Insight Wanted: Survey on Catastrophic Oil Leak Detection

M

mur_2003

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Oct 31, 2024
Messages
15
Display Name
Display name:
Mur_Trinel
Klaus M said:
I took the survey...
Not sure oil leak detection is much of a safety concern with reasonable preventative practices.
Click to expand...
Yes, we’ve discussed this as a group, but some members still believe it is an issue, so we’re continuing to look into it for now. Also, thank you for taking the survey!
 
Define catastrophic.

To me catastrophic implies a leak bad enough that the engine will be starved of oil in minutes or less.
 
If it's not leaking, it's out of oil. Or so I've been told; speaking as a guy who has a significant oil leak currently...
Sure would be nice to have an engine designed in the last century or so.
 
I mean the oil pressure gauge is a pretty good indicator already since a catastrophic leak is going to leave you with no oil.
 
I'm thinking if it sprays all over the windscreen and then the engine stops it's what I'd call catastrophic.
 
mur_2003 said:
Hey everyone!

Hope you’re all doing well! We are a group of college students gathering responses for a survey about catastrophic oil leaks in general aviation aircraft and would really appreciate your input. If you have a few minutes, it would mean a lot!

Thanks so much for your help!

Link to Google form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...T72-siEdBFODgkHVO41h6CkQ/viewform?usp=sf_link
Click to expand...
I think you're going to have a problem with sample size, on this one.

I've got a 25-year database of homebuilt aircraft accidents. Out of about 4,900 EAB accidents in this time period, less than 70 involved the aircraft oil system. And not all of those were leaks; some were failures of oil pumps, others were the pilot's failure to secure the oil cap, etc.

There are a lot more production-type aircraft, of course (EAB accounts for about 10% of the US aircraft fleet) but production-type aircraft have a lower rate of mechanical failure. Not all result in an NTSB accident report, either. Also, be aware that there are some failures (such as connecting rods and pistons) which will result in a massive amount of oil being spewed overboard, but that's not the oil system's fault.

Anyway, I've attached a PDF file with the narrative information for oil-related homebuilt accidents from 2008 through 2022.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Attachments

  • Oil-Related EAB Accidents 2008-2022.pdf
    714 KB · Views: 3
wanttaja said:
I've got a 25-year database of homebuilt aircraft accidents. Out of about 4,900 EAB accidents in this time period, less than 70 involved the aircraft oil system. And not all of those were leaks; some were failures of oil pumps, others were the pilot's failure to secure the oil cap, etc.
Click to expand...
I did check my 1998-2021 Cessna 172 accident database. Out of ~3200 accidents, just 25 involved the oil system.

Like I said, small sample size.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
I think you're going to have a problem with sample size, on this one.

I've got a 25-year database of homebuilt aircraft accidents. Out of about 4,900 EAB accidents in this time period, less than 70 involved the aircraft oil system. And not all of those were leaks; some were failures of oil pumps, others were the pilot's failure to secure the oil cap, etc.

There are a lot more production-type aircraft, of course (EAB accounts for about 10% of the US aircraft fleet) but production-type aircraft have a lower rate of mechanical failure. Not all result in an NTSB accident report, either. Also, be aware that there are some failures (such as connecting rods and pistons) which will result in a massive amount of oil being spewed overboard, but that's not the oil system's fault.

Anyway, I've attached a PDF file with the narrative information for oil-related homebuilt accidents from 2008 through 2022.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...
Thank you for your message! As I mentioned earlier, we’ve had a group discussion about this, but some members still feel it’s an issue worth exploring further. We appreciate your input and the attachment—I'll share it with the group!
 
RyanShort1 said:
I've had at least two forced landings affected by oil loss in the last three years.

I took the survey and left you some comments.
Click to expand...
That is quite terrifying! Would you mind elaborating, if you haven’t done so previously? I am always on the lookout for lessons learned; that is the main reason I look at this forum.
 
Iflydogs said:
That is quite terrifying! Would you mind elaborating, if you haven’t done so previously? I am always on the lookout for lessons learned; that is the main reason I look at this forum.
Click to expand...
www.pilotsofamerica.com

Not my favorite way to finish a photo mission...

Our Thursday was "interesting." The good news is, she's back on her feet, not too badly damaged from the initial look at her. Also... I'm still looking for a 182. https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/wanted-cessna-182-for-lease-in-dallas-texas.148697
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com

This was one of them. We think that the oil leak that forced our hand was a gasket on the oil filter, of all things.

Lessons learned? My number one takeaway from both incidents is that sometimes a mechanical situation can put you in a situation where straight-up skill and recent practice is just as important as ADM.
 
Racerx said:
My apologies on some of my snarky comments as I’m trying to visualize what such a device would be. Or the actual usefulness over the current instruments already in the plane.
Click to expand...
I could see an oil level sensor that reports to an engine monitor. That would actually be pretty cool.
 
Racerx said:
My apologies on some of my snarky comments as I’m trying to visualize what such a device would be. Or the actual usefulness over the current instruments already in the plane.
Click to expand...
No worries at all! I’m not an aviation expert myself, but this idea was suggested by someone in the group with experience in aviation, so I’m still learning. We’re currently evaluating whether to shift our focus, but any changes will require the approval of the entire group. Some members remain uncertain about the necessity of this idea and are waiting for the survey results to guide their decision. I truly appreciate your honesty in your responses and the time you took to complete the survey! Thank you!
 
I completed the survey and left a comment.

Total loss of oil is usually not a stand-alone event. It occurs as a result of some other failure. Having a warning light telling me my oil is gone won't be very helpful when there's a large hole in my crankcase and the engine has come to a stop. Furthermore, I can probably figure out that the oil has departed the engine by noticing that much of it is smeared all over my windshield.
 
Rather than an oil level sensor, a chip detector may provide warning prior to complete failure.
 
Low oil pressure and/or high oil temperature are possible indicators of low oil for which there are already those required indicators on aviation piston engines.

I looked at the survey and my responses were going to be inconsistent and misinterpreted because of the survey design. I think you should solicit input from a professional researcher, and maybe one who works in aviation, since you are at a college.
 
Half Fast said:
Can we assume those members are not pilots?
Click to expand...
Yes, that is correct—none of our members are pilots. Our group consists of five individuals: two aerospace majors, two computer science majors, and one computer engineering major. The idea was suggested by one of the aerospace majors, whose father is a pilot and supported the concept. I’m one of the computer science majors, and my role was to design and distribute the survey during the current market research phase.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Low oil pressure and/or high oil temperature are possible indicators of low oil for which there are already those required indicators on aviation piston engines.

I looked at the survey and my responses were going to be inconsistent and misinterpreted because of the survey design. I think you should solicit input from a professional researcher, and maybe one who works in aviation, since you are at a college.
Click to expand...
I've conducted interviews with two individuals: one is an A&P mechanic/IA with 29 years of experience and an aircraft analyst for 13 years, while the other has worked on engines and aircraft for 23 years. The survey was a required part of our first-year seminar called 'Introduction to Technology and Innovation.' I apologize if the survey was unclear or poorly worded; I don’t have much experience in aviation.
 
I took the survey and wish you luck. I don’t know how it works on a larger plane, but on mine, when I toggle the heating knob I get a strong whiff of whatever is going on in the engine compartment two feet in front of me. The heater is just a half cowling that wraps around the exhaust pipes. So if anything untoward were going on there, like an oil leak, my nose will tell me. Maybe in a larger plane or a twin where you don’t have such an intimate relationship with your engine, a leak detector might be useful, but for a light single, not so much.
 
mur_2003 said:
I've conducted interviews with two individuals: one is an A&P mechanic/IA with 29 years of experience and an aircraft analyst for 13 years, while the other has worked on engines and aircraft for 23 years. The survey was a required part of our first-year seminar called 'Introduction to Technology and Innovation.' I apologize if the survey was unclear or poorly worded; I don’t have much experience in aviation.
Click to expand...

No worries friend. I’m no aviation expert either, but have engine experience. My comment was really about survey design. What you’re doing is probably just fine for the class. There are probably experts in your school who have designed research surveys so that the data they get back is “clean” and interpretable. As well, your college probably has an Institutional Review Board that reviews and approves stuff like this which is considered human research, but that’s a ton of red tape.

Nevertheless, please if you have the time, patience, and interest, let us know how the work was received (score/grade), any discussions, and the final results.

All the best.
 
I'm told that the college age students today are all computer whizzes. They use Artificial Intelligence (AI) for everything (I watch TV ya know). The aviation industry can use your expertise in simplifying our most complicated challenges.

The biggest challenges in the Aviation industry is getting past the FAA's road blocks. Certificating anything and everything has become radically expensive and complicated. Three decades and counting just to replace 100LL. Millions of dollars have been spent for approving life saving GPS Moving Map Displays. 50 years after the automotive industry implementation several companies have produced electronic engine control systems (FADEC) for our legacy engines and still very few have made it to the certified world. Don't be so focused and worried about 'Catastrophic oil lose' when the big package is more important.

Create AI software/programs/app (whatever they call it today) that read all the regulations and past certification presidents and make it cheaper to get approvals for the many developments that are already in the homebuilt world but can't make into the certified fleet. There's many homebuilt aircraft that have Lycoming and Continental engines using complete electronic computer control fuel and ignition system (EFI) that should be eligible for every aircraft but it's too complicated to certify according to the FAA.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top