Instrument check ride discontinuance

mondtster said:
I wonder if the DPE is using this as a teaching moment for aircraft owners. I know I would, if I was in that position.

Far too many owners do not understand their obligations when it comes to properly caring for and maintaining an airplane in an airworthy condition. The troubling part to me is that they have no problem flying them in this condition, even when they know it isn’t right.
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You are assuming that any non-owner pilot who cannot immediately prove that the owner complied with the ADs must be operating an aircraft in violation of the ADs?

I'm not sure it's reasonable for a pilot to check that all ADs have been complied with. Many of them refer to specific material conditions which a pilot will have no knowledge of. For example AD 86-17-01 not apply if the alternator is rated for over 90 amps. It is unlikely that a pilot flying an aircraft they do not own has knowledge of the alternator amp rating and therefore has no knowledge of whether or not the AD is applicable or not. That is probably why owners and operators are required to comply with 91.403, not pilots.

I'm not at all impressed by a DPE who wants to waste time reviewing the records for all 77 ADs that might or might not apply to the 45 year old PA-28 that I'm flying. On the other hand, I get all passive aggressive with things like this, so I'm likely to jump into the review with both feet and insist that we not fly until we have actually reviewed every one of the ADs together. That probably takes hours and means we run out of time and that I get to take up yet more of their time on another day, maybe more than one day, to do the actual checkride that I paid them for. Their call, I hope it doesn't impact their revenue stream too much.
 
AndrewX said:
AD's are available online. Maybe next time go to this link:
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/airworthiness_directives/search/?q=lance

It's worth a try. "Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight."
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I break this reg constantly - I never check the meteor shower schedule, for instance. I also don't know the aluminum gauge on the trim tab, how much the right front seat weighs, or the freezing level in August when transiting Florida. Ashamed to admit I don't do a W&B when blasting off solo in a 172, or check the takeoff performance in that situation on a 10,000' runway.

Always thought this was an inane blurb, or, at best, just incompetent writing. At worst, a tool to slap someone with when nothing else fits, but the Feds want a hanging.
 
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Man my private pilot checkride examiner (who was a bit of a jerk to be honest) was really big on ADs. I had to show him all the ADs, when the next recurring one was due, etc. On top of showing him the usual stuff like annual, ELT, etc. This was a flight school airplane and so it took me a while to go through the maintenance binder and find the latest AD list. He just sat there while I searched for it haha.

So for my IFR checkride I’m gonna make damn sure I got it all laid out for this examiner so it’s clear as day. I’ve already got a nice Excel spreadsheet with all the ADs listed, how they were complied with, when the next recurring ones are due, etc. I got sticky tabs in the logbooks so I can show him everything in case he wants to go nuts with it.
 
CC268 said:
Man my private pilot checkride examiner (who was a bit of a jerk to be honest) was really big on ADs. I had to show him all the ADs, when the next recurring one was due, etc. On top of showing him the usual stuff like annual, ELT, etc. This was a flight school airplane and so it took me a while to go through the maintenance binder and find the latest AD list. He just sat there while I searched for it haha.

So for my IFR checkride I’m gonna make damn sure I got it all laid out for this examiner so it’s clear as day. I’ve already got a nice Excel spreadsheet with all the ADs listed, how they were complied with, when the next recurring ones are due, etc. I got sticky tabs in the logbooks so I can show him everything in case he wants to go nuts with it.
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I’d do that, and simply say yes and hand it to him if an examiner asked to review each one. I’ve already done it and I know my plane is airworthy. If he wants to review, he can do it while I surf POA.
 
Those stating that the last annual covered all ADs must not have heard of repetitive ADs that could come due between annuals.
 
How much time does it take an IA to properly research ADs? Seems like having a good list would save him time (and the owner money) every year.

As @SkyDog58 pointed out, it would also help the owner to not overfly a repetitive AD.

It isn't just about the checkride.
 
Sundancer said:
I break this reg constantly - I never check the meteor shower schedule, for instance. I also don't know the aluminum gauge on the trim tab, how much the right front seat weighs, or the freezing level in August when transiting Florida. Ashamed to admit I don't do a W&B when blasting off solo in a 172, or check the takeoff performance in that situation on a 10,000' runway.

Always thought this was an inane blurb, or, at best, just incompetent writing. At worst, a tool to slap someone with when nothing else fits, but the Feds want a hanging.
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Seriously, I've always thought that is exactly why it was worded in such an open-ended way.

Again, I think everyone can agree that the DPE is within his rights to ask for the AD list, the question is whether it's reasonable for ALL applicants to know that they should bring it just in case. Frankly this is the first time I've heard of a DPE asking for it. Sure, I have one and could have brought it to the checkride - but I would never have thought to do that for either of my rides, and was never advised to do so by my CFI or CFII. If, as it seems now, the applicant should have with him/her the entire box of documentation for the aircraft, then that's something that should be taught in the course of the checkride prep.

The pilot making sure that the aircraft is airworthy before flight is irrelevant - who checks every AD before every flight? Making a reasonable effort to stay on top of the AD list between annuals is about as much as I think anyone could reasonably be asked to do.
 
I understand why the DPE is asking for the list, and it's known he does this. As I've said, it was outside the flight school who does have AD lists for their planes. But I do think that an applicant shouldn't have to document, put tabs in the maintenance logbooks, and nor should the instructor. Seems extreme. There's enough going on for the applicant and the instructor in preparation for the check ride. But, it's the DPE's prerogative to do so. I get that. I just felt bad for that woman as she was no doubt prepared and proficient for the ride, now she'll have to fly additional training flights perhaps until she can reschedule with the DPE. Hopefully it's soon but the DPE is an airline pilot so it may tale a while.
 
mscard88 said:
I understand why the DPE is asking for the list, and it's known he does this. As I've said, it was outside the flight school who does have AD lists for their planes. But I do think that an applicant shouldn't have to document, put tabs in the maintenance logbooks, and nor should the instructor. Seems extreme. There's enough going on for the applicant and the instructor in preparation for the check ride. But, it's the DPE's prerogative to do so. I get that.
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Why didn't the flight school have a list? :stirpot:
 
Every military or commercial aircraft, even measly little single-pilot 135 operators, have a simple binder in the cockpit showing the inspection status of repetitive ADs, etc. As noted elsewhere here, it's the owner's responsibility to maintain the same status, though not necessarily in the cockpit. It shouldn't take any pilot more than a minute or two to review the document and determine the airworthiness of the plane. Common courtesy dictates an applicant would want the examiner to feel safe in the supplied aircraft even if it isn't a requirement in the test guide (ACS), which it is. As an applicant, CFI and DPE over the past 50 years this is not new news. Hearing the above complaints about it just boggles the mind. Sheesh.
 
dtuuri said:
Every military or commercial aircraft, even measly little single-pilot 135 operators, have a simple binder in the cockpit showing the inspection status of repetitive ADs, etc. As noted elsewhere here, it's the owner's responsibility to maintain the same status, though not necessarily in the cockpit. It shouldn't take any pilot more than a minute or two to review the document and determine the airworthiness of the plane. Common courtesy dictates an applicant would want the examiner to feel safe in the supplied aircraft even if it isn't a requirement in the test guide (ACS), which it is. As an applicant, CFI and DPE over the past 50 years this is not new news. Hearing the above complaints about it just boggles the mind. Sheesh.
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I've never had an applicant that had to provide a list, and those were from '78 to'90, but I haven't had any applicants since I was flying at an airline. A couple coming up in the near future though. Not saying it hasn't been this way as you said, personally haven't seen it before or heard of it.
 
So I have to know every AD that's even come about in the 55 years since my aircraft ws manufactured, and have to be able to provide cogent documentation of them at the whim of an examiner. No wonder nobody want's to be a pilot anymore.
 
steingar said:
So I have to know every AD that's even come about in the 55 years since my aircraft ws manufactured, and have to be able to provide cogent documentation of them at the whim of an examiner. No wonder nobody want's to be a pilot anymore.
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How is it a "whim" when the the ACS specifically tells the examiner to evaluate one knowledge area per task and one of the three listed is (my emphasis):
"IFR airworthiness, to include aircraft inspection requirements and
required equipment for IFR flight."​
How tough is it to point to the last annual inspection and a listing of ADs issued since then, including recurring ones? Heck, even though this is technically owners' responsibility, most mechanics make up such a list on behalf of the owner and clip it to the back of the logbook. All an owner needs do is understand how to read it--a skill which is tested at the private level--and add FAA notices of any new AD notes.
 
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steingar said:
So I have to know every AD that's even come about in the 55 years since my aircraft ws manufactured, and have to be able to provide cogent documentation of them at the whim of an examiner. No wonder nobody want's to be a pilot anymore.
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Your IA is either not ensuring that they're done or spending more of your money than necessary if you don't already have this list in your logbook.
 
If the plane is in annual, rational act would be to check for ADs since the last annual. This case is kinda asinine - sure, the DPE could have some trepidation jumping in an airplane he doesn't know - it's his life, too. But this stuff begins to approach the absurd.
 
I routinely use 4 DPEs from both the Nashville and BHM FSDOs. They ALL require actual maintenance logs (not photocopies) as well as a coherent response to "How is AD compliance tracked for this airplane? Show me". They may be there to evaluate the student, but they still have to get in your junk and fly and they might just want to be sure that things like engine mount nacelle channel inspections have been done at the appropriate (non-annual) intervals. Perfectly reasonable and should only take a few minutes to prepare if your IA is actually tracking compliance properly.
 
Sundancer said:
If the plane is in annual, rational act would be to check for ADs since the last annual. This case is kinda asinine - sure, the DPE could have some trepidation jumping in an airplane he doesn't know - it's his life, too. But this stuff begins to approach the absurd.
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That doesn't account for the repetitive ADs at all.

It's this kind of misunderstanding that makes it truly relevant on checkrides.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Where do you find all ADs?
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The ADs can be found on the FAA website. It is free to look them up there, however they may reference a manufacturer service bulletin or other document that is not as easy to find. Many (probably most) IAs have a subscription to one of a few different services that will make sorting the ADs easier and will also provide access to many of the referenced service bulletins.
 
There is a DPE in SC that likes to sit down with his laptop and pull up the list of ADs on your plane and have you show him they have been addressed. I've not used him but it is a known behavior of his.
 
Airworthiness is one of the worst taught area's in flight training.

Daddy probably has no "system" in place other than what the IA does once a year, which is typical from what I have seen. As long as the signature is in the book once a year, it is all good, right? :rolleyes:
 
JAWS said:
Airworthiness is one of the worst taught area's in flight training.

Daddy probably has no "system" in place other than what the IA does once a year, which is typical from what I have seen. As long as the signature is in the book once a year, it is all good, right? :rolleyes:
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Part of the problem with teaching how to determine airworthiness to pilots and owners is that it is often done by a CFI that has never owned an airplane themselves nor has a ton of aviation related experience in the first place.

It would be nice if we had more flight instructors who were also mechanics that could really do a good job educating people on aircraft systems and airworthiness subjects. I think a lot of the confusion in these areas might disappear.
 
JAWS said:
Airworthiness is one of the worst taught area's in flight training.
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Agreed. An unfortunate fact that has been demonstrated in my dealings with numerous pilots. It also shows in many of the threads on here. I think that many pilots due a great job in learning how the aircraft systems work but far fewer learn the rules and standard practices that ensure continued airworthiness. As you state, it just does not seem to be given proper emphasis in training.
 
I'm somewhat puzzled by some of the posts in this thread as AD compliance was addressed during every checkride I've had. Usually I'd have a list generated by the IA in the maintenance logbook. Recurring ADs would be verified by me double checking the tach time in the aircraft and having that number for the DPE when he asked.
 
Talked with a CFI at the flight school today, and he said the DPE is also a IA.
 
Or, fix what appears to be a silly ass system; if it's the long term mess it appears to be, with a half century of owners not grasping their "obligations", then we got a bad design. . .and puts the load on the examiners, sounds like.
 
steingar said:
So I have to know every AD that's even come about in the 55 years since my aircraft ws manufactured, and have to be able to provide cogent documentation of them at the whim of an examiner. No wonder nobody want's to be a pilot anymore.
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That's quite an over-exaggeration. The applicant should have maintenance logs available which demonstrate compliance with all active ADs. They are not required to even know the content of the AD, nor obtain the bulletin containing the AD itself, but rather have evidence that a mechanic signed off on the AD's compliance.

I see nothing wrong with what the DPE did.
 
mondtster said:
The ADs can be found on the FAA website. It is free to look them up there, however they may reference a manufacturer service bulletin or other document that is not as easy to find. Many (probably most) IAs have a subscription to one of a few different services that will make sorting the ADs easier and will also provide access to many of the referenced service bulletins.
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Thanks. If I could ask a follow up, who is it that generates AD's? I am trying to figure out from the posts here. It seems these are per aircraft model (and I'm guessing may even be a range of manufactured years? Like a Cessna 172 SP made between 1962-1973 etc.?) but as an example would it be generated by Cessna to address a problem, then vetted by FAA and at that point FAA generates an AD? Or do the manufacturers create them and the FAA just maintain the list of (suggested, or mandated?) AD's?

I'm seeing a huge whole in my ground school understanding. As many know I'm in Norway, but I can't imagine (Chicago convention is followed here, etc.) it is any or much different here. Going to look into the regs, and in my course material to see what they may be called, or of it was just something I glossed over.
 
when i have a check ride, i make my DPE pick me up in the airplane..(logistically its a 15 min flight or a 1.5 hr drive) so when he asks if the plane is air worthy, i say "well you flew it over here so it must be right?" it does not amuse him
 
mscard88 said:
Man she was hot too, and a dentist. Made my teeth hurt looking at her in those tight jeans. :)
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This post is absolutely worthless without pics. Furthermore the FAR explicitly states that proof of AD's are NOT required when sectional leggings are worn during the instrument checkride. [I think it says that somewhere...still looking]


img_4992-png.58825
 
LongRoadBob said:
Thanks. If I could ask a follow up, who is it that generates AD's? I am trying to figure out from the posts here. It seems these are per aircraft model (and I'm guessing may even be a range of manufactured years? Like a Cessna 172 SP made between 1962-1973 etc.?) but as an example would it be generated by Cessna to address a problem, then vetted by FAA and at that point FAA generates an AD? Or do the manufacturers create them and the FAA just maintain the list of (suggested, or mandated?) AD's?

I'm seeing a huge whole in my ground school understanding. As many know I'm in Norway, but I can't imagine (Chicago convention is followed here, etc.) it is any or much different here. Going to look into the regs, and in my course material to see what they may be called, or of it was just something I glossed over.
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The FAA issues ADs, sometimes based on a SB from the manufacturer.
 
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