Initial radio contact

fozzie bear

fozzie bear

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
13
Location
Texas
Display Name
Display name:
Jeff
Hi all, new here. I probably won't post much unless I think I can really contribute, but I love learning. Since I have started this adventure, I have been reading everything I can find about flying. I've been training for exactly a year and totaled about 42 hours so far. I have about 1-2 more practice flights before scheduling a check ride. I fly from a non-towered airport and have only taken 2 flights where I needed to talk to a controller in tower. I'm not afraid or nervous to talk on the radio and generally know what to say and when. My biggest fear on the radio is hearing the controller; and I have good hearing.

I will be taking a short cross country next week (approx 60 nm each way) just for fun and want to practice using flight following. I'm not really concerned with how to ask for it, my question is about initial contact. I know my instructors opinion, but want to get others. In all of my research related to radio comms, I've observed some pilots that begin by contacting and immediately stating their request. I have observed about an equal number of others who establish 2-way contact first and then state request. Is there a preferred method for controllers? The first choice seems it would save airtime, but is it necessary to get their attention first?
 
I'll usually make initial contact with everything I need. For example, NY Approach, Cessna N12345, 5 miles north of KFRG, level 3,000 request flight following to KXXX
 
Tune the frequency and listen. If it's quiet, blast away. If it's hard to get a word in edgewise, break in when you can with "Podunk Center Bugsmasher 123XY" (you can add "with request," but it will be assumed if you don't).
 
It's a judgement call... what are you comfortable with, what do you think the controllers are comfortable with.

My base call is, "Greensboro approach, Experimental 123TG, 30 miles east request flight following to Asheville"
- I didn't include altitude because 50:50 they will ask for it again
- Sometimes you have to get their attention first, this will plus some
- If I give them altitude and destination, it's often too much

If it's NY Approach rocking and rolling during rush hour, I'll give it all but work on minimum length and maximum usefulness...
"NY Approach, Experimental 123TG, Robbinsville, flight following, Poughkeepsie"
"123TG, squawk 4321, ident"
"(ident), no other response"

If it's east Podunk with no radio traffic or Center who may or may not be covering me in this sector or on this freq, "Good Morning Podunk Approach, Experimental 123TG"

Always a judgement call for me, always subject to new info and lessons.
 
MAKG1 said:
Tune the frequency and listen. If it's quiet, blast away. If it's hard to get a word in edgewise, break in when you can with "Podunk Center Bugsmasher 123XY" (you can add "with request," but it will be assumed if you don't).
Click to expand...

I would generally agree, but isn't that a little backwards at the same time? If it's slow, there's no harm in a leisurely back-and-forth. Besides, you might be waking the controller up and hear "Bugsmasher 12.. ah.. aircraft calling, say again?" and then have to repeat it all.

On a busy frequency, arguably, getting it all out in one shot takes less air time.
 
On a busy day, I'd suggest saying "Centerville approach, Cessna 12345, VFR advisories."

That's quick and easy to squeeze in and he knows what you want when he comes back to you. When he replies, give him your rough location, altitude, destination, and request for flight following. He'll likely respond with a squawk. Be ready to write it down. (Write it first, read it back, then put it into the xponder.)

After he picks you up on radar he'll give you a "radar contact" acknowledgment and you are then, in the system with flight following.

When you are handed off to a new controller, all you say is your call sign and altitude. If you know for a fact that it will be the last controller and you have already listened to the weather at your destination, reply with "Mayberry approach, Cessna 12345, 5 thousand 5 hundred with Delta."
 
F01LA said:
I would generally agree, but isn't that a little backwards at the same time? If it's slow, there's no harm in a leisurely back-and-forth. Besides, you might be waking the controller up and hear "Bugsmasher 12.. ah.. aircraft calling, say again?" and then have to repeat it all.

On a busy frequency, arguably, getting it all out in one shot takes less air time.
Click to expand...

If it's quiet, you can pretty much do whatever you want, including giving traffic reports (BTDT! NorCal asked, presumably because they wanted to go driving up where I was after shift).

On a busy frequency, you're likely to get stepped on if you try to blast it all out at once, especially if you hesitate at any point. Let Center tell you when they are ready. They will often issue several instructions before getting back to you, particularly during a crunch in a nearby Class B or C (BTDT, too). And crunches like that do not necessarily mean you'll get refused. I've only had that happen twice, and one was right after the Asiana crash with dozens of diversions in the air.

It's also a good idea not to make a request right after hearing an instruction, because you know a read back is coming right away.

Note that Center (and Approach) knows who is about to get handed off to them, especially for IFR traffic. You don't. They can predict when you'll get stepped on.
 
Last edited:
Unless I have a really short and easy flight following request or a transit request, I'll almost always initiate by saying "Norcal Approach, Arrow XXX with request." Certainly if I need a pop up IFR clearance.

It ensures I get my whole request in if ATC is busy, and it ensures I have their attention if they aren't.
 
I do the short version
"Regional approach, Tampico 546PC"

Less likely to step on or get stepped on.

For what its worth, do not say "with you". Nails on a chalkboard.
 
I've heard way too many others call in with a diatribe of what they need just to have the controller ask them to hang on or repeat what they say. Our local TRACON said it's better to just get their attention with "Grand Rapids Approach, Bugsmasher 98765." Then they know they are probably going to have to start copying info down.
 
I pretty much always get flight following if not IFR and start it off like this: "Big City Approach, Skylane 12345 VFR request." I was told this sometimes saves a busy controller from trying to find an aircraft on their scope that isn't there. Not sure how true that is but it seemed to make sense.
 
Depends on how busy the controller is. If he's so busy that you can barely get in a transmission, you can bet they aren't going to copy all your information. If you rattle off a long transmission they could be on the landline, now you just wasted a call. If you're too outside of frequency range you could be rattling off a long wasted transmission as well. With a long transmission you could be talking over someone on approaches other freq that you don't know about.

So, in most cases I give a wake up call. When you call approach for FF, most likely what they'll do is look for your callsign on their board. You won't be on it so they'll either write your callsign down and say "N12345 go ahead" or if they're swamped they'll just say "N12345, if you're requesting FF I don't have time right now."

There are sometimes where a wake up even works better for when the controller knows exactly who you are and where you're going. For instance, in EMS I use FF for calling approach everyday. The controller already sees my code, all they have to do is tell me to ident and say altitude. After that, they'll give radar contact, position, altimeter and report the hospital in sight. All that with very little input from me.

To me it's not a big deal either way. Through time you'll see which technique works best. It becomes a pain when a student keys up out of no where in a busy airspace and stumbles through a long FF request transmission. :(
 
A lot of good responses on here. I work busy airspace. Lot of IFR traffic. Lot of talking. I don't have much time to waste on the frequency. We still regularly approve flight following, but keep these tips in mind.

1) K.I.S.S. Just get the controller's attention. A simple "approach, N12345, over" goes a long way. Whether I'm busy or not, I know there is an aircraft that needs something from me, and patient enough to wait. I can grab a blank strip and start writing down information when I get a break in the action.

2) Find the right frequency. Almost all sectionals/TAC charts show suggested VFR advisory frequencies for approach control. Typically, these are our slower sectors. The controller has time to help you out. If you aren't sure of the frequency, don't worry. Keep suggestion #1 in mind, and when you give your information most controllers will give you a recommended frequency.

3) When all else fails, call the center. Use the Enroute Low charts to find out the nearby center frequency. More likely than not, they won't be the sector you are in. But they will know where you belong.

4) VFR advisories are optional services. Why mention this? If the controller is busy, you probably won't get an answer right away. Be patient. Wait for a break in the action, and do the simple call up again. Unless the controller acknowledges and denies FF, they may not know if you are still on the frequency. If you check on a busy frequency and tie up the frequency with your full information and request, you may get a curt denial.

I have denied FF because the aircraft tied up my frequency (with the full verbose request) while I was busy. I've never denied FF when the aircraft called on with just a call sign, busy or not. Be patient and courteous and you'll do fine.
 
EdFred said:
I've heard way too many others call in with a diatribe of what they need just to have the controller ask them to hang on or repeat what they say. Our local TRACON said it's better to just get their attention with "Grand Rapids Approach, Bugsmasher 98765." Then they know they are probably going to have to start copying info down.
Click to expand...

I do the same thing now. Center frequencies around here are generally quiet enough that I used to try and give all the pertinent information in the initial call. I found that I had to repeat myself often enough that it is just easier to make an initial call and follow up with the request once the controller responds.
 
EdFred said:
I've heard way too many others call in with a diatribe of what they need just to have the controller ask them to hang on or repeat what they say. Our local TRACON said it's better to just get their attention with "Grand Rapids Approach, Bugsmasher 98765." Then they know they are probably going to have to start copying info down.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:


Mike
 
MarkZ said:
A lot of good responses on here. I work busy airspace. Lot of IFR traffic. Lot of talking. I don't have much time to waste on the frequency. We still regularly approve flight following, but keep these tips in mind.
[snip good stuff]
Be patient and courteous and you'll do fine.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing a perspective from the other side of the mic (so to speak). It really does help us bug smasher folks know what to do.

One thing I'm finding is that out west we're seeing one controller covering many sectors more often. The result is that even though it sounds quiet on frequency the controller is not immediately available. Just gotta be patient and wait 'til they have time to listen even though we can't directly hear how busy they are. It also makes me appreciate when the controller is immediately available.
 
I use the short form ,that gets their attention.
 
write-stuff said:
If you know for a fact that it will be the last controller and you have already listened to the weather at your destination, reply with "Mayberry approach, Cessna 12345, 5 thousand 5 hundred with Delta."
Click to expand...

Had never heard this one until my last trip up to Detroit. Was talking to ATC who I knew was going to hand me off to Willow Run. He asked me to let him know when I had the WX and, caught unsuspecting, I went hunting for AWOS instead of ATIS.

He was very patient and helpful but I wasn't aware of this practice until then. Nice to know.

I'm in the "Columbus approach, Cessna 1234R, VFR request" camp. Some times they'll just come back with "1234R, squawk nnnn." Then later, as he has time, he'll ask my A/C type, destination, alt., etc and give me Wx. Works for both of us.
 
Let's start off with Advisory Circular 90-42F, which covers communications at non-towered airports but contains valuable guidance for all communications. Then let's go to AIM 4-2-3, Initial Contact, to see what the feds recommend; it even gives examples. Do not fall into the trap of saying something on the radio just because you heard someone else say it...lots of bad communications procedures out there and you do not want to get infected. You can read the AC by going to www.faa.gov...you will see Advisory Circulars on the home page.

Knowing what the controller is going to say makes it much easier to understand when s/he says it. On the faa.gov page, type 7110.65 in the search box; you will get a link to FAA Order 7110.65, which is the Air Traffic Handbook containing the phraseology that controllers are required to use; pilots do not have mandatory phraseology but controllers do.

Bob Gardner
 
fozzie bear said:
Hi all, new here. I probably won't post much unless I think I can really contribute, but I love learning. Since I have started this adventure, I have been reading everything I can find about flying. I've been training for exactly a year and totaled about 42 hours so far. I have about 1-2 more practice flights before scheduling a check ride. I fly from a non-towered airport and have only taken 2 flights where I needed to talk to a controller in tower. I'm not afraid or nervous to talk on the radio and generally know what to say and when. My biggest fear on the radio is hearing the controller; and I have good hearing.

I will be taking a short cross country next week (approx 60 nm each way) just for fun and want to practice using flight following. I'm not really concerned with how to ask for it, my question is about initial contact. I know my instructors opinion, but want to get others. In all of my research related to radio comms, I've observed some pilots that begin by contacting and immediately stating their request. I have observed about an equal number of others who establish 2-way contact first and then state request. Is there a preferred method for controllers? The first choice seems it would save airtime, but is it necessary to get their attention first?
Click to expand...


First post............

Welcome to POA...:cheers:
 
MarkZ said:
A lot of good responses on here. I work busy airspace. Lot of IFR traffic. Lot of talking. I don't have much time to waste on the frequency. We still regularly approve flight following, but keep these tips in mind.

1) K.I.S.S. Just get the controller's attention. A simple "approach, N12345, over" goes a long way. Whether I'm busy or not, I know there is an aircraft that needs something from me, and patient enough to wait. I can grab a blank strip and start writing down information when I get a break in the action.

2) Find the right frequency. Almost all sectionals/TAC charts show suggested VFR advisory frequencies for approach control. Typically, these are our slower sectors. The controller has time to help you out. If you aren't sure of the frequency, don't worry. Keep suggestion #1 in mind, and when you give your information most controllers will give you a recommended frequency.

3) When all else fails, call the center. Use the Enroute Low charts to find out the nearby center frequency. More likely than not, they won't be the sector you are in. But they will know where you belong.

4) VFR advisories are optional services. Why mention this? If the controller is busy, you probably won't get an answer right away. Be patient. Wait for a break in the action, and do the simple call up again. Unless the controller acknowledges and denies FF, they may not know if you are still on the frequency. If you check on a busy frequency and tie up the frequency with your full information and request, you may get a curt denial.

I have denied FF because the aircraft tied up my frequency (with the full verbose request) while I was busy. I've never denied FF when the aircraft called on with just a call sign, busy or not. Be patient and courteous and you'll do fine.
Click to expand...

I'd call this the definitive answer. Thanks, Mark.
 
MarkZ said:
A lot of good responses on here. I work busy airspace. Lot of IFR traffic. Lot of talking. I don't have much time to waste on the frequency. We still regularly approve flight following, but keep these tips in mind.

1) K.I.S.S. Just get the controller's attention. A simple "approach, N12345, over" goes a long way. Whether I'm busy or not, I know there is an aircraft that needs something from me, and patient enough to wait. I can grab a blank strip and start writing down information when I get a break in the action.

2) Find the right frequency. Almost all sectionals/TAC charts show suggested VFR advisory frequencies for approach control. Typically, these are our slower sectors. The controller has time to help you out. If you aren't sure of the frequency, don't worry. Keep suggestion #1 in mind, and when you give your information most controllers will give you a recommended frequency.

3) When all else fails, call the center. Use the Enroute Low charts to find out the nearby center frequency. More likely than not, they won't be the sector you are in. But they will know where you belong.

4) VFR advisories are optional services. Why mention this? If the controller is busy, you probably won't get an answer right away. Be patient. Wait for a break in the action, and do the simple call up again. Unless the controller acknowledges and denies FF, they may not know if you are still on the frequency. If you check on a busy frequency and tie up the frequency with your full information and request, you may get a curt denial.

I have denied FF because the aircraft tied up my frequency (with the full verbose request) while I was busy. I've never denied FF when the aircraft called on with just a call sign, busy or not. Be patient and courteous and you'll do fine.
Click to expand...

We had a few guy's from TRACON out at the airport I fly out of and they couldn't tell us enough to just say "NY Approach Cherokee 12345" then when they acknowledge start your dialog..
 
PLease, please, please, don't start off radio contact with "And" whatever approach.
 
Hi Fozzie,

Since it sounds like you are a student pilot (and forgive me if this is not true) I would recommend you identify yourself as a student to ATC.

"Doofusville Approach, N12345, Student Pilot". In my experience ATC will give you as much extra attention as they can afford. You know that radar services to a VFR pilot are on a workload permitting basis. Back when I was a student, I had several situations where the controller refused radar services to three or four pilots in a row but when I announced "student" ATC immediately provided radar services. They really do try to help.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Hi Fozzie,

Since it sounds like you are a student pilot (and forgive me if this is not true) I would recommend you identify yourself as a student to ATC.

"Doofusville Approach, N12345, Student Pilot". In my experience ATC will give you as much extra attention as they can afford. You know that radar services to a VFR pilot are on a workload permitting basis. Back when I was a student, I had several situations where the controller refused radar services to three or four pilots in a row but when I announced "student" ATC immediately provided radar services. They really do try to help.

-Skip
Click to expand...

That's sound advice, and very much true.
 
Skip Miller said:
Hi Fozzie,

Since it sounds like you are a student pilot (and forgive me if this is not true) I would recommend you identify yourself as a student to ATC.

"Doofusville Approach, N12345, Student Pilot". In my experience ATC will give you as much extra attention as they can afford. You know that radar services to a VFR pilot are on a workload permitting basis. Back when I was a student, I had several situations where the controller refused radar services to three or four pilots in a row but when I announced "student" ATC immediately provided radar services. They really do try to help.

-Skip
Click to expand...

One of the best things my instructor taught me was to use the terms "student pilot" while training then "new pilot" and "unfamiliar" on the radio. Just those simple words change the context of the request and interaction to "please help me" as opposed to some of the demanding tones from experienced pilots or complete clueless from new or insecure pilots that you can hear on the radio.

I also try and be a student of correct and professional radio communication and also start initial contact for FF with "Approach, Skylane123AB, request"...then wait.
 
Last edited:
MAKG1 said:
Tune the frequency and listen. If it's quiet, blast away. If it's hard to get a word in edgewise, break in when you can with "Podunk Center Bugsmasher 123XY" (you can add "with request," but it will be assumed if you don't).
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I do. Bonus points if you talk at the same time as someone else the shorter the better.
 
Thanks everyone for the great responses. Makes things seem much easier now. It seems it really depends on the circumstances. In this case, contacting a busy controller with a long request, to contact first, then request. Inbound in a low volume Class D tower, go ahead and state landing request on initial contact. I was planning on including "student pilot" in my request; I don't want to give any indication that I am experienced in the matter.
 
I'm waiting for the day when I hear the words "student controller" appended to my landing clearance.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm waiting for the day when I hear the words "student controller" appended to my landing clearance.
Click to expand...

You won't. When you hear another voice giving clearances (and sounding annoyed) then you'll know which one is the trainee and which one is the trainer. :yes:
 
I need some sort of tongue in cheek smilie, I guess.
 
fozzie bear said:
Thanks everyone for the great responses. Makes things seem much easier now. It seems it really depends on the circumstances. In this case, contacting a busy controller with a long request, to contact first, then request. Inbound in a low volume Class D tower, go ahead and state landing request on initial contact. I was planning on including "student pilot" in my request; I don't want to give any indication that I am experienced in the matter.
Click to expand...

Use the "student pilot" if you feel it's necessary. It's encouraged by the AIM.

I reserved it for when I had a problem. Which never happened.

The worst bit of confusion came rather recently when I asked for a Class C transition over Oakland and got cleared to land. On a noisy channel, it wasn't all that obvious what was going on. But I haven't been a student pilot for a few years.
 
MarkZ said:
You won't. When you hear another voice giving clearances (and sounding annoyed) then you'll know which one is the trainee and which one is the trainer. :yes:
Click to expand...
I've heard that.... more than once. ;)

It chilled me out for future Class C hinterland excursions on CAVU days. We all have to train. :yes:

BTW, thanks for the informative post.
 
It initiating the conversation, I was instructed to call " SoCal, Cessna1234 Request" then wait to be asked what I wanted, If being handed off from a tower then its "SoCal Cessna 1234 with you two thousand five hundred for three thousand five hundred". etc etc

Again having an idea of what they are going to say back to you is half the battle.

Something I always do when signing of a frequency, whether its a hand off or last call of the day is just a simple " thanks for your help" ....I get lots of surprised, "your welcome" :yesnod:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top