Instrument Checkride Oral Portion

[DBoss11]

Hi all,

I'm taking my instrument checkride in two weeks. I feel very prepared for my checkride, flying portion I feel good on, and I feel good on the oral for the most part as well. I was wondering if you all could do sort of a "stump the chump" or anything that could possibly come up on my IR ride and test me if I'm truly ready. Thanks!

 

[Larry in TN]

What conditions must be met to descend below MDA/DA on an instrument approach?

Under what conditions can/must you fly a charted procedure turn/course reversal and when can/must you fly the approach straight-in?

Given a clearance to cross a fix at 4,000', how would you calculate when to start your descent from 10,000' in your airplane? How would you check your progress during the descent?

How do you give a position report and when is one required?

 

[DBoss11]

What conditions must be met to descend below MDA/DA on an instrument approach?

Under what conditions can/must you fly a charted procedure turn/course reversal and when can/must you fly the approach straight-in?

Given a clearance to cross a fix at 4,000', how would you calculate when to start your descent from 10,000' in your airplane? How would you check your progress during the descent?

How do you give a position report and when is one required?

1. I can descent below the DA/MDA assuming 1. runway environment is insight, 2. I'm in a continuous and safe position to land using normal flight maneuvers, and 3. I have to have the required visibility for the approach.

2. Fly the procedure turn/course reversal unless - 1. cleared straight in (also answers the second part of this question), holding in lieu of PT, DME arc, being radar vectored, NoPT on chart, timed approach, or teardrop course reversal

3. Assuming a normal 500fpm descent, I have to drop 6000 feet, therefore I can plan for a 12 minute descent (I'd like to arrive at my crossing restriction early so I'd add a minute or two), and in terms of how far our, assuming a 90kt ground speed, I'd have to begin my descent 18 NM out. Using this descent rate, I can time two minutes, in those two minutes I should have dropped 1000 feet and have covered 3NM, and I can adjust my descent rate accordingly.

4. Position report required over compulsary reporting points or when otherwise requested by ATC. Give position report by saying aircraft ID, position, time, altitude, ETA at and the name of the next reporting point, and following reporting point after that, as well as any applicable remarks.

 

[flyingron]

My oral pretty much started with: You planned a trip, now show me that you, the aircraft, the weather, etc.. are now legal to fly the thing. I did a pretty good job of explaining it all. The one question inserted was "what are you going to do if you lose comms just after takeoff." I parrotted the stock answer, but allowed I'd likely just return to the departure airport rather than proceeding nordo via cleared/expected/field route and altitudes. There was one question during the preflight on aircraft systems, but I guess I answered it completely enough he gave up. Off we flew.

The only strange thing I got on the ride was the way he put me into unusual attitudes. He had me close my eyes and then gave me a bunch of turns and stuff to execute. It was very unnerving. After he'd got me to cause the plane to go into a bad attitude he let me open my eyes and recover.

The other one was in the middle of the partial panel approach, he asked if the autopilot would still work if the vacuum died. I said yes (in fact, the HSI wouldn't have failed either). He says, "why don't you use it." So I did. After a few minutes on the approach he said "you probably could do a better job hand flying" (it was gusty and the autopilot hunts a bit), so I went back to hand flying.

Get out, shake hands, had my instructor take our picture, get my temporary.

 

[Larry in TN]

Pretty good! I'd recommend that you know where those answers come from, i.e. where in the Regs, where in the AIM, etc. Judging by your answers, I think you do.

1. runway environment is insight

Did a little deeper on that one. The reg is specific about what qualifies. There's also a situation where you can descend below MDA/DA but still can't land. Be able to explain that.

3. I have to have the required visibility for the approach.

What kind of visibility? Reported prevailing vis from ATIS, ASOS, Tower? RVR? etc?

4. Position report required over compulsory reporting points

Correct, as far as it goes, but something important was left out.

Bonus points for being able to describe where position reporting is still commonly used today and where you might need to make one as a GA pilot today.

Here's one that I doubt you'd ever get on a checkride but something I like to ask. Literally, what are the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)?

So far, you're doing really well.

 

[Arrow76R]

Congrats!!! But, as always, the instrument rating is a license to learn...

 

[DBoss11]

Pretty good! I'd recommend that you know where those answers come from, i.e. where in the Regs, where in the AIM, etc. Judging by your answers, I think you do.


Did a little deeper on that one. The reg is specific about what qualifies. There's also a situation where you can descend below MDA/DA but still can't land. Be able to explain that.


What kind of visibility? Reported prevailing vis from ATIS, ASOS, Tower? RVR? etc?


Correct, as far as it goes, but something important was left out.

Bonus points for being able to describe where position reporting is still commonly used today and where you might need to make one as a GA pilot today.

Here's one that I doubt you'd ever get on a checkride but something I like to ask. Literally, what are the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)?

So far, you're doing really well.

On the first one - threshold/markings/lights, runway/markings/lights, touchdown zone/markings/lights. To answer the second part, if I see the approach lights, but not the red terminating bars I can descend below MDA/DA to 100ft above my TDZE, if I see the approach lights and red terminating bars I'm good to go.

In terms of visibility - correct me if I'm wrong but REPORTED visibility can be derived from an ATIS/ASOS, or tower report for RVR, but ultimately its up to me as the PIC to determine if I have the required flight visibility for the approach.

Third one - when not in radar contact?

Fouth bonus one - I'm going to guess in the Utah/Colorado/Rocky Mountain area

And Instrument Flight Rules - basically requirements/regulations for flying in situations where flight under visual conditions is not possible.

 

[KeepWatch]

There's several good videos on the instrument checkride, most of them focused on the oral, posted on YouTube. Watch them in your spare time, and keep notes on anything you couldn't answer right away. That will allow you to be refreshed on the stuff you already know while helping to be efficient in doubling back on stuff you've forgotten. Also, there's a good cheat sheet over at Pilots Cafe (https://pilotscafe.com/download/IFRQuickReviewSheets.pdf).

I passed one week ago today. Oral went pretty smooth.

 

[Dave Arata]

Focus on lost com procedures. (AVEF & MEA). You will likely be asked fairly in depth scenario based questions on it.

 

[Larry in TN]

In terms of visibility - correct me if I'm wrong but REPORTED visibility can be derived from an ATIS/ASOS, or tower report for RVR, but ultimately its up to me as the PIC to determine if I have the required flight visibility for the approach.

Flight visibility is the answer. ATIS/ASOS/Tower visibility is "prevailing" visibility and will often differ significantly from what you'll see at MDA/DA. RVR is usually a much better indication of what your flight visibility will be at DA but it isn't always the same.

So, on a low ILS approach, how do you know if you have the required flight visibility at DA?

when not in radar contact?

Yes, 14 CFR 91.183. Also, see the list of reports that should be made in the AIM. It list some that are all the time and others that are when not in radar contact.

I'm going to guess in the Utah/Colorado/Rocky Mountain area

Right, below radar coverage. These days, in the CONUS, that's going to be in mountainous areas.

Most of the Earth's surface is still non-radar. Non-radar procedures are used, often with position reports over HF radios. Fly from the New York area to the Caribbean and your airline flight will be talking to New York ARINC on HF radios relaying position reports. Those of us who learn to fly IFR in the US are spoiled by our excellent system of ATC radar coverage.

And Instrument Flight Rules - basically requirements/regulations for flying in situations where flight under visual conditions is not possible.

14 CFR 91.167 - 91.199. It even has the heading "Instrument Flight Rules". Right before that, 14 CFR 91.151 - 91.165 are the "Visual Flight Rules". I think it's important to know because those two relatively short sections of the FARs are VFR and IFR. That's where you look when you have a question about the requirements of VFR or IFR.

 

[midwestpa24]

Given we are in the upper midwest, icing is a major concern for IFR pilots.

1. Can you fly in icing conditions?

2. What constitutes known icing conditions?

3. What deicing equipment does your aircraft have?

4. What would you do if you encountered icing conditions?

5. How can you determine if icing conditions may exist?

 

[DBoss11]

Flight visibility is the answer. ATIS/ASOS/Tower visibility is "prevailing" visibility and will often differ significantly from what you'll see at MDA/DA. RVR is usually a much better indication of what your flight visibility will be at DA but it isn't always the same.

So, on a low ILS approach, how do you know if you have the required flight visibility at DA?


Yes, 14 CFR 91.183. Also, see the list of reports that should be made in the AIM. It list some that are all the time and others that are when not in radar contact.


Right, below radar coverage. These days, in the CONUS, that's going to be in mountainous areas.

Most of the Earth's surface is still non-radar. Non-radar procedures are used, often with position reports over HF radios. Fly from the New York area to the Caribbean and your airline flight will be talking to New York ARINC on HF radios relaying position reports. Those of us who learn to fly IFR in the US are spoiled by our excellent system of ATC radar coverage.


14 CFR 91.167 - 91.199. It even has the heading "Instrument Flight Rules". Right before that, 14 CFR 91.151 - 91.165 are the "Visual Flight Rules". I think it's important to know because those two relatively short sections of the FARs are VFR and IFR. That's where you look when you have a question about the requirements of VFR or IFR.

How do I know if I have the required flight visibility? Only way to determine flight visibility is from the cockpit, so it would be my PIC determination to determine the visibility

Also for the list of reports:

MARVELOUSVFRC500 - Missed approach, airspeed +/- 10kts or 5% of filed, reaching a holding fix, VFR on top, ETA change +- 3min (non radar), leaving a holding fix, outer marker (non radar), unforecasted weather, safety of flight, vacating a FL/altitude, final apch fix (non radar), radio/navigation equip failure, compulsary reporting points (non radar), unable to climb 500fpm

 

[midwestpa24]

How do I know if I have the required flight visibility? Only way to determine flight visibility is from the cockpit, so it would be my PIC determination to determine the visibility

Bingo! No one can judge the flight visibility except for you. Something to keep in mind.

 

[Larry in TN]

How do I know if I have the required flight visibility? Only way to determine flight visibility is from the cockpit, so it would be my PIC determination to determine the visibility

What I'm getting at is, how do you do that?

Lets say you land on a foggy day with the tower reporting 1600 RVR. As you shutdown at the FBO there's a bored FAA inspector who decides to give you a ramp check. He asks you how you knew you had the required flight visibility when the next based ground-based system was reporting less than CAT I minimums. What can you tell him?

 

[DBoss11]

Given we are in the upper midwest, icing is a major concern for IFR pilots.

1. Can you fly in icing conditions?

2. What constitutes known icing conditions?

3. What deicing equipment does your aircraft have?

4. What would you do if you encountered icing conditions?

5. How can you determine if icing conditions may exist?

1. I cannot fly in icing conditions as the C172 is not certified for FIKI
2. Known icing conditions are conditions where icing may be expected to be observed or reported
3. No deicing equipment, but I do have antiicing equipment in the form of pitot heat
4. Get out of the icing conditions - climb/descend below the freezing level, get out of any visible moisture. In terms of actual flying, if I build up ice then best course of action is to keep my speeds up, keep the airplane clean as long as possible to avoid further ice buildup, and land.
5. Check for freezing AIRMETS, PIREPs, various weather charts available to me, check if there's visible moisture and temps below 10C, etc.

 

[DBoss11]

What I'm getting at is, how do you do that?

Lets say you land on a foggy day with the tower reporting 1600 RVR. As you shutdown at the FBO there's a bored FAA inspector who decides to give you a ramp check. He asks you how you knew you had the required flight visibility when the next based ground-based system was reporting less than CAT I minimums. What can you tell him?

I saw the thousand footers and the next set of touchdown zone markings beyond them = 1500 feet of visibility plus my distance from the runway at the DA means I had the visibility.

 

[Larry in TN]

I saw the thousand footers and the next set of touchdown zone markings beyond them = 1500 feet of visibility plus my distance from the runway at the DA means I had the visibility.

Exactly!

Look at the descriptions of the various approach lighting systems in the AIM. Those lighting systems were designed, in part, to give you the distance references you need when used in conjunction with the runway markings.

 

[midwestpa24]

1. I cannot fly in icing conditions as the C172 is not certified for FIKI - Easy enough
2. Known icing conditions are conditions where icing may be expected to be observed or reported - Observed and reported is key. No PIREPs = No Known Icing from a legal standpoint. Doesn't mean there isn't ice, just means it isn't "Known"
3. No deicing equipment, but I do have antiicing equipment in the form of pitot heat - Good, when do you use pitot heat? Also don't forget windshield defrost. Just because you aren't FIKI and avoid known ice, doesn't mean you may never encounter it.
4. Get out of the icing conditions - climb/descend below the freezing level, get out of any visible moisture. In terms of actual flying, if I build up ice then best course of action is to keep my speeds up, keep the airplane clean as long as possible to avoid further ice buildup, and land. - Real World Scenario for you. You are above an overcast layer inbound to your destination. Temperature is below freezing, but there is no other traffic in the area so no PIREPs. The initial altitude for the approach is 3,000 MSL, but you are just above the tops at 4,000. ATC clears you to descend to 3,000, direct the IAF, once established on the approach, cleared for the approach. When do you descend?
5. Check for freezing AIRMETS, PIREPs, various weather charts available to me, check if there's visible moisture and temps below 10C, etc. Learn how to use the Skew-T chart. Aside from PIREPs, it is one of the best ways to predict ice. Nice thing is with the Skew-T, you can not only predict ice, you can figure out if a certain altitude may work better. There may be ice at 5,000, but not at 4,000 or 6,000.

Our DPE's focus was not just on the rote book knowledge, but how you are going to apply it in the real world to not get dead.

 

[midwestpa24]

What I'm getting at is, how do you do that?

Lets say you land on a foggy day with the tower reporting 1600 RVR. As you shutdown at the FBO there's a bored FAA inspector who decides to give you a ramp check. He asks you how you knew you had the required flight visibility when the next based ground-based system was reporting less than CAT I minimums. What can you tell him?

There is nothing in Part 91 that prevents a pilot from attempting an approach regardless of the reported vis/ceiling (Part 121 and 135 requires you have minimums to even shoot the approach). So obviously if you landed, you had to have the required in flight visibility to see the runway at minimums otherwise you would have gone missed...right?

 

[AlphaMike]

[QUOTE="Larry in TN,


Right, below radar coverage. These days, in the CONUS, that's going to be in mountainous areas.

Most of the Earth's surface is still non-radar. Non-radar procedures are used, often with position reports over HF radios. Fly from the New York area to the Caribbean and your airline flight will be talking to New York ARINC on HF radios relaying position reports. Those of us who learn to fly IFR in the US are spoiled by our excellent system of ATC radar coverage.

One other somewhat common position report happens at class D airports. Sometimes they don’t have radar. You will get handed off to tower and approach will tell you radar services terminated. You will need to report to the tower when you are at the final approach fix. They usually tell you this when you make the initial call to tower, but not always.

14 CFR 91.167 - 91.199. It even has the heading "Instrument Flight Rules". Right before that, 14 CFR 91.151 - 91.165 are the "Visual Flight Rules". I think it's important to know because those two relatively short sections of the FARs are VFR and IFR. That's where you look when you have a question about the requirements of VFR or IFR.[/QUOTE]

 

[MauleSkinner]

I saw the thousand footers and the next set of touchdown zone markings beyond them = 1500 feet of visibility plus my distance from the runway at the DA means I had the visibility.

Exactly!

Look at the descriptions of the various approach lighting systems in the AIM. Those lighting systems were designed, in part, to give you the distance references you need when used in conjunction with the runway markings.

Not exactly...at DA, you’re more than 1800 feet from the threshold...you won’t even see the runway at legal RVR minimums. That’s one reason we have the 100 ft thing with the approach lights.

at 100 feet, you’re going to be about 2000 feet from the touchdown zone markers, so you still won’t see them at that point with an 1800 ft RVR.

Bonus question...Nonprecision approach to a 600 AGL MDA. Can you still descend to 100 AGL if all you see are the approach lights at MDA?

 

[DBoss11]

Our DPE's focus was not just on the rote book knowledge, but how you are going to apply it in the real world to not get dead.

I really like the scenario you posted, here’s what I’d do - first of all I’m an idiot for getting into that situation with poor planning, but let’s say the weather abruptly changed to that overcast layer at 3000, I’d tell ATC that I am diverting, still have 45 mins of fuel on board assuming, plus fuel to alternate assuming I filed one, and would request their assistance in finding an airport not showing the overcast layer.

 

[Larry in TN]

There is nothing in Part 91 that prevents a pilot from attempting an approach regardless of the reported vis/ceiling (Part 121 and 135 requires you have minimums to even shoot the approach). So obviously if you landed, you had to have the required in flight visibility to see the runway at minimums otherwise you would have gone missed...right?

I didn't ask anything about being legal to start the approach. I asked how you determine if you have the required flight visibility at MDA/DA. "Well, I must have or I wouldn't have landed" isn't very convincing and one might conclude from such an answer that you don't have a system for making that determination. Being able to say that you saw something specific, and knowing that it was farther away than the required flight visibility, shows that you did make the required determination and you did have the required visibility.

That’s one reason we have the 100 ft thing with the approach lights.

He already gave that answer in a previous post. The point is that you can, and should, use the known distances for runway lighting and markings to make the determination.

 

[AggieMike88]

Some secret sauce about holding patterns....

 

[AggieMike88]

Other really good IFR videos from Jason Miller....

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+finer+points+ifr

 

[WannFly]

After reading this thread I have realized I still got long ways to go before I even think about the ride ... sigh

 

[AggieMike88]

After reading this thread I have realized I still got long ways to go before I even think about the ride ... sigh

How far along are you?

 

[midwestpa24]

I really like the scenario you posted, here’s what I’d do - first of all I’m an idiot for getting into that situation with poor planning, but let’s say the weather abruptly changed to that overcast layer at 3000, I’d tell ATC that I am diverting, still have 45 mins of fuel on board assuming, plus fuel to alternate assuming I filed one, and would request their assistance in finding an airport not showing the overcast layer.

Here is something to stimulate your thought process. Do you have to descend to 3,000 into the cloud deck immediately?

 

[KeepWatch]

After reading this thread I have realized I still got long ways to go before I even think about the ride ... sigh

You may not ever feel truly ready, but I would encourage you to keep at it over the long haul of training........ read articles, watch videos, click on forums. It all meshes together to give you a better understanding of what's going on and gives those rote memorized items better places to fit. I don't have time to watch AggieMike's Youtube videos he posted, but I just clicked all of them to add to my "Watch Later" list on my account. Next time I'm riding somewhere or eating a meal alone, pop it up and there it is.

 

[DBoss11]

Here is something to stimulate your thought process. Do you have to descend to 3,000 into the cloud deck immediately?

No, but going off the assumption that it’s a solid overcast layer throughout the area and there’s no holes then I’d do what I said in the previous answer

 

[midwestpa24]

No, but going off the assumption that it’s a solid overcast layer throughout the area and there’s no holes then I’d do what I said in the previous answer

Certainly a safe answer, but this is the instrument rating after all. An overcast layer is not uncommon.

But back to the scenario, and I've been in this situation, you don't have to descend immediately. Especially if you are concerned about the possibility of ice in the clouds, there is no reason you have to drum along in the clouds while getting established, doing procedure turns or course reversals. Let ATC know you'd like to stay high until on the approach.

Where people get in trouble with ice is they don't take action to get away from it. They are either too worried about sticking to the "plan", or have too much trust in their de-ice/anti-ice systems. Even in a FIKI equipped plane, if you encounter ice you better be ready with Plan B, and be working on Plan C.

Always have an out.

 

[MauleSkinner]

He already gave that answer in a previous post. The point is that you can, and should, use the known distances for runway lighting and markings to make the determination.

True, but if he’s able to see 3/4 mile (his example), he’s probably not going to have to defend his position.

 

[WannFly]

How far along are you?

Have been staring and stopping for about 2 years now. About to start again when Covid happened, thinking of restarting soon enough, still evaluating this virus situation. I can get the written over with, but don’t want too much gap between written and the ride.