly regulated and governed and are subject to Punitive Damages for acting in "Bad Faith". In any dispute you have with an insurance company, you can bring in your own adjuster. There is always recourse available to you.
 
denverpilot said:
Administered by... Lawyers.
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No Sir... In the end, administered by Juries, and Juries hate insurance companies. No insurance company wants to face a Bad Faith lawsuit. They do not typically win them and settle in the $10sMM off of $10,000 claims. Adding a full trio of zeros to the claim is not unheard of for punis.
 
Henning said:
You are very mistaken. Insurance companies are highly regulated and governed and are subject to Punitive Damages for acting in "Bad Faith". In any dispute you have with an insurance company, you can bring in your own adjuster. There is always recourse available to you.
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That hasn't been the case in my past experience. The adjusters say this is how it is take it or leave it, or just deny all together if there is no way to recover the loss.
 
flyer said:
That hasn't been the case in my past experience. The adjusters say this is how it is take it or leave it, or just deny all together if there is no way to recover the loss.
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Have you ever escalated it beyond that stage ? Lawyer letters etc. ?
 
weilke said:
Have you ever escalated it beyond that stage ? Lawyer letters etc. ?
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Nope. I never hired a lawyer, but I did send my own letter but it dosnt do any good. Aircraft insurance co do what they want and make up the rules as they go.

So it dosnt surprise me that the insurance co are doing as the OP posted about.
 
I think I might be suffering from lead poisoning caused by ave gas, I've had this pain in my butt all morning. I'll bet it's led poisoning from ave gas.

John
 
I 'ave gas as well...
 
I'v had to file a number of claims in my life, and I have never had anything less than complete satisfaction. Heck, the insurance rate on my Goldwing went down after I rear-ended the soccer mom and her land yacht, and they had to pay about ten years worth of premiums on that one. Then again, I've been a customer of theirs for about 30.
 
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