Instrument proficiency

labbadabba

labbadabba

Pattern Altitude
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labbadabba
Question to the more experienced instrument flyers, what are the first skills to erode?

Scan, Spacial Disorientation, Procedures, etc?
 
Fixation in your scan. Being able to incorporate everything else you need to do while maintaining your scan. This is also a problem for autopilot-dependent pilots as well.

Procedures aren't generally a problem, although you'll find folks missing steps, forgetting to set to the local altimeter setting, betting behind the plane; mostly due to the reason I mentioned above.
 
Being ahead of the game is what I think. Things that are automatic when you are proficient end up taking time (or getting omitted).
 
Scan, without a doubt. When my approaches go to crap, it's because I'm fixating and over correcting.
 
For me, it's the scan. That's why I find IFR practice on my home PC useful (even though I can't log it).
 
Can't maintain altitude? Adjust the altimeter setting.
Can't maintain heading? Empty the compass.
Can't maintain course? Use the OBS knob.
Can't keep it level? OK, now you need to see a CFII.
 
Being ahead. Distance/time ahead erodes proportionately to time away from flying IFR/IMC. When you start actually getting behind (or maybe just before), it's time to get a CFII to knock off your cobwebs.
 
GliderDude, I have to agree with the 'being ahead' comment. I've noticed the skills erode slightly if I've been away from the sim and the plane a little too long. However, it's always resolved by the end of the flight so I've never felt compelled to go and seek help.

Obviously, if you've been away for so long that doing the flight is a bad idea to start with, then, yes, bring someone along.
 
coma24 said:
GliderDude, I have to agree with the 'being ahead' comment. I've noticed the skills erode slightly if I've been away from the sim and the plane a little too long. However, it's always resolved by the end of the flight so I've never felt compelled to go and seek help.

Obviously, if you've been away for so long that doing the flight is a bad idea to start with, then, yes, bring someone along.
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Agreed. I end up taking a ride with a CFII proactively sometimes, if I feel it's needed. But once in the soup, I am generally committed, and as you say by the end of the flight I am typically back to normal.
 
I don't think it's one which erodes, I think you just slow down and start getting behind the plane in general, maybe a bad habit or two sets in.
 
First thing to erode with me is my self confidence in IMC....that fleeting moment when you first enter to soup and say to yourself "Jesus what the hell am I doing". It goes away for me in a few seconds into flying in IMC after seeing I'm flying fine and only happens when I haven't flown in actual in a while
 
Confidence level suffers a little till,I'm comfortable in the clouds again.
 
Heading hold - me, not the autopilot - if I'm rusty, it drifts farther. Weird, in that I seem to hold altitude spot on; I don't think it's my scan, as I stick with the AI as the "central" focus, then look to the DG, back to the AI, then Altimeter, back to AI, etc.
 
Sundancer said:
Heading hold - me, not the autopilot - if I'm rusty, it drifts farther. Weird, in that I seem to hold altitude spot on; I don't think it's my scan, as I stick with the AI as the "central" focus, then look to the DG, back to the AI, then Altimeter, back to AI, etc.
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Honestly I don't look at the AI anymore if straight and level. I bounce between DG/HSI and altimeter. Your DG/HSI will indicate you are drifting much more so than your AI will. Maybe make the DG/HSI more of your central focus than your AI and see if that helps.
 
When I have to knock some rust off it's usually the scan. Getting it going and reacting quickly to what I see. The first approach, under foggles, is more like work. The second is more crisp, good read/reactions and back to normal. Keeping current and being proficient do not go hand in hand, it's something I feel takes some work and repetition to be safe.
 
EdFred said:
Honestly I don't look at the AI anymore if straight and level. I bounce between DG/HSI and altimeter. Your DG/HSI will indicate you are drifting much more so than your AI will. Maybe make the DG/HSI more of your central focus than your AI and see if that helps.
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yup.....me too. :yes:
 
EdFred said:
Honestly I don't look at the AI anymore if straight and level. I bounce between DG/HSI and altimeter. Your DG/HSI will indicate you are drifting much more so than your AI will. Maybe make the DG/HSI more of your central focus than your AI and see if that helps.
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That's the ol' control vs performance instrument debate. I tend to skip the control (AI) and go right to the performance myself. If the DG is turning, wings aren't level. Same in climb, I'll go right to airpeed rather than set "dots up" and see what airspeed it gets me. For descent, power settings.

I guess I'm a needle, ball and airpeed kind of guy.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
for me.....loss of Procedures and developing bad habits. :(
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I think that's true for most. Even the rusty scan is based on developing a bad habit.

The flying skill that erodes is the scan but flying skill is only about 20% of IFR flight. Procedural knowledge dominates.
 
I didn't fly instruments for a year. When I got back into it I stil had my scan and procedures down but I was way behind the airplane.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
That's the ol' control vs performance instrument debate. I tend to skip the control (AI) and go right to the performance myself. If the DG is turning, wings aren't level. Same in climb, I'll go right to airpeed rather than set "dots up" and see what airspeed it gets me. For descent, power settings.

I guess I'm a needle, ball and airpeed kind of guy.
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Plus if your AI is off even a degree or two, you won't really notice it, and you'll be slllloooooowwwwly turning.
 
EdFred said:
Plus if your AI is off even a degree or two, you won't really notice it, and you'll be slllloooooowwwwly turning.
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If your scan includes a proper cross-check you will notice it. If it doesn't, leaving out the AI won't help, except for the AI.

The need to understand the instruments, what they do, how they work, and verifying their proper operation in flight by cross-checking with other instruments that provide similar information, is not the monopoly of any one specific scan technique.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If your scan includes a proper cross-check you will notice it. If it doesn't, leaving out the AI won't help, except for the AI.

The need to understand the instruments, what they do, how they work, and verifying their proper operation in flight by cross-checking with other instruments that provide similar information, is not the monopoly of any one specific scan technique.
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If you can tell a cant of 1 degree, you're way better than I am.
 
EdFred said:
If you can tell a cant of 1 degree, you're way better than I am.
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I can't and never claimed I could. Heck, I can't maintain 1° if the AI is perfect. I need to cross-check to know that I keep turning right when my AI shows more or less centered.

You are clearly much better since, having called me to task for not being able to notice that 1° discrepancy without cross-checking anything else, you must be able to tell when you DG is off by 1° or your altitude is off by a foot without checking anything else.
 
I think part of the reason I scan the way I do is the airplane I trained in had a shotgun panel, and the AI wasn't exactly in prime real estate.

It's all in what makes you comfortable.
 
I took a 6-month break during which I didn't even think about the airplane. My problem was the box and remembering what buttons to push. Physically flying the airplane came right back, even the instrument scan.
 
EdFred said:
Honestly I don't look at the AI anymore if straight and level. I bounce between DG/HSI and altimeter. Your DG/HSI will indicate you are drifting much more so than your AI will. Maybe make the DG/HSI more of your central focus than your AI and see if that helps.
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You know, I will try that, thanks. . .might dial it up on the desktop simulator, and see how it feels over the holiday.
 
EdFred said:
Honestly I don't look at the AI anymore if straight and level. I bounce between DG/HSI and altimeter. Your DG/HSI will indicate you are drifting much more so than your AI will. Maybe make the DG/HSI more of your central focus than your AI and see if that helps.
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+1 on this. One of my first instructors was such a hard-ass about partial panel that it still (20 yeaers later) feels like a treat to have all the gyros available and I subsequently have a lingering distrust of the AI.
 
gasfiltered said:
+1 on this. One of my first instructors was such a hard-ass about partial panel that it still (20 yeaers later) feels like a treat to have all the gyros available and I subsequently have a lingering distrust of the AI.
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Mine was the same way, and although I didn't distrust the AI, I didn't really focus on it after that until I went for the multiengine rating. Then I found that I really needed to pay attention to it in order to successfully fly instrument approaches on one engine.
 
I was away from the cockpit for a long time, and jumped back into it this year. The flying skills and scan came back pretty quick. The hard part for me was procedural, remembering when to do what and doing the little things to stay ahead. There were several moments when I knew I should be doing something, but kind of just sat there wondering what to do next. It took a while to get comfortable with my habit patterns, but once I did I was back to normal.

As for omitting the AI in the scan, everybody has their own way of doing things but I would advise against it was unless your scan just naturally leads you to that point. I like to scan what is going to give the first indication of deviation. My primary scan revolves around AI, and VSI. For wings level, I scan the arrows at the top of the AI. To hold altitude, I primarily scan the VSI and my secondary scan is to my altitude indicator.

When you get into the terminal environment, you will have to scan your AI for turns, establishing descents, and other things. I would not want to change my scan from what I had previously been doing during the cruise phase once I get busy in the terminal environment. I would prefer to use the time at altitude and wings level to build that habit pattern that will be useful when things get busy. When things go wrong, the AI is your best way to keep yourself safe and get back in a good position. I personally think it's important to keep it in your scan, but I know different things work for different people.
 
Cooter143 said:
I was away from the cockpit for a long time, and jumped back into it this year. The flying skills and scan came back pretty quick. The hard part for me was procedural, remembering when to do what and doing the little things to stay ahead. There were several moments when I knew I should be doing something, but kind of just sat there wondering what to do next. It took a while to get comfortable with my habit patterns, but once I did I was back to normal.

As for omitting the AI in the scan, everybody has their own way of doing things but I would advise against it was unless your scan just naturally leads you to that point. I like to scan what is going to give the first indication of deviation. My primary scan revolves around AI, and VSI. For wings level, I scan the arrows at the top of the AI. To hold altitude, I primarily scan the VSI and my secondary scan is to my altitude indicator.

When you get into the terminal environment, you will have to scan your AI for turns, establishing descents, and other things. I would not want to change my scan from what I had previously been doing during the cruise phase once I get busy in the terminal environment. I would prefer to use the time at altitude and wings level to build that habit pattern that will be useful when things get busy. When things go wrong, the AI is your best way to keep yourself safe and get back in a good position. I personally think it's important to keep it in your scan, but I know different things work for different people.
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I avoid advising anyone to change a technique that works for them. Personally I think that's the #1 cardinal sin for an instructor.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I avoid advising anyone to change a technique that works for them.
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I agree, but in the context of works and is SAFE. I've seen lots of pilots develop techniques that "work" for them, but it ignores the larger picture. I think that is probably a reason behind a significant number of GA accidents. Much of my training revolved around what could happen, not what usually happens. Unfortunately, after training, many of our habits form around what usually happens and that can be a setup for failure.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I avoid advising anyone to change a technique that works for them. Personally I think that's the #1 cardinal sin for an instructor.
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I totally agree, especially when each instructor tries to give you a new acronym to remember. You would think it would be better at training centers where I would assume there it an attempt at standardization, but no, there are still instructors who are in love with their own technique and try to push it on the student.
 
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