Instrument Departure - Cleared into the B?

[flyingron]

I recently returned from KPIL (Padre Island) and filed direct to KMKO (Muskogee, OK) for a fuel stop. When I picked up my clearance before departure I was cleared direct KMKO as filed. In REALITY when I got to the DFW Bravo, I was vectored completely AROUND the BRAVO airspace and ATC informed me that I could NOT fly through the BRAVO on an IFR flight plan. First time that ever happened. I have flown through B airspace around the country many times, including this week on IFR flight plans. Discussed this with a hangar neighbor who happens to be a controller. His comment was that ATC was just being lazy, but it was a significant inconvenience for me.

Chicago is much the same way. coming from the southeast IFR I am always sent to KELSI which is way west of ORD outside the class B. One day I was IFR approaching chicago at 10,000 feet and the exchange went like this:

27K: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to go to KELSI?
C90: Let me check <short pause>.. No.
27K: OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to climb up 500 feet, cancel IFR, and you'll give me flight following direct Oshkosh.
C90: We can do that.

The odd thing was that they then had to stop airliners departing eastbound out of MDW and ORD at 9000 to avoid me. Except they forgot one. I watched an MD80 climbing toward me and then descending:

UA: Hey, we just got a TCAS RA.
C90: Oh, yeah, there's a Navion up there at 10,5000.

I still don't understand why clearning me through at 4000 or something doesn't end up easier than letting me go VFR just outside the class B.

NY will sometimes route you way over to the west, but more often than not you're cleared right over JFK (airplanes don't go straight up).

 

[Nathan Miller]

I don't think it's just CFIs that drill this into our heads. I've been to several seminars hosted by ATC, the most recent being at Oshkosh on Saturday, and that is exactly how they worded it... "You must hear, 'cleared into the xyz bravo' in order to enter and if you don't, you should query us on it."

This is, of course, in the context of VFR flight?

 

[luvflyin]

I recently returned from KPIL (Padre Island) and filed direct to KMKO (Muskogee, OK) for a fuel stop. When I picked up my clearance before departure I was cleared direct KMKO as filed. In REALITY when I got to the DFW Bravo, I was vectored completely AROUND the BRAVO airspace and ATC informed me that I could NOT fly through the BRAVO on an IFR flight plan. First time that ever happened. I have flown through B airspace around the country many times, including this week on IFR flight plans. Discussed this with a hangar neighbor who happens to be a controller. His comment was that ATC was just being lazy, but it was a significant inconvenience for me.

?? KPIL direct KMKO doesn’t get within 20 miles of the DFW B.

 

[DogoPilot]

This is, of course, in the context of VFR flight?

That's correct.

 

[RKW]

LOA’s are hard to find. The FAA does not make them publicly available. I’ve heard of someone getting one through the Freedom of Information Act process but it took awhile.

While inconvenienced, I'm not so inconvenienced as to see the need to do that.

I'll just fly around it. Not really a significant addition of time to go around.

 

[Shawn]

I don't think it's just CFIs that drill this into our heads. I've been to several seminars hosted by ATC, the most recent being at Oshkosh on Saturday, and that is exactly how they worded it... "You must hear, 'cleared into the xyz bravo' in order to enter and if you don't, you should query us on it."

Yeah...guess that goes both ways and ATC should also drill into VFR pilots never to assume Clearance or think that is inferred with an instruction, but that still goes back to my point of not many pilots fully understand the nuance of the regs and know what is actually required beyond just that phrase for Bravo entry.

Teach the why, not just the what.

 

[Bill Haley]

?? KPIL direct KMKO doesn’t get within 20 miles of the DFW B.

You are correct sir. The fact of the matter is that we were flying around thunderstorms all the way from KPIL and had to divert to the West quite a ways. By the time we cleared the convective activity we directly south of the DFW Bravo. Hopefully that clears up any confusion. I can send you a picture of the Flight Aware track that shows it quite well.

In the future, weather permitting, I will fly VFR over the top of the Bravo. I have been told that sometimes even over the top on IFR they will vector you around the Bravo.

 

[Llewtrah381]

That is correct. There is an LOA in place between Fort Worth Center and DFW Approach to not allow transient IFR traffic to go through DFW Bravo. You can go over it VFR or you can go around it and stay IFR. To go over IFR, but to stay out of approach's airspace, so you're up in the FL. This has to do with the quantity of traffic between KDFW and KDAL coupled with the relative complexity of the arrival corridors. About the only time you can go into DFW Bravo on an IFR flight plan is if you're going to an airport somewhere inside, or if it's between 2300 and 0400 local.

Your controller friend should have known that he wasn't being lazy, but following their LOA.

Sidenote:
Are the letters of agreement publicly available? I'd like to read that one for a few reasons, mainly that I go over/around it weekly...any of the controllers on here care to chime in?

Absolutely consistent with my experience around DFW. In fact, it seems a bit “tighter”: they won’t even let you near but outside the B en route somewhere without passing over one of the “corner posts”: Cedar Creek/CQY (most common for me), Bonham/BYP, Bowie/UKW, Millsap/MQP, or Waco/ACT. Even skirting outside ACT and CQY they’ll initially route me over them until I ask for direct. Any more and I just file CQY/Direct when heading northeast out of the Austin area even if I’d pass east of CQY anyway. Even then, most of the time they add ACT, which would pull me west unnecessarily. They usually at least let me go direct CQY once I get going.

By contrast, I typically go over Memphis and New Orleans with no problem. Charlotte is another one that’s picky.

To be fair, the Regional Approach (DFW) controllers are very much team players. Charlotte? To me, not so much.

 

[luvflyin]

While inconvenienced, I'm not so inconvenienced as to see the need to do that.

I'll just fly around it. Not really a significant addition of time to go around.

??? Getting a copy of the LOA is not going to change what they do with you

You are correct sir. The fact of the matter is that we were flying around thunderstorms all the way from KPIL and had to divert to the West quite a ways. By the time we cleared the convective activity we directly south of the DFW Bravo. Hopefully that clears up any confusion. I can send you a picture of the Flight Aware track that shows it quite well.

In the future, weather permitting, I will fly VFR over the top of the Bravo. I have been told that sometimes even over the top on IFR they will vector you around the Bravo.

Nah. Pic not needed, that explains it. Getting routed around traffic is getting getting routed around traffic. There is nothing sacred about the Bravo itself as concerns IFR traffic. The separation criteria for IFR traffic is the same in or out of the Bravo. Planes climb through the ceiling on their way out and descend into it on their way in. If there is a whole lot them then yeah, ATC is going to be moving some planes around to keep them apart.

 

[RKW]

??? Getting a copy of the LOA is not going to change what they do with you

Hah. I understood that. I've never had a problem going around DFW in the first place. My response was just a poorly worded shrug of indifference about having to go around in the first place.