Installed GAMIjectors...

Clark1961

Clark1961

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Why did I wait so long? Why isn't the concept embraced by the engine manufacturers for non-flow-balanced engines?

Start-up and idle was smoother. Cruise was smoother. Many more power settings available now. I can cruise at 8 gph now if I want to - that's 100 degrees LOP. Maybe TBO is possible with this TSIO-360. WOW.
 
Balanced flow is the way to go. Makes LOP ops easy.

Keep a record of your temps now for future reference. It makes diagnosing easier. ;)
 
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I've got them on my IO360 in the 172, absolutely love them.

I'm building up my IO360 for my RV9A right now, it has Bendix (non-matched) injectors on it that will see first flight - but as soon as I've got a couple dozen hours on it into Phase I, I intend to change them out for GAMIjectors and flow-match them.
 
Do the injectors come pretty well matched when you get them or is there some adjusting that needs to be done after installation?
 
GANIs work very well on many engines. Continentals especially. Lycomings, it depends.

I can't figure out why the manifacturers haven't embraced this, either. Money well spent for most.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
GANIs work very well on many engines. Continentals especially. Lycomings, it depends.

I can't figure out why the manifacturers haven't embraced this, either. Money well spent for most.
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Ted-

Can you confirm that for most Lycoming models the injector is a single part number and thus a single amount of flow?

My #2 cylinder runs about 50 degrees TIT hotter than the others and thus determines leaning. I am wondering if I could get an injector from GAMI with a slightly higher flow in the number 2 position to allow about .2 or so GPH savings? If it works that way I could pay for it in the first year.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Ted-

Can you confirm that for most Lycoming models the injector is a single part number and thus a single amount of flow?

My #2 cylinder runs about 50 degrees TIT hotter than the others and thus determines leaning. I am wondering if I could get an injector from GAMI with a slightly higher flow in the number 2 position to allow about .2 or so GPH savings? If it works that way I could pay for it in the first year.
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To my knowledge that's how Lycoming factory injectors all work, but don't quote me on that as I could be wrong.

GAMIjectors you buy as a set. Their price is reasonable enough that they'll pay for themselves pretty quickly provided you run LOP in a manner that you weren't able to before.

My experience with Lycomings has been that their benefit from GAMIjectors varies heavily depending on engine model. The 4-cylinders seem to love them. The 6-cylinders I've found typically work LOP just fine with stock injectors, but I've also never run an AJ1A. :)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
To my knowledge that's how Lycoming factory injectors all work, but don't quote me on that as I could be wrong.

GAMIjectors you buy as a set. Their price is reasonable enough that they'll pay for themselves pretty quickly provided you run LOP in a manner that you weren't able to before.

My experience with Lycomings has been that their benefit from GAMIjectors varies heavily depending on engine model. The 4-cylinders seem to love them. The 6-cylinders I've found typically work LOP just fine with stock injectors, but I've also never run an AJ1A. :)
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My bird will run fine LOP now. It's just that I could save more gas if they were better balanced, I do know that GAMI makes injectors for my bird I just haven't taken the leap.

Thanks as always.
 
Clark1961 said:
Why did I wait so long? Why isn't the concept embraced by the engine manufacturers for non-flow-balanced engines?

Start-up and idle was smoother. Cruise was smoother. Many more power settings available now. I can cruise at 8 gph now if I want to - that's 100 degrees LOP. Maybe TBO is possible with this TSIO-360. WOW.
Click to expand...

Yep, only thing you have to be cautious about is the turbo bootstrapping itself up and getting you into detonation risk as you don't have a fully regulating waste gate IIRC.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
GANIs work very well on many engines. Continentals especially. Lycomings, it depends.

I can't figure out why the manifacturers haven't embraced this, either. Money well spent for most.
Click to expand...

Manufacturers make money selling replacement parts like cylinder kits.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
To my knowledge that's how Lycoming factory injectors all work, but don't quote me on that as I could be wrong.

GAMIjectors you buy as a set. Their price is reasonable enough that they'll pay for themselves pretty quickly provided you run LOP in a manner that you weren't able to before.

My experience with Lycomings has been that their benefit from GAMIjectors varies heavily depending on engine model. The 4-cylinders seem to love them. The 6-cylinders I've found typically work LOP just fine with stock injectors, but I've also never run an AJ1A. :)
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My IO-470s with stock 120 injectors is smooth LOP all the way till they fade out and die.
 
Alexb2000 said:
My bird will run fine LOP now. It's just that I could save more gas if they were better balanced, I do know that GAMI makes injectors for my bird I just haven't taken the leap.

Thanks as always.
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If you're able to run fine LOP now, my guess is that the incremental improvement of GAMIs won't help much. Remember that GAMIs aren't perfectly balanced either, and if you're looking at wanting a .2 GPH difference, you're probably not going to do any better with GAMIs. There's probably a .2 GPH (or more) difference in the peaks with GAMIs on the 520s in the 310.

As always, you're welcome. :)
 
Henning said:
Manufacturers make money selling replacement parts like cylinder kits.
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Oh yes, I'm sure that's why. How could I have ever thought otherwise? Especially since many factory engines run LOP just fine. :rolleyes:

How about a more probable option like having special injectors for each cylinder make it easy to screw up install (happens all the time with GAMIs) and the manufacturers try to do more error-proofing not make areas that their workers could easily screw up?
 
Henning said:
My IO-470s with stock 120 injectors is smooth LOP all the way till they fade out and die.
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And my 520s wouldn't do that at all, so the GAMIs were a good investment. The Aztec's engines, however, ran LOP great - no need for GAMIs.
 
I got the Continental platinum series which had balanced injectors which work pretty darn good (the EGT's peak within about a 1/8 turn of the mixture control). One time my mechanic inadvertantly scrambled them putting them back in and BOY did that make a difference. Took me a few times trying to figure out why she didn't lean right until I thought to ask if they had messed with them during annual.
 
It's pretty typical for mechanics to screw up the order. The standard responses I've heard are "No way did we get that wrong - they're all in the right cylinders" and "Why do you want to run LOP anyway?" :)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It's pretty typical for mechanics to screw up the order. The standard responses I've heard are "No way did we get that wrong - they're all in the right cylinders" and "Why do you want to run LOP anyway?" :)
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Me: Did you mess with the injectors during annual?
IA: I did take them out to clean them
Me: Did you put them back in the right cylinders?
IA: You don't have GAMIs.
Me: They were balanced at the factory.
IA: OK, I'll fix it.

Next time I flew all was right again.
 
flyingron said:
Me: Did you mess with the injectors during annual?
IA: I did take them out to clean them
Me: Did you put them back in the right cylinders?
IA: You don't have GAMIs.
Me: They were balanced at the factory.
IA: OK, I'll fix it.

Next time I flew all was right again.
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A much better response.
 
Clark1961 said:
Why did I wait so long? Why isn't the concept embraced by the engine manufacturers for non-flow-balanced engines?

Start-up and idle was smoother. Cruise was smoother. Many more power settings available now. I can cruise at 8 gph now if I want to - that's 100 degrees LOP. Maybe TBO is possible with this TSIO-360. WOW.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't be cheaper to adopt the guys in the shop?:goofy:
 
I'm seriously considering GAMIs since my IO360-A1B6 fails the lean test miserably -- OTOO 1.0 gph diff, maybe more as it's hard to find the exact peak for the richer injectors since the engine is running rough by that time. I would very much like to be able to run LOP. I don't dare try now, except at above 8 kft or so.
 
I love the way I can cruise at WOT, 2400 RPM, 12.1 GPH and 161 knots. Just feels like cheating.
 
After reading this thread I've decided to do it in the Mooney.
 
I always thought that GAMIs were ordered and installed after testing on each specific engine - customized, not by model number. I can see that I was wrong on that.:confused:
 
Jaybird180 said:
I always thought that GAMIs were ordered and installed after testing on each specific engine - customized, not by model number. I can see that I was wrong on that.:confused:
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It is a good idea to benchmark your stock injectors first. If the fuel distribution is good to begin with, then you don't need to buy the Gamijectors.

Then when you get the Gamijectors, do it again. If your results still need improvement, Gami will use your data from the test and provide you with exchange injectors as part of their service. The tests should be accomplished at two altitudes, say 8,000 MSL and 3000 MSL. The pattern should be the same for both altitudes, if they aren't, then there is a good chance you have an induction leak.
 
So what is the GAMI spread where you need or don't need GAMIjectors?
 
I remember those days, partly with wanton and partly glad that's over.

I thought you would have jumped on the GAMI spread question with both feet Ted.

I have stock injectors on my IO-360 and between weather, work and this darn cold haven't been able to get it out and really test the LOP abilities. What would be considered an acceptable spread and at what point should I think GAMI's?

I have read everything I can find from the Gray people and they don't sound like they like LOP much. What say Ye?
 
tmyers said:
I thought you would have jumped on the GAMI spread question with both feet Ted.
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There's really not too much to it, and what there was to say I covered. :)

I have stock injectors on my IO-360 and between weather, work and this darn cold haven't been able to get it out and really test the LOP abilities. What would be considered an acceptable spread and at what point should I think GAMI's?
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Can you run LOP smoothly and have CHTs that are happy numbers (see my running thread for my definitions of happy numbers)? If so, then you don't need GAMIs. If the engine gets rough before you can run lean enough, then you need GAMIs. Although I flew an M20F with about your same engine it, I never attempted to run LOP with it, so I don't know how yours runs. It just depends engine to engine.

I have read everything I can find from the Gray people and they don't sound like they like LOP much. What say Ye?
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Correct - their official publication is to tell pilots not to run LOP.

See my engine running thread for my opinion on running LOP. I ran LOP in the Aztec for 1,000 hours (so 2,000 hours of engine run time), and got excellent life out of it. I run LOP in the 310 as well - have gotten excellent service from it. The only plane I didn't run LOP in is the Navajo, because the owners of the Navajos I flew didn't want me to.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
There's really not too much to it, and what there was to say I covered. :)



Can you run LOP smoothly and have CHTs that are happy numbers (see my running thread for my definitions of happy numbers)? If so, then you don't need GAMIs. If the engine gets rough before you can run lean enough, then you need GAMIs. Although I flew an M20F with about your same engine it, I never attempted to run LOP with it, so I don't know how yours runs. It just depends engine to engine.



Correct - their official publication is to tell pilots not to run LOP.

See my engine running thread for my opinion on running LOP. I ran LOP in the Aztec for 1,000 hours (so 2,000 hours of engine run time), and got excellent life out of it. I run LOP in the 310 as well - have gotten excellent service from it. The only plane I didn't run LOP in is the Navajo, because the owners of the Navajos I flew didn't want me to.
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I ran one engine to about 1800 hrs LOP (first few hundred hours were ROP) and another 2200 hrs (all LOP). These were 260 HP IO470s with a (seriously over conservative) TBO of 1500 hrs. Both were healthy and running fine when removed.
 
Having reman'd both enignes in the last 3 years, I can tell you Conti has adopted this technology. Both engines WILL run smoothly LOP provided I disarm the aneroids (I'm not saying I have or have not done so, suffice it to say at each annual they are found to be operational).
 
gismo said:
I ran one engine to about 1800 hrs LOP (first few hundred hours were ROP) and another 2200 hrs (all LOP). These were 260 HP IO470s with a (seriously over conservative) TBO of 1500 hrs. Both were healthy and running fine when removed.
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And the 520s in the 310 went their first 1700 hours ROP followed by 450 hours LOP, and were doing well.

I think there's no shortage of data that shows that, whether your engine is painted gold or grey, LOP doesn't cause any problems. The grey folks haven't adopted it even though many of their engines do it just fine, the gold folks have (at least to some extent).

Maybe at Gaston's we can talk about shades of grey over a beer. :)
 
Continental is a bit more forthright than Lycoming on this. They've said once you're at a setting of max recommended cruise of below you can do what ever the hell you want with the mixture from full rich to so lean the engine is misfiring. You can't hurt the engine.

I actually had written out the GAMI order when it was suggested I check to see how my Platinum series engine performed and frankly, it was set up so well I doubt the GAMIs would have improved it.
 
flyingron said:
Continental is a bit more forthright than Lycoming on this. They've said once you're at a setting of max recommended cruise of below you can do what ever the hell you want with the mixture from full rich to so lean the engine is misfiring. You can't hurt the engine.

I actually had written out the GAMI order when it was suggested I check to see how my Platinum series engine performed and frankly, it was set up so well I doubt the GAMIs would have improved it.
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The great thing is, the GAMI guys will tell you straight-up if, based upon your test data, you don't need their injectors. They and their research are great services to GA.
 
azure said:
I'm seriously considering GAMIs since my IO360-A1B6 fails the lean test miserably -- OTOO 1.0 gph diff, maybe more as it's hard to find the exact peak for the richer injectors since the engine is running rough by that time. I would very much like to be able to run LOP. I don't dare try now, except at above 8 kft or so.
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I'd make darn sure you don't have an induction leak or ignition problem first before buying the GAMIjectors. It seems just about every Lycoming IO-360 (and especially the -A1B6/A3B6(D) variants) run great LOP on stock injectors, provided everything else is up to par. I fear you might spend the money on the GAMIjectors and then find the same results as you have now, so I'd do some troubleshooting first.
 
John Collins said:
The tests should be accomplished at two altitudes, say 8,000 MSL and 3000 MSL. The pattern should be the same for both altitudes, if they aren't, then there is a good chance you have an induction leak.
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Oh that's a pretty slick way of figuring out if there is an induction leak.
 
John Collins said:
The tests should be accomplished at two altitudes, say 8,000 MSL and 3000 MSL. The pattern should be the same for both altitudes, if they aren't, then there is a good chance you have an induction leak.
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But, but, but, 30 inches is 30 inches (well, almost, neglecting the change in Patm for del-P across the engine).
 
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