Instructor time for 100 mile cross country night flight?

Jeff Szlauko

Jeff Szlauko

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ChopperJeff
Need to get my 100+ mile night cross country flight in, so I texted my CFI and asked him about his availability. He said his fee for this flight will be $240. He charges $80/hour, so he's looking at 3 hours.
I got to thinking about this, and went to SkyVector to get an idea of the flying time, which turns out is 27 minutes one way. So, even if one were to round that up to half and hour, then throw on another half hour for runup and possible longer flight, it's a total of 1.5 hours flying. Seems to me a reasonable amount of instructor time might be a half hour on top of this, as there will be some going over of the flight plan.
That said, seems 2 hours of instructor time would be sufficient.
Am I just way off here?
 
Are you talking about the private pilot night XC?

Does he always quote flat rate fees per flight?

I'm interested to know where freelance instructors are charging $80/hr, maybe I should move.
 
dmspilot said:
I'm interested to know where freelance instructors are charging $80/hr, maybe I should move.
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They are located in places where rents are $5k/month for a 2br apartment :)
 
tell him where he can stuff his $80/hour
 
wouldn't hurt to ask why he's charging that amount. could always be a misunderstanding on his part.
 
CFI is $75 an hour around here.

30 minutes prior going over route and info
1.5 hour flight time
30 minutes after flight recap

What I learned is if you have an instructor that just jumps in the plane right when you take off and then jumps out once the engine is off you need to find another instructor.
 
I’d question why he’s throwing out a dollar figure ahead of time. You should be paying him based on the Hobbs you fly and any ground time you accrue. Hard to determine that until it’s all said and done.

Sounds like a milker to me.
 
One reason his upfront fee of $240 threw me for a loop was because of an experience I had once before.

On one previous lesson, the Hobbs meter read 1.2 hours, and yet he charged me for 3 hours of his time. And, it wasn't like we did any ground school work or anything, or even had a post flight talk. In fact, for about a half hour before he got in the plane, he was chatting with someone as I checked out the plane, and tried to figure out the route he threw at me at the last second.
 
Jeff Szlauko said:
On one previous lesson, the Hobbs meter read 1.2 hours, and yet he charged me for 3 hours of his time. And, it wasn't like we did any ground school work or anything, or even had a post flight talk. In fact, for about a half hour before he got in the plane, he was chatting with someone as I checked out the plane, and tried to figure out the route he threw at me at the last second.
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So... does this CFI charge a 3hr minimum flat rate?

Sounds to me like he’s taking advantage of you. I wouldn’t go for that.
 
One question...in order to qualify for a night flight (just your run of the mill VFR private pilot), does you have to take off at least 1 hour past sunset? I ask as he's looking at meeting at 7:30, and that's sunset time. So, if we have to wait an hour, there's one hour right there. Seems like a long time to chat about a flight from A to B and back.
 
Jeff Szlauko said:
Need to get my 100+ mile night cross country flight in, so I texted my CFI and asked him about his availability. He said his fee for this flight will be $240. He charges $80/hour, so he's looking at 3 hours.
I got to thinking about this, and went to SkyVector to get an idea of the flying time, which turns out is 27 minutes one way. So, even if one were to round that up to half and hour, then throw on another half hour for runup and possible longer flight, it's a total of 1.5 hours flying. Seems to me a reasonable amount of instructor time might be a half hour on top of this, as there will be some going over of the flight plan.
That said, seems 2 hours of instructor time would be sufficient.
Am I just way off here?
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1.5 hours flight time, he may want to do some full-stop landings and taxi-backs with you - could go over that. I've had students take a LOT longer than they thought it would take - one was almost 2 hours longer for the whole deal (poor flight planning, then messed up on some navigation and we ended up adding an extra 45 minutes because he "knew" where he was and I had to let him figure out he was off course by a significant margin).
.5 preflight (hopefully he will also spend some quality debriefing time even if it's only 5-15 minutes) and...
by experience a LOT of students need at least .5 review of the cross-country flight planning time - I've had times when the XC form was pretty off and it took an hour of ground to get things straightened out.
Minimum 2.5 would be my estimate on a gig like this and if you were booking with me I'd round that to 3 hours because of the percentage likelihood that it will actually go to three and charge you for less if I felt it was reasonable. It's steep, but that's what he thinks his time is worth and he's probably putting at least three hours of his time in.
 
Ryanb said:
So... does this CFI charge a 3hr minimum flat rate?

Sounds to me like he’s taking advantage of you. I wouldn’t go for that.
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If he charges by the hour, and figures (see above) it's going over 2, he's at 3 pretty easily.
 
Ask him, if you don't trust him you shouldn't be using him, if you don't like his answer then you have a decision to make.
 
I’d love to say you’re getting screwed, but I’m not.

What’s your syllabus say for the lesson duration?

Have you done any other night or cross country flights?

It was pretty easy to pull up multiple examples of a 3.0 duration lesson for the night XC. Here’s an example.

https://www.firstflight.com/private-pilot-course/night-flight/

As for the hourly rate, I did a survey a year or so ago. ~$60/hr was a good average. Your hourly rate average is a little high, but it could be location dependent.

Maybe post a link to the CFIs webpage so we can be better informed to your specific situation.
 
For a PP, you need 3 hours total of night time. This includes not just the XC flight itself, but also 10 takeoffs/landings to a full stop, and... well, however many additional hours at night it takes to add up to 3 besides just the XC.
So is it possible he wants to bang out all 3 hours in one evening? So, do the XC (1.5 hours total round trip), plus 1.5 more hours of dorking around at some airport somewhere, doing the landings, and building up all three hours in one go?

Maybe he has some kind of "I charge a minimum of XX if it'll keep me out unusually late after business hours" policy? Like an "overtime rate" that's different from his usual one?
Or maybe he's figuring there will be extra ground time prepping for this flight and lots of it?

In any case, we can't know, and the only way to find out is to just ask him. It's not impolite to ask. (If he's a professional.)
 
Most likely, you'll be doing more than just flying to and from your planned destination. At least a couple landings/times around the pattern, maybe at both airports, and when I did my night PP Xcountry flight w/ my CFI years ago he had me do an unplanned diversion to an alternate on our return flight, back in the all-paper days, to make sure I was able to find all the information I needed from the sectional and AF/D by flashlight while still flying the airplane. It was a great experience. I think very highly of my CFI.. I still fly with him more than ten years later.. but there's been a few times when I wasn't entirely convinced that every tenth of an hour I was billed for actually happened. ON THE OTHER HAND, there have been many, MANY informal off-the-book chats, questions he's answered, texts, phone calls, and help and advice he's given me over the years that have MORE than made up for the very occasional potentially slightly inflated hourly billing. Also, he is a very demanding, exacting teacher, and crams a LOT into every flight. There are no "that was great, just keep doing what you're doing and you'll be awesome!" flights... he is on me constantly to improve my skills, and is very good at not only being aware of problems and deviations but can identify the root causes, and is quite good at recommending corrective thought processes, exercises, and techniques. Admittedly, the $75/hour feels a bit high, especially when I'm one of the top musicians and teachers in my field in the area and I charge $60/hr for lessons, but I definitely get my money's worth every flight. His CFI hourly rate for those who rent one of his planes is a bit lower; he charges more in an owner's plane.
I consider him a friend, but this is his BUSINESS and I don't expect any favors. Every CFI/student relationship is different.. you've just to find a good match. I've flown with three other CFIs and a DPE. None were poor, and the others were less expensive. However, I would have to have flown a LOT longer with those other guys to learn what I've learned from my current CFI simply due to his efficiency.
 
dmspilot said:
...I'm interested to know where freelance instructors are charging $80/hr, maybe I should move.
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The cost of living varies widely depending on where you live. The additional income you would get by moving would likely get eaten up by increased living expenses.
 
Instruction time on night flights is never as short as the student thinks it will be.
 
Another vote for his hours probably not being too far off.

First off, you can log night flight starting at evening civil twilight vs 1hr after sunset. Second you need to get in all those landings, and night time pattern work. I am guessing you will full stop vs T&G so that takes time for every landing.

I remember my 100nm PPL night flight going something like this:

We met a bit before sunset (I had the plane ready)
Some ground school, advise, etc.​
He had me file a VFR flight plan and activate it
Flew to airport a bit over 50nm away (class Delta...still open).
Did 7 landings and take offs.
Some landings were with no headlights
Some landings we asked the tower to use brighter and darker lights (can't control when tower is open)
He was sly...the Delta closed while we were there so one pattern lap was Unicom
He then had me do two landings at another Delta (already shutdown) right in the city...very hard to find
Then back home.
I underestimated the time for my VFR flight plan and had a call from FSS

...busy night, learned way more than I expected. It was worth it. If he's gonna charge you for 3hrs learn everything you can.
 
Palmpilot said:
The cost of living varies widely depending on where you live. The additional income you would get by moving would likely get eaten up by increased living expenses.
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It was a joke.
 
Ryanb said:
1.2 doesn’t round up to 3 very easily.
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Not in your world, but I'd bet really good money on it going to 2.2-2.5 of instructor working time and if you bill and schedule by the hour, that's a 3 hour block you aren't booking any other customers. I always told students that I charge by the block for various reasons, but one of the biggest is so I don't have to stress a student out because I'm overbooked and HAVE to be back on the ground for the next guy in exactly 2 hours. If you need 2.5, it's fair to expect the instructor to set aside 3 hours of their time.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Not in your world, but I'd bet really good money on it going to 2.2-2.5 of instructor working time and if you bill and schedule by the hour, that's a 3 hour block you aren't booking any other customers. I always told students that I charge by the block for various reasons, but one of the biggest is so I don't have to stress a student out because I'm overbooked and HAVE to be back on the ground for the next guy in exactly 2 hours. If you need 2.5, it's fair to expect the instructor to set aside 3 hours of their time.
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I guess, but it’s never worked that way where I’ve been. I also wouldn’t be too happy paying 3.0 when I only flew 2.5, especially in parts of the country where Hobbs time doesn’t come cheaply. That doesn’t seem right.

Glad my FBO was always fair with their students.
 
When I did may night training I think we spent 30 min doing ground then 1 hour pattern doing 3 stop and go’s and then 3 or 4 touch and gos. Then next day did the x-country that was about 1 hour total. That was 70 hour for instructor plus plane fees. And we were never later than 930 being finished.
 
Ryanb said:
I guess, but it’s never worked that way where I’ve been. I also wouldn’t be too happy paying 3.0 when I only flew 2.5, especially in parts of the country where Hobbs time doesn’t come cheaply. That doesn’t seem right.

Glad my FBO was always fair with their students.
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Fair is a relative thing. Lots of deals you get charged by a flat rate, and lots of jobs charge by the hour, or the half hour. Pretty sure I get billed at something like $95/hr for maintenance by the hour on the plane whether it was 39 minutes or 58 minutes as well. Look around at what other professionals are getting paid, too and their risk exposure is a lot less. In my experience, lots of instructors actually get underpaid for the actual time they spend teaching / working, and people like one of the pilots I regularly fly with don't want to instruct because of the quality of life they've seen their instructors having.
I started billing by the hour when I got tired of being overbooked and having students run over their time and then cutting into other students' time. It's honestly not good cutting a lesson or a debriefing short because the student showed up 5 minutes late, didn't understand something on the preflight briefing, took an extra 10 minutes getting ready, and was really slow (it happens!) on the preflight on a 2 hour block, and then was upset because you cut the lesson short just when they were starting to figure out landings, lets say. Then you have to end the debriefing early because it's time for the next student.
If the instructor charges by the hour and you know it - work to get the value out of it - maximize your hour if the instructor charges by the hour. If you get done at 2.2, have a list of questions or subject matter that you can get some help on for the next 30 minutes. Practice 10-20 questions that might be on the oral exam, do SOMETHING, and let the instructor know you want to learn from that time. If not, and the instructor has already told you he charges by the hour, that's on you.
 
Clip4 said:
Because your CFI didn’t give you the instruction for night XC operations he should have.
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That’s quite the assumption to make without any supporting evidence. Fortunately, you’re wrong in saying that.
 
Ryanb said:
That’s quite the assumption to make without any supporting evidence. Fortunately, you’re wrong in saying that.
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If your CFI didn’t spend any additional time with you for night XC operations vs day XC operations, you did not receive adequate instruction.
 
Clip4 said:
If your CFI didn’t spend any additional time with you for night XC operations vs day XC operations, you did not receive adequate instruction.
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Again, that’s a bold assumption to make without knowing anything about the instructors who did my primary. I received adequate instruction. Thank you very much.
 
Ryanb said:
Again, that’s a bold assumption to make without knowing anything about the instructors who did my primary. I received adequate instruction. Thank you very much.
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"Knock the CFI you don't know anything about" is a long-time online aviation sporting event. Nothing to be concerned about. I originally joined the Red Board after a student told me someone called me an idiot. That was 1999.
 
midlifeflyer said:
"Knock the CFI you don't know anything about" is a long-time online aviation sporting event. Nothing to be concerned about. I originally joined the Red Board after a student told me someone called me an idiot. That was 1999.
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Oh I know. Clifford is notorious for that type of behavior anyhow.
 
Jeff Szlauko said:
Need to get my 100+ mile night cross country flight in, so I texted my CFI and asked him about his availability. He said his fee for this flight will be $240. He charges $80/hour, so he's looking at 3 hours.
I got to thinking about this, and went to SkyVector to get an idea of the flying time, which turns out is 27 minutes one way. So, even if one were to round that up to half and hour, then throw on another half hour for runup and possible longer flight, it's a total of 1.5 hours flying. Seems to me a reasonable amount of instructor time might be a half hour on top of this, as there will be some going over of the flight plan.
That said, seems 2 hours of instructor time would be sufficient.
Am I just way off here?
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You are not way off in talking to him about it. CFI pricing varies with the CFI and sometimes the operation. And what is "fair" is what the instructor and trainee agree to. Charging by block is not uncommon. For example, I used to do it regularly, with a "standard" lesson being a 2-hour block, because that was the amount of time I committed to the student for both the flight and ground. I did not schedule back-to-back, so the result was sometimes we spent a little less time; sometimes a little more time. Add in answering questions between lessons to round it out. Some appreciated the fixed fee for budgeting; others objected to it and I was willing to accommodate, using "handshake to handshake" time and even straight Hobbs.

You might be a bit off on your time calculations. You appear to be assuming a direct VFR route when you might, for example, have an emergency which requires a diversion.
 
Ryanb said:
Again, that’s a bold assumption to make without knowing anything about the instructors who did my primary. I received adequate instruction. Thank you very much.
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I just know what you stated (“How come? Mine wasn’t any different”) and what instruction I give for night XC. None of my students would describe it as you did. If night XC and day XC were not different, the FAA wouldn’t require the night XC.
 
Ryanb said:
Oh I know. Clifford is notorious for that type of behavior anyhow.
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Here is some of topics your CFI should have reviewed with you for your night XC:

Night orientation / situational awareness, navigation, chart reading techniques, selection of night check points, flight plan considerations including route, altitude and selecting appropriate alternate airports and fuel requirements
Precise aircraft control and navigational accuracy
Optical illusions at night, spatial disorientation, Recovery unusual attitudes and Instrument failures
Weather information and theory appropriate for night operations
Departure and arrival procedures, CFIT
Aeromedical factors including effects of hypoxia at night
Emergency operations
Use of unfamiliar airports
Lost procedures
Risk Management

How your CFI covered most of this and didn’t spend more time than your day XC lessons is a bit baffling.
 
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