Installing DME in Cherokee 140?

CC268

CC268

Final Approach
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CC268
I am doing my instrument ground school as we speak and I have realized that having DME would probably be very beneficial when I do my instrument training (I will start the flying after summer). I have dual VORs, one of which is an ILS. See panel layout below. I think the biggest issue is going to be finding a spot to put it. IMG_0160.JPG

I plan to call an avionics guy, but just out of curiosity, what do you guys think it would cost to buy an older used DME and have it installed?

Thanks.
 
Avionics are tricky that way. It's a terrible investment because it approaches installation cost of a GPS, which puts you in an entirely new utility category when it comes to using your airplane in IFR. For that reason, most people suggest you either undergo the cost of GPS installation, or simply do not install additional avionics at all in a baseline airplane like a cherokee 140.

I don't know what kind of restrictions do DPEs place on applicants flying a /U airplane on their checkride whilst having a tablet and/or a portable GPS, but that right there gives you all the SA you need to fly a checkride to /G enroute standards while only being tested on /U equipment. Springing for the /A capability on the aircraft just for training is not something I would personally pursue. I took my checkride in 2004 when I was too broke to even know what a panel mount GPS was, /U was fine.
 
Personally I'd be looking for a used 430w... I have DME in my plane and a 530w, and I chose to keep the dme as a backup of sorts, and it came in handy for a Canadian airport that my database didn't cover, but I'm not sure I'd install one new...


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I would agree with Hind. Years ago when I got my Navion, it had two KX-155's and an ADF for nav gear. Since I was based at IAD where even VFR the DME was helpful (there were also a few of the ILSs in there that were ILS-DMEs, I added an KN64 DME. It was a silly move. I rarely used it (I had a Garmin 195 hand held) and eventually put in the IFR GPS which gave me some real utility.
 
Sounds like it is best to just leave the panel alone. The plane is really owned by my dad and I pay him a monthly rate ($300 a month) to fly it. My dad would laugh in my face if I mentioned spending 10k for GPS. Especially since we have to do the ADSB upgrade at some point which will cost us close to 5k alone.

Don't get me wrong I'd love GPS and I am very familiar with the 430 from PPL training, but we're just poor paupers who own a Cherokee 140 :(
 
hindsight2020 said:
Avionics are tricky that way. It's a terrible investment because it approaches installation cost of a GPS,
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Hello? WTF? GPS and Avionics are different things? I know when I need work on a GNS430 it goes to an AVIONICS shop. Are they outsourcing that to a GPS shop?

For the OP... you have one indicator with GS (Glide Slope) not an Indicator with ILS.

You can get your IFR without adding anything to your 8-pack. Just get that white thing off your yoke and you'll be fine.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Avionics are tricky that way. It's a terrible investment because it approaches installation cost of a GPS, which puts you in an entirely new utility category when it comes to using your airplane in IFR. For that reason, most people suggest you either undergo the cost of GPS installation, or simply do not install additional avionics at all in a baseline airplane like a cherokee 140.

I don't know what kind of restrictions do DPEs place on applicants flying a /U airplane on their checkride whilst having a tablet and/or a portable GPS, but that right there gives you all the SA you need to fly a checkride to /G enroute standards while only being tested on /U equipment. Springing for the /A capability on the aircraft just for training is not something I would personally pursue. I took my checkride in 2004 when I was too broke to even know what a panel mount GPS was, /U was fine.
Click to expand...

InFO 17003, issued February 13 2017, changes the ballgame. Instead of requiring the use of installed electronic navigation systems it now provides for the use of onboard systems, thus opening the door to the use of tablets, etc.

Bob
 
CC268 said:
Sounds like it is best to just leave the panel alone. The plane is really owned by my dad and I pay him a monthly rate ($300 a month) to fly it. My dad would laugh in my face if I mentioned spending 10k for GPS. Especially since we have to do the ADSB upgrade at some point which will cost us close to 5k alone.

Don't get me wrong I'd love GPS and I am very familiar with the 430 from PPL training, but we're just poor paupers who own a Cherokee 140 :(
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Um you do know a WAAS position source is a necessary step to ADSB out, so you'd be killing one and a half birds with one stone...

And it doesn't have to be 10k

https://www.ebay.com/i/162527427782...3D711-117182-37290-0%26rvr_id%3D1222800497714


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gsengle said:
Um you do know a WAAS position source is a necessary step to ADSB out, so you'd be killing one and a half birds with one stone...

And it doesn't have to be 10k

https://www.ebay.com/i/162527427782?chn=ps&dispItem=1&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-117182-37290-0%2F2%3Fmpre%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fi%252F162527427782%253Fchn%253Dps%2526dispItem%253D1%26itemid%3D162527427782%26targetid%3D340521020527%26device%3Dm%26adtype%3Dpla%26googleloc%3D9004077%26poi%3D%26campaignid%3D764892186%26adgroupid%3D39783961149%26rlsatarget%3Dpla-340521020527%26abcId%3D978836%26merchantid%3D114699825%26gclid%3DCjwKEAjwvMnJBRCO2NSu-Puc6AUSJAAf-OSUTQmLZb7B4BHsZoF3uSqtXsAsfO6uSuNBBSWeMUSAUhoCv-nw_wcB%26srcrot%3D711-117182-37290-0%26rvr_id%3D1222800497714


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Can you explain this more? I know very little about all the details of avionics. It would still cost 10kish to get a 430 and anything else required for ADSB right?
 
Correct. Installation labor cost often rivals or exceeds the hardware cost. Which is why the dme installation today is a non starter, since you don't get labor costs that are proportional to discounted/old hardware.
 
Ravioli said:
Hello? WTF? GPS and Avionics are different things? I know when I need work on a GNS430 it goes to an AVIONICS shop. Are they outsourcing that to a GPS shop?

For the OP... you have one indicator with GS (Glide Slope) not an Indicator with ILS.

You can get your IFR without adding anything to your 8-pack. Just get that white thing off your yoke and you'll be fine.
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iPad will be used for charts, but I don't plan on using georeferenced. My instructor can make the call on what he thinks is appropriate. He is one of the best CFIIs in the state and maybe the country. Old Vietnam guy who specializes in instrument training (although he does all the ratings)
 
hindsight2020 said:
Correct. Installation labor cost often rivals or exceeds the hardware cost. Which is why the dme installation today is a non starter, since you don't get labor costs that are proportional to discounted/old hardware.
Click to expand...

That makes sense and my dad said the same thing...
 
Plenty of room if you get rid of the stupid handheld sitting in your panel. I saw a bunch of Mooneys with that sort of arrangement and crossed them right off the list. Were it me I'd install and old IFR GPS like a KLN 90 or KLN 94 (I'm about to put one of those in my own aircraft). Increases your ability to sell the aircraft if you want, and will make it actively useful for IFR. My guess is installation cost of a GPS is similar to a DME. You just get more out of it.
 
steingar said:
Plenty of room if you get rid of the stupid handheld sitting in your panel. I saw a bunch of Mooneys with that sort of arrangement and crossed them right off the list. Were it me I'd install and old IFR GPS like a KLN 90 or KLN 94 (I'm about to put one of those in my own aircraft). Increases your ability to sell the aircraft if you want, and will make it actively useful for IFR. My guess is installation cost of a GPS is similar to a DME. You just get more out of it.
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lol I love that thing...I only use it for the Nearest function. Well gotta tell dad to throw down his checkbook and buy a 430
 
CC268 said:
lol I love that thing...I only use it for the Nearest function. Well gotta tell dad to throw down his checkbook and buy a 430
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You IPad can do a better job, as can your noggin. There's this little thing called situational awareness. Personally I think a 430 is overkill for your little airplane, but that's just me.
 
steingar said:
You IPad can do a better job, as can your noggin. There's this little thing called situational awareness. Personally I think a 430 is overkill for your little airplane, but that's just me.
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I will check out the KLN that is probably a good idea actually
 
CC268 said:
I will check out the KLN that is probably a good idea actually
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The 89B and 90 are both dated, but will do what you need. The KLN94 is a color IFR GPS that will run you more. That's what I went for, as I'd flown behind them and liked them. I also thought that was a good point for my aircraft, you see 89B's in old Mooneys, but rarely color GPS. I didn't think the value of my aircraft could really support a 430, and old Mooney is only worth so much. I was also more thinking about what I was going to fly behind, rather than what I was going to train with.
 
WARNING!!! My post above contains incorrect information. The "installed" vs "onboard" change is for the plain vanilla private pilot checkride. The IRA ACS still refers to installed equipment.


Bob
 
My point is ADSB requires a WAAS position source which can come from an existing installed WAAS gps. These tend to be the cheapest ways (assuming you have the gps already) to get ADSB accomplished. Otherwise you have to buy a unit with built in gps, these tend to be more expensive, and you don't end up with the gps. If you fly IFR, a 430w is a miraculous thing. If you're VFR only don't bother.

What's your ADSB plan? What's the home base airport?


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Ravioli said:
If it's daddy's dollars go ahead and ask for the GTN750. It's only $18k + installation.
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We split the cost...point being is it is OUR airplane and my dad won't spring for a 430.

Anyways I got my answer and it sounds like leaving the panel as is is fine.

Not sure if you were trying to be condescending or just a friendly joke with this one
 
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gsengle said:
My point is ADSB requires a WAAS position source which can come from an existing installed WAAS gps. These tend to be the cheapest ways (assuming you have the gps already) to get ADSB accomplished. Otherwise you have to buy a unit with built in gps, these tend to be more expensive, and you don't end up with the gps. If you fly IFR, a 430w is a miraculous thing. If you're VFR only don't bother.

What's your ADSB plan? What's the home base airport?


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Click to expand...

So I will be doing my instrument training in the plane (at least that is the plan for now), but I realize that it is realistically probably not a good long term IFR platform. I think both my dad and I realize that. We both know if we planned to fly IFR frequently (which in AZ we won't) then we would want an airplane with a GPS and possibly an autopilot. At this point I am simply building time to get my ratings as quick as I can as I am seriously considering switching careers from engineering.

The airplane is at Deer Valley.

We spoke with an avionics guy and talked about either the garmin gtx 345 or the stratus setup I believe. Sounds like it will run about 5K

My dad is trying to hold off on ADSB as he hopes prices may come down as we get closer to the 2020 date but I have my doubts.
 
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I love how so many are waiting till the last minute in hopes of cost savings. Sime of those who wait till the last minute and absolutely have to have ADS-B will pay overtime to get it.

If you don't have to have it, then it's no big deal
 
bnt83 said:
I love how so many are waiting till the last minute in hopes of cost savings. Sime of those who wait till the last minute and absolutely have to have ADS-B will pay overtime to get it.

If you don't have to have it, then it's no big deal
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I don't agree with my dad and I don't think waiting till last minute is a good option either. With that being said who knows if we will still have this airplane by then?

I do need to mention to him those exact thoughts though...we may end up in a long waiting line.

I don't blame him though. 5K is a lot!
 
To answer your question, it cost me $300 for a used Narco 890 DME (because it would be next to impossible to buy a new one) off of EBay and $500 to install it. I got the tray from a very generous member here (Simtech...hope I spelled that correctly) I'm not knocking the good advice from others posted here but like your dad, I can't see spending half of what I paid for the plane on a GPS install. I'll save that for my next plane.
 
Walboy said:
What is your cost per hour to operate your airplane? Let's assume you can find a used DME and have it installed for $2000. Assuming it takes your 40 hours of flying, that's an extra 2000/40 = $50/hr just to have DME in addition to regular operating costs. It probably makes more sense to just rent an airplane with a GPS in it and learn it all.

Get an IPC after you get your instrument rating in your Cherokee 140 if you think you need that to confidently fly it under IFR.

Also, don't forget the cost of an IFR cert which is around $300 that the DPE is going to want to see for the checkride.
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Because I pay a flat rate fee + whatever fuel costs it is cheaper the more I fly it. Around $55-$65 an hour. That is just for myself to fly it though, not total operating cost between both me and my dad. Like I said I am quite familiar with the 430. But realistically it is probably best to just get my IFR rating in the airplane and then I can learn GPS approaches after.
 
Timbeck2 said:
To answer your question, it cost me $300 for a used Narco 890 DME (because it would be next to impossible to buy a new one) off of EBay and $500 to install it. I got the tray from a very generous member here (Simtech...hope I spelled that correctly) I'm not knocking the good advice from others posted here but like your dad, I can't see spending half of what I paid for the plane on a GPS install. I'll save that for my next plane.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input!
 
Ravioli said:
Hello? WTF? GPS and Avionics are different things? I know when I need work on a GNS430 it goes to an AVIONICS shop. Are they outsourcing that to a GPS shop?
Click to expand...
The "IT" in the post you are deingrating refers to the DME not to "avionics" in general.
 
Timbeck2 said:
To answer your question, it cost me $300 for a used Narco 890 DME (because it would be next to impossible to buy a new one) off of EBay and $500 to install it. I got the tray from a very generous member here (Simtech...hope I spelled that correctly) I'm not knocking the good advice from others posted here but like your dad, I can't see spending half of what I paid for the plane on a GPS install. I'll save that for my next plane.
Click to expand...

I am contemplating going this route. How did you pick one? I see lots of broken Narco 890s on eBay.
 
I ordered from a 100% thumbs up rating with a money back guarantee. The seller shipped me two because he didn't know which one worked. One worked and on the other, only the display worked and I was able to help out another POA member with that one. I looked for over a month. However, there is still a shop in Kansas that will repair them. https://www.bevanrabell.com
 
CC268 said:
I don't agree with my dad and I don't think waiting till last minute is a good option either. With that being said who knows if we will still have this airplane by then?
Click to expand...

Looking out on the horizon Levil has a new product for ADS-B out that looks interesting.
 
Ok, totally off track... So CC268, I'm really liking your panel, and would like to know how it was done, Just an overlay??.. completely new face on the panel??.. Owner produced part??.. do you have a CAD drawing??.. I have a 1967 140 with the shotgun approach, and would like to install 2, G5's to replace Ai and DG, move the rest around to be a "normal" layout... just looking for ideas right now... and the Throttle and mixture controls... so what to make that change also. So what paperwork was needed to change the panel??.. and the controls... Thanks...
 
Glenn D said:
Ok, totally off track... So CC268, I'm really liking your panel, and would like to know how it was done, Just an overlay??.. completely new face on the panel??.. Owner produced part??.. do you have a CAD drawing??.. I have a 1967 140 with the shotgun approach, and would like to install 2, G5's to replace Ai and DG, move the rest around to be a "normal" layout... just looking for ideas right now... and the Throttle and mixture controls... so what to make that change also. So what paperwork was needed to change the panel??.. and the controls... Thanks...
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You know I couldn't really tell you at this point as it was that way when we bought it (one reason why we bought this plane). In 2010 this plane was essentially rebuilt. I literally have a bankers box full of paper work, photos, etc that detail the rebuild. I am a busy guy right now so not sure if I will have time, but if I have time to go through that box I can see what I can find. Maybe this weekend.

I can tell you it isn't an overlay, it is a brand new panel face. As far as who did it, CAD, paperwork needed...I am not completely sure. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Like I said, I will see if I can find more of these answers maybe this weekend.

Off topic, but the previous owner bought this plane and put over 1000 hours on it in 2 years! Insane. He is an American Airlines mechanic and wanted to get his ATP. He is based in Chicago, but kept the plane here in Arizona. He would fly down from Chicago for a week or so at a time and would go up for like 10 hours a day. He got his time and got his ATP...pretty impressive.
 
I have spent a decade in your shoes. I love the 140, but dropping $15K into a 140 is a tough trigger to pull. I'm still sitting on the fence. $15K could move me into a decent 180 or Arrow, but then I would need new avionics in that airplane.
 
flyingfrog said:
I have spent a decade in your shoes. I love the 140, but dropping $15K into a 140 is a tough trigger to pull. I'm still sitting on the fence. $15K could move me into a decent 180 or Arrow, but then I would need new avionics in that airplane.
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Yea agreed
 
Leave the panel alone till after you get your instrument cert. Installing a GPS now will increase the complexity of instrument training several times over. You will have to learn how to operate the new equipment at a very high level for the checkride. The examiner can ask you just about anything concerning any piece of installed navigation equipment. While training, simpler is better.

ADS-B out compliance is NOT mandatory for everyone! It depends on the airspace you to intend to operate. If you decide you need it, you WILL need an approved GPS source, but the source DOES NOT have to be a GPS navigation system.

There are ADS-B out solutions that have a GPS built in to provide the position source, and these devices are cheaper to buy and install, but they don't add any navigation capability to you aircraft. A GPS navigator will but the interface between the boxes increases the complexity of the installation and may affect choices on any future upgrades.

The downside to ADS-B compliance besides the cost is the fact that it becomes a no-go item if it breaks. Per the regs, if ADS-B is installed, it must be on at ALL times, even on the ground and in airspace where it is not required.

The drone industry is generating huge advances in ADS-B technology, it's likely that the cost to comply will decrease as we get closer to the deadline.
 
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