Income and aircraft survey

Ted DuPuis said:
It depends on what you have. If you're flying a King Air/Commander/MU-2 of a similar vintage to most of our planes, you could easily do it in the $250-500k range, potentially lower depending on the rest of your expenses. Similar for some of the earlier jets out there. However, part of the understanding with that is that when the engines you, you buy used ones or scrap the plane.

If I was making the average income answered on here, I could afford a 421 easily. Would I choose to? Probably not, but I could.
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I would not choose to have a 421 if I wasn't making $100k a year.
 
Henning said:
Correct, those are the people I work for and live with. Even in the mid six figures, the financial industry will let you leverage it to high sevens until they collapse the market and take everything you bought :lol:. Had a couple of those clients who still haven't recovered from 2008.



Single guy with a $50k income can afford up to a Bonanza/210/Comanche and will spend 1/3rd of their income on aviation. $30k and they can do an entry level SEL, $20k or less does an Ultralight. $70k will allow you to fly around in a 310, a Baron, or Aztec. For a cabin class twin, you need to be pulling in $120k or better, and some years it may eat 50% of that, pressurized cabin class twin make it $150k. Once you are playing with turbo props, single or twin, you need to be in the top half of six figures, and likely have it structured as a tax write off on a business.



Jets come in many flavors, but unless you're playing with fringe planes, you are looking to be in the 7 figure income territory for your small/mid biz jets on up.
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Even the 7-figure guy would have to think twice before chartering a long-range jet to Asia or Europe... Maybe it needs to be 8-figures before you can "do what you want" :)
 
Everskyward said:
Married with two incomes and no kids - looking at Nate (DenverPilot), etc.
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True. And I also refused to buy until we could afford it on a single salary. The "no kids" thing helped get there sooner in life, I suppose, but does whitewash the discipline necessary to own nice things.

I know plenty of folks with kids with way bigger houses and piles of toys that cost similar or more than our share of the 182.

I shudder to think what their balance sheets look like.

I know that even they may be doing it the sensible way, but also know them well enough to be pretty sure they're not. Plus two high end new cars, a $500K or higher house, paying landscapers to do all the outdoor work every summer, a boat and jet skis that aren't very old, travel trailers (not quite as big as ours, but almost as new) and everyone in the house has the latest gadgetry and high end clothing brands, regular massive remodels to the house, including basement remake into a full blown theater...

I know those numbers only add up to one thing. Lots and lots of debt. They'll be paying on that right up until the day they die unless they sell stuff and take some losses along the way.

I'm not the type to say they shouldn't e doing that if that's the way they want to live, but for sake of this discussion, I just bring it up to point out that they could very easily afford an aircraft utilizing that much debt, if they cut out some of the other things.

Also pretty sure they're not sitting on any family fortunes or residual income streams. Nor have a plan for retirement.

That's a big one right there for us DINKs and why I say we were still overly cautious when purchasing. There aren't any ankle-biters around who'll grow up and be willing to care for dear old mom and dad. Whether one or both of us is around into significant old age, we have to be pretty careful that we can pay for a level of care and professionals to look after things when we start to lose our marbles. Since, we all eventually get there. But we won't have any kids around to notice we've totally jacked things up fiscally or aren't understanding our own retirement funding at some point.

We can hope the nephews and nieces might poke a nose in and at least keep us from being totally abused, but we aren't counting on it. And hiring professionals to do it is both risky that you need ones you know you can trust and also expensive.

Being DINKs does have disadvantages. I may not have to put the dogs through college, but I do have to save up for long-term care in case it happens and also pay higher taxes than everyone else my entire adult life. Society penalizes not breeding still at this stage. China of course, doesn't. M

We'll overpopulate as much as they have eventually, and we will stop that particular taxation subsidy. Won't happen in my lifetime by the numbers I've run, though.
 
Henning said:
Correct, those are the people I work for and live with. Even in the mid six figures, the financial industry will let you leverage it to high sevens until they collapse the market and take everything you bought :lol:. Had a couple of those clients who still haven't recovered from 2008.



Single guy with a $50k income can afford up to a Bonanza/210/Comanche and will spend 1/3rd of their income on aviation. $30k and they can do an entry level SEL, $20k or less does an Ultralight. $70k will allow you to fly around in a 310, a Baron, or Aztec. For a cabin class twin, you need to be pulling in $120k or better, and some years it may eat 50% of that, pressurized cabin class twin make it $150k. Once you are playing with turbo props, single or twin, you need to be in the top half of six figures, and likely have it structured as a tax write off on a business.



Jets come in many flavors, but unless you're playing with fringe planes, you are looking to be in the 7 figure income territory for your small/mid biz jets on up.
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$70K a year in a Baron? Enjoy the bankruptcy proceedings! Haha.
 
EdFred said:
All you have to do is read what I posted in this thread. It's not my fault if you don't follow my example.
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Ed, you don't have kids. Most people here want their kids in good schools, and THAT costs money. It either costs money in high property values in good public school districts or it costs money in private school expenses in neighborhoods with bad schools.

Parenthood changes a lot, Ed, it really does. And yes, we all choose how we want to live our lives. Everything is a balance.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Ed, you don't have kids. Most people here want their kids in good schools, and THAT costs money. It either costs money in high property values in good public school districts or it costs money in private school expenses in neighborhoods with bad schools.

Parenthood changes a lot, Ed, it really does. And yes, we all choose how we want to live our lives. Everything is a balance.
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Amen. And airplanes and kids CAN mix, but if i had to choose one toy that had family time as a major requirement, it would be a boat before a plane.

The primary rason we have a family plane is so that our kids will grow up knowing their grandparents and cousins in our far-flung family. The plane is just another family car, it is not a destination unto itself.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Sailing guys complain the same re: kids/family. Answer is the same, wait for the kids to grow and the wife to shrivel.
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My answer for families is partnership. When my partner and I bought the Mooney, it was just the two of us, both childless families. As kids came along and flying time decreased (as kid expense increased), we ended up taking on a third and then fourth partner. All families. It works out really well for us and keeps the plane flying more. Google calendar makes scheduling a breeze.

Same goes for sailboats or any other expensive toy that spends 80% of it's time sitting in the hangar or on the dock. Partner that thing!
 
denverpilot said:
$70K a year in a Baron? Enjoy the bankruptcy proceedings! Haha.
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??? A Baron or 310 costs between $25-$30k to own/operate 100 hrs a year. $40k a year is more than plenty for me to live on, more than plenty, I won't be going bankrupt.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Ed, you don't have kids. Most people here want their kids in good schools, and THAT costs money. It either costs money in high property values in good public school districts or it costs money in private school expenses in neighborhoods with bad schools.

Parenthood changes a lot, Ed, it really does. And yes, we all choose how we want to live our lives.Everything is a balance.
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The statement of only good schools have high taxes isn't true. I live in a very good school system, and my taxes are only about 1% of my house's value. Buy a cheap house in a good school system. There's 10 million dollar plus estates in my school district, and there's $10,000 trailers - and everything in between. The kids get the exact same education from the school.
 
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Henning said:
I would not choose to have a 421 if I wasn't making $100k a year.
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Per the survey, mean was $250k and median was $200k.
 
EdFred said:
The statement of only good schools have high taxes isn't true. I live in a very good school system, and my taxes are only about 1% of my house's value. Buy a cheap house in a good school system. There's 10 million dollar plus estates in my school district, and there's $10,000 trailers - and everything in between. The kids get the exact same education from the school.
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Right, and if you want a particular quality of house it will tend to cost more in a good school district.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Right, and if you want a particular quality of house it will tend to cost more in a good school district.
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Well, that's where thought processes diverge. You've been to my house. Fancy? Nope. A piece of ****? Nope. Will it ever be featured? Nope. But there aren't any issues with it, and I've got almost an acre and a decent workshop.

It doesn't have a 2 story entry, $500/sq ft tile flooring in the kitchen, and $800 heating or cooling bills. But when people opt for those options, of course they are going to get bent over on taxes. I didn't buy my place to impress anyone. I bought it as a place to live. I don't care what the Joneses are doing. Well Chris and Rachel, yeah, but not the rest of them. And that's the issue with people that "need" a 4000sq ft house. Unless you have 12 kids, there's no need for something that big.
 
EdFred said:
Well, that's where thought processes diverge. You've been to my house. Fancy? Nope. A piece of ****? Nope. Will it ever be featured? Nope. But there aren't any issues with it, and I've got almost an acre and a decent workshop.

It doesn't have a 2 story entry, $500/sq ft tile flooring in the kitchen, and $800 heating or cooling bills. But when people opt for those options, of course they are going to get bent over on taxes. I didn't buy my place to impress anyone. I bought it as a place to live. I don't care what the Joneses are doing. Well Chris and Rachel, yeah, but not the rest of them. And that's the issue with people that "need" a 4000sq ft house. Unless you have 12 kids, there's no need for something that big.
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Your logic makes sense as a single guy.

However... Let's take a typical family with two kids. If you have enough money to afford a plane, your wife is probably not going to tolerate being house poor and/or low grade education for your kids to indulge your flying habit. So you're looking at a four bedroom house at least in a good area. That costs $'s. You also need to put aside money for their college.

I'm not surprised at all by the results of this survey, even if unscientific. You really do need to have a household income at that level to justify this hobby if you have a family with the associated responsibilities.
 
narchee said:
Your logic makes sense as a single guy.

However... Let's take a typical family with two kids. If you have enough money to afford a plane, your wife is probably not going to tolerate being house poor and/or low grade education for your kids to indulge your flying habit. So you're looking at a four bedroom house at least in a good area. That costs $'s. You also need to put aside money for their college.

I'm not surprised at all by the results of this survey, even if unscientific. You really do need to have a household income at that level to justify this hobby if you have a family with the associated responsibilities.
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When did this line of thinking permeate that parents' are responsible for their kids college? None of my friends that I knew from church or HS had their parents pay for their kids education. Its their education, they are responsible for paying for it. Do it via scholarship, or do like I did and work a full time job while taking on 15-18 credit hours. I went to work, went to class, and went to bed.
 
The kid/school/expensive house necessity bit is just an excuse for caving to the femme imperative of overbuying housing. We rent a small house in a good district and when the bird has flown, we're off to a condo on the beach or an rv or a sailboat. Rent during school years will amount to less then mortgage interest on a 'proper' suburban home.
 
Again, comes down to choices. Some people decide to live in a less expensive house to afford being in a better school district. I think most people would choose to do that who have kids, but I think most people with families would not choose to live in less of a house than they want so they can afford to fly.
 
As far as paying for the kid's college, I really hope they work and get scholarships.
I was a pretty smart kid but I didn't care about much so I needed financial help to get through school.

I didn't want to go but mom and dad basically said they would pay for it if I would go.

It was life changing and I want to position myself to pay that forward.
My plan prior to college was to be a restaurant manager at outback steakhouse (I was a cook there) I have had an I.T. career that has been far better to me than I deserve.

I save for their college and if they get scholorships, I'll get a boat.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Again, comes down to choices. Some people decide to live in a less expensive house to afford being in a better school district. I think most people would choose to do that who have kids, but I think most people with families would not choose to live in less of a house than they want so they can afford to fly.
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But that again comes down to a choice rather than "I can't/It's impossible"

If someone chooses to live in a $375,000 house, and pay out 30% of their income when they could get one in the same district for $125-150,000, and only pay out 10% of their income, well, that's just dumb.

I have a friend that just bought an $85,000 dollar LOT. Just so he can live among all the other McMansions. It's just him and he has split custody of two kids, but this thing is over 5,000 sq ft maybe 6,000. 5 or 6 bedrooms 3 laundry rooms, two kitchens. Custom built. Overkill. Just so he can look cool.
 
EdFred said:
But that again comes down to a choice rather than "I can't/It's impossible"

If someone chooses to live in a $375,000 house, and pay out 30% of their income when they could get one in the same district for $125-150,000, and only pay out 10% of their income, well, that's just dumb.

I have a friend that just bought an $85,000 dollar LOT. Just so he can live among all the other McMansions. It's just him and he has split custody of two kids, but this thing is over 5,000 sq ft maybe 6,000. 5 or 6 bedrooms 3 laundry rooms, two kitchens. Custom built. Overkill. Just so he can look cool.
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I have an airplane for that.....:D
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
It was life changing and I want to position myself to pay that forward.
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My parents paid for school, and when I graduated, I asked Dad about how to start a payment plan to pay him back. He said you don't pay me, you do it for your kids. And with a handshake, that was a deal that will never be broken.
 
everyone is an expert on kids until they have some

I fully intend to pay for my daughters higher education, and I've been saving for them since they were born. Debt is a shackle holding people down their whole lives. I can't think of a better use of my money than to give my kids a debt-free start at their working lives.

We don't have any debt. We also live in a modest house and drive used cars. We don't want for anything, we have plenty of toys (most built from wrecks bought cheaply). Our stuff is not as nice as some other people's stuff - even if we spent 10x as much there would still be someone with a nicer house, newer cars, faster airplanes. Once you start measuring your possessions against those of others it becomes a cycle of misery. These things we buy are supposed to add to our quality of life but for many people it seems to be the opposite.
 
Profound words, Jeff, and I could not agree more.
 
EdFred said:
When did this line of thinking permeate that parents' are responsible for their kids college? None of my friends that I knew from church or HS had their parents pay for their kids education. Its their education, they are responsible for paying for it. Do it via scholarship, or do like I did and work a full time job while taking on 15-18 credit hours. I went to work, went to class, and went to bed.
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Or learn German or Swedish and you can go to college there for free, even as an American; you can likely even manage in English.
 
Henning said:
Or learn German or Swedish and you can go to college there for free, even as an American; you can likely even manage in English.
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This is true. We are the only major industrialized country where education and health care is not for the most part free.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I save for their college and if they get scholorships, I'll get a boat.
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Keep in mind that the people setting the prices know that this is your (and everyone else's plan).

The kids will get scholarships and you'll still pay whatever you had saved up for the boat.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Saw this on CNN. Thought of this thread
http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/middle-class-calculator/

Question I have is if I move to a location where top of middle class is much lower, do I have more buying power? Or are prices of goods / services irrespective of location?
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I dunno how accurate their definition of middle class is. I'm even considered middle class in San Francisco county. And I know I couldn't afford to live there on my monthly salary.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Saw this on CNN. Thought of this thread
http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/middle-class-calculator/

Question I have is if I move to a location where top of middle class is much lower, do I have more buying power? Or are prices of goods / services irrespective of location?
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All that does is to place your income within a range of incomes in the county you entered, it really shows more of what the middle income range rather than whether or not you're in the middle class. For example, I live in Fulton County, GA, and I'm in the upper middle range there. There's a small town in south Georgia that hosts a triathlon every year, that I've done a few times. In that county, I'd be in the upper income group if I moved there, provided that I was able to maintain the same income. Things being the way they are, higher incomes usually correlate to higher cost of living areas, so it's unlikely that I'd find a similar paying job there, if I could find one at all.

If you moved to a lower cost of living area, you'd pay less for housing, and less to maintain your house, the cost of services should be significantly lower. Utilities should be just about the same, so would medical and dental. Things you buy in stores should be a little cheaper, but since most things are produced by national concerns, the difference is not much. Housing's going to be your big hitter, cost wise.
 
In 2005 I spent a little over $50k on flying. It scared me that I spent the same amount on my first seven cars. I stopped counting. Currently I rent because I only get about 40 hours a year in. I rent dry @ $140 and hour, fuel is around $90 an hour.

Oh and as far as kids, during the same year my 2 kids were in college and they were cheaper, by a long way!
 
Jimmy cooper said:
This is true. We are the only major industrialized country where education and health care is not for the most part free.
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beware, you'll attract the ire of the tea party types that propagate this board...
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Saw this on CNN. Thought of this thread
http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/middle-class-calculator/

Question I have is if I move to a location where top of middle class is much lower, do I have more buying power? Or are prices of goods / services irrespective of location?
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Prices of goods and services are pretty much even globally. The difference is how low of quality stuff is available on the market. People used to always talk about how cheap it is to live here or there and retiring to those places, but then they realize, to live at that cost, you have to live like a local, with nothing.

The only thing that really varies significantly across the U.S. is the cost of housing.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
This is true. We are the only major industrialized country where education and health care is not for the most part free.
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Where I live education is free through high school, and if you are poor (or lie) your health care is too... Cash and food on the ole EBT card for those in need also. There is no such a thing as "free" someone must pay.
In Germany after high school you either go to trade school, become an apprentice or go to the university. That is after the military for able males. You will do something with your life or be trained in something, not so much for us in the USA.
 
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