Instrument Departure - Cleared into the B?

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
Does an Instrument Departure clearance automatically include clearance into Bravo airspace where the it's depicted on the DP or do you need to hear the words, "cleared into Bravo" during the clearance readback?
 
It automatically includes it.
 
Into the Bravo.

I was direct to Florida, "cleared as filed" and punched right through Cinci's Bravo since that's where my route took me.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Does an Instrument Departure clearance automatically include clearance into Bravo airspace where the it's depicted on the DP or do you need to hear the words, "cleared into Bravo" during the clearance readback?
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Well, they ain’t the ones doing the readback, that’s you. Any IFR clearance that takes you through the Bravo is by default a clearance into the Bravo. They don’t say it. And neither do you when reading it back.
 
You need a clearance to go into Class B. If your IFR clearance takes you into or though Class B, that’s your clearance. You don’t need a separate one.

A VFR airplane is normally operating without a clearance, even when on vectors or flight following, so a specific clearance is required/given to enter Class B.
 
MauleSkinner said:
You need a clearance to go into Class B. If your IFR clearance takes you into or though Class B, that’s your clearance. You don’t need a separate one.

A VFR airplane is normally operating without a clearance, even when on vectors or flight following, so a specific clearance is required/given to enter Class B.
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That's the clearest, most concise explanation I've seen yet!
 
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My second solo IFR flight I spaced out and asked for confirmation I was cleared into the Bravo and the controller tore into me. I won't forget that one again.
 
Similarly, my second solo IFR - I filed for 2,500' :D Clearance delivery was a bit puzzled when I was getting my CRAFT. He kindly told me he would amend that to 3,000. Fortunately I wasn't torn into, but I felt dumb when it came across the wire.

IFR noob, for sure, with plenty of VFR habits that are hard to break.
 
One of the reasons I file IFR anytime I travel in an appropriate aircraft, no more worrying about airspace violations. Let ATC worry about it for you.
 
Salty said:
My second solo IFR flight I spaced out and asked for confirmation I was cleared into the Bravo and the controller tore into me. I won't forget that one again.
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That controller was a Richard Cranium, f him.
 
midwestpa24 said:
One of the reasons I file IFR anytime I travel in an appropriate aircraft, no more worrying about airspace violations. Let ATC worry about it for you.
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Trust, but verify. Today I was flying straight towards R-6601 and queried the controller. "Yes, that airspace is hot, but only R-6601A is hot, up to 4,500'.

Never hurts to ask. Controllers are people and people make mistakes. Had a mistake been made, he might get a slap on the wrist and I could be facing a sanction.

Note that this only applies to restricted airspace. Prohibited is another ball of wax. And class Bravo is invisible to IFR since they're designed to contain approaches for IFR traffic.
 
jordane93 said:
You’re IFR. Airspace is almost obsolete.
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Exactly. I remember flying IFR into the DC ADIZ a number of years ago (to KIAD), and it was so simple it was stupid. The VFR pilots had to memorise all these "gates" and other restrictions, and the only thing I had to know as an IFR pilot was to turn back instead of continuing to destination after a comms failure. Ditto for the outer ring of a presidential TFR around NYC a bit over 10 years ago — just follow clearances and, um, that's it.
 
Salty said:
It was the DFW bravo, mildly busy time, but not too bad, but he made sure everyone in Texas knew how stupid I was.
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Which airport or Quadrant of Regional?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Does an Instrument Departure clearance automatically include clearance into Bravo airspace where the it's depicted on the DP or do you need to hear the words, "cleared into Bravo" during the clearance readback?
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It doesn't "automatically include" clearance into Class B. It is clearance into Class B.
 
David Megginson said:
Exactly. I remember flying IFR into the DC ADIZ a number of years ago (to KIAD), and it was so simple it was stupid. The VFR pilots had to memorise all these "gates" and other restrictions, and the only thing I had to know as an IFR pilot was to turn back instead of continuing to destination after a comms failure. Ditto for the outer ring of a presidential TFR around NYC a bit over 10 years ago — just follow clearances and, um, that's it.
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And keep the squawk code when they turn you loose to advisory frequency.
 
I recently returned from KPIL (Padre Island) and filed direct to KMKO (Muskogee, OK) for a fuel stop. When I picked up my clearance before departure I was cleared direct KMKO as filed. In REALITY when I got to the DFW Bravo, I was vectored completely AROUND the BRAVO airspace and ATC informed me that I could NOT fly through the BRAVO on an IFR flight plan. First time that ever happened. I have flown through B airspace around the country many times, including this week on IFR flight plans. Discussed this with a hangar neighbor who happens to be a controller. His comment was that ATC was just being lazy, but it was a significant inconvenience for me.
 
Bill Haley said:
I recently returned from KPIL (Padre Island) and filed direct to KMKO (Muskogee, OK) for a fuel stop. When I picked up my clearance before departure I was cleared direct KMKO as filed. In REALITY when I got to the DFW Bravo, I was vectored completely AROUND the BRAVO airspace and ATC informed me that I could NOT fly through the BRAVO on an IFR flight plan. First time that ever happened. I have flown through B airspace around the country many times, including this week on IFR flight plans. Discussed this with a hangar neighbor who happens to be a controller. His comment was that ATC was just being lazy, but it was a significant inconvenience for me.
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It’s not a “cleared into the Bravo” issue…more likely the agreements between Center and Approach don’t allow the use of Bravo airspace for transient IFR traffic.
 
Bill Haley said:
I recently returned from KPIL (Padre Island) and filed direct to KMKO (Muskogee, OK) for a fuel stop. When I picked up my clearance before departure I was cleared direct KMKO as filed. In REALITY when I got to the DFW Bravo, I was vectored completely AROUND the BRAVO airspace and ATC informed me that I could NOT fly through the BRAVO on an IFR flight plan. First time that ever happened. I have flown through B airspace around the country many times, including this week on IFR flight plans. Discussed this with a hangar neighbor who happens to be a controller. His comment was that ATC was just being lazy, but it was a significant inconvenience for me.
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I've had that happen with both Montreal and Toronto terminal — if they're landing from a direction where I'll interfere with airline arrivals by putt-putting across their path at (say) 6,000 ft, they'll vector me waaaay around. It mostly depends on which way the wind is blowing that day.

That doesn't change the answer to the original question, though: you don't have to hear "cleared into class Bravo" airspace if you're on an IFR flight plan, but you do have to go where they tell you (or say "unable" and try to negotiate an alternative routing). They might not want to route a slow piston prop IFR through their class B if it's busy and/or they're short-staffed.
 
Larry in TN said:
He was saying that you couldn't fly through THEIR bravo. That is a facility decision, not a rule.
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Yes, I understand. Discussed this issue with a friend who is an airline pilot. He was very clear about how some ATC facilities are very helpful and user friendly while others are not very helpful or user friendly.
 
Jaybird180 said:
or do you need to hear the words, "cleared into Bravo"
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You don't even need to hear those words to enter Bravo while VFR...all that is required to enter is an explicit clearance (which you are on while IFR). While that is indeed the most common phrase while VFR, it is not the only one that gets you a magic ticket to enter.
 
Shawn said:
You don't even need to hear those words to enter Bravo while VFR...all that is required to enter is an explicit clearance (which you are on while IFR). While that is indeed the most common phrase while VFR, it is not the only one that gets you a magic ticket to enter.
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Some other examples?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Some other examples?
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I don't have it handy but aren't there some chief counsel opinions that a vector and altitude assignment that takes an aircraft into B airspace constitute a clearance into B airspace?
 
Skip Miller said:
(When taking off from a Bravo surface area) “cleared for takeoff.”
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I’ve taken off from a bravo airport a handful of times. The first time was at Dulles (KIAD). When I called ground for my taxi clearance, I was quite surprised when they said “cleared into the class Bravo” o.0
 
MauleSkinner said:
Some other examples?
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One I often get is "cleared as requested" when my request includes transition through Bravo.

Or if you are familiar with LAX transitions, "Cleared Coastal Route" is another (which takes you though LAX Bravo)

While "cleared into Bravo" is actually indeed in the ATC handbook and most common to hear...it is the "clearance" that is of regulatory importance, not just those three magic words in that specific sequence.

Nathan Miller said:
I’ve taken off from a bravo airport a handful of times. The first time was at Dulles (KIAD). When I called ground for my taxi clearance, I was quite surprised when they said “cleared into the class Bravo” o.0
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I find that funny that so many VFR pilots don't understand the nuance of the regs and it has been so drilled into them by CFIs and assume they need to hear those specific words that controllers now just preemptively state it rather than waiting for the inevitable inquiry. "Cleared of takeoff" is a clearance....

dmspilot said:
I don't have it handy but aren't there some chief counsel opinions that a vector and altitude assignment that takes an aircraft into B airspace constitute a clearance into B airspace?
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Negative, just the opposite. Chief Council is clear on this on in regards to VFR into Bravo...a vector is not and instruction and an instruction is not a clearance. Regardless of any instruction or vector per the FAA it still falls upon the Pilot to ensure they have received an explicit clearance to enter prior to entry.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2010/doremire - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf
 
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dmspilot said:
Yeah, I don't know why I thought that. Maybe it wasn't a letter, but I seem to remember a discussion in which it was argued that both an altitude combined with a heading assignment (but not just one or the other) could be interpreted as Class B clearance, but I believe that discussion was older than that letter—and perhaps inspired the author to write that letter to the FAA in the first place. Or maybe I read this letter and imagined such a discussion taking place before it was written.

I'll point out that in the 2010 letter, there was a very specific scenario laid out. The pilot expressed no intention of entering the Class B, then ATC assigned a heading and altitude for traffic, then the radio became congested. So it was not the intention of either party to have the aircraft enter Class B. The Chief Counsel's rationale partly based on the fact that a "vector only provides navigation information" and that "a vector is not an instruction" seems like a bizarre and contradictory use of logic, even if the conclusion is correct. A reading of the definition of a clearance in FAR 1.1 (which says that a clearance is for the purpose of preventing collision between aircraft) seems to poke more holes in their reasoning. However, I say these things only as a mental though experiment, not to disagree with anything that has been said about Class B clearances.
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Yeah. That’s one of the ones that inspired my signature. This situation has been taken up the food chain before and gone Judicial. The man in the long black robe with the big wood hammer said BS on the Counsels logic and set the defendant free.
 
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Bill Haley said:
I recently returned from KPIL (Padre Island) and filed direct to KMKO (Muskogee, OK) for a fuel stop. When I picked up my clearance before departure I was cleared direct KMKO as filed. In REALITY when I got to the DFW Bravo, I was vectored completely AROUND the BRAVO airspace and ATC informed me that I could NOT fly through the BRAVO on an IFR flight plan. First time that ever happened. I have flown through B airspace around the country many times, including this week on IFR flight plans. Discussed this with a hangar neighbor who happens to be a controller. His comment was that ATC was just being lazy, but it was a significant inconvenience for me.
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That is correct. There is an LOA in place between Fort Worth Center and DFW Approach to not allow transient IFR traffic to go through DFW Bravo. You can go over it VFR or you can go around it and stay IFR. To go over IFR, but to stay out of approach's airspace, so you're up in the FL. This has to do with the quantity of traffic between KDFW and KDAL coupled with the relative complexity of the arrival corridors. About the only time you can go into DFW Bravo on an IFR flight plan is if you're going to an airport somewhere inside, or if it's between 2300 and 0400 local.

Your controller friend should have known that he wasn't being lazy, but following their LOA.

Sidenote:
Are the letters of agreement publicly available? I'd like to read that one for a few reasons, mainly that I go over/around it weekly...any of the controllers on here care to chime in?
 
RKW said:
That is correct. There is an LOA in place between Fort Worth Center and DFW Approach to not allow transient IFR traffic to go through DFW Bravo. You can go over it VFR or you can go around it and stay IFR. To go over IFR, but to stay out of approach's airspace, so you're up in the FL. This has to do with the quantity of traffic between KDFW and KDAL coupled with the relative complexity of the arrival corridors. About the only time you can go into DFW Bravo on an IFR flight plan is if you're going to an airport somewhere inside, or if it's between 2300 and 0400 local.

Your controller friend should have known that he wasn't being lazy, but following their LOA.

Sidenote:
Are the letters of agreement publicly available? I'd like to read that one for a few reasons, mainly that I go over/around it weekly...any of the controllers on here care to chime in?
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LOA’s are hard to find. The FAA does not make them publicly available. I’ve heard of someone getting one through the Freedom of Information Act process but it took awhile.
 
Shawn said:
While "cleared into Bravo" is actually indeed in the ATC handbook and most common to hear...it is the "clearance" that is of regulatory importance, not just those three magic words in that specific sequence.

I find that funny that so many VFR pilots don't understand the nuance of the regs and it has been so drilled into them by CFIs and assume they need to hear those specific words that controllers now just preemptively state it rather than waiting for the inevitable inquiry. "Cleared of takeoff" is a clearance....
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I don't think it's just CFIs that drill this into our heads. I've been to several seminars hosted by ATC, the most recent being at Oshkosh on Saturday, and that is exactly how they worded it... "You must hear, 'cleared into the xyz bravo' in order to enter and if you don't, you should query us on it."
 
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