Income and aircraft survey

German guy said:
I believe I am a cheap bastard.
No debt, other than the mortgage for the house, my wife and I have decent jobs, some additional savings, no kids, no boat, no fancy cars, no cabin or other financial obligations and fly a 1966 Cessna 172 with a mogas STC. Fixed costs for hangar and insurance are just $210 / month + maybe another $100 / month for the owner assisted annual.

Regarding the variable costs, I assume per hour around $32 for gas, $10 for the engine overhaul and another $20 for repairs: ~60 - 70 / hour, not including upgrades like paint or a new interior.

At 80 hours / year and $65 / hour, we'd end up at around $8,920 / year, including fixed cost, but still without upgrades. The capital employed for the acquisition of the plane is also not taken into consideration.

This is certainly a lot of money, but still something somebody with a 'normal' job can afford, if he wants to and sets the priorities right.
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Yep, I bet there are some golfers that spend that type of money in a year.
 
TexasAviation said:
So that made me wonder ... what percentage of annual income do airplane owners spend on their planes?
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You're not going to be able to come to a determination on this based on this survey. You're going to have a wide range of incomes and non-proportional expenses that aren't related to income. I would suggest doing a scatter chart based on your results, might be able to see a pattern.
 
Shawn said:
Exactly...it is not your income that matters, it is your disposable income that is important and that is determined by your proprieties in life...which applies to any income level.
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I guess everybody heard about superstars who make multiple million $$$ / year and still go broke. They could not even afford a crashed ultralight project....
 
Rcmutz said:
I'm at 3-4% including fuel, assuming 40 hrs/year.
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I just did a rough calculation considering I'm switching airports and my cost will go up. But then again, I will be driving less, so it might even out.
 
Depends on the aircraft, how many hours flown and cost of hangar. High performance retracts like Bonanzas cost more in MX and fuel than a Cessna 172. I'm between jobs right now after a recent layoff so I'm renting until I'm back working and have replaced my emergency fund and maxed out yearly 401k. I'm glad that I waited. Maybe I'll buy when I retire and have the spare funds but renting makes the most sense for me right now and I can book fast Cessna 182 and Bonanzas in the club. One guy just spent a bunch of money on the club Bonanza to get new cylinders (6k!) and new generator put in and plane was in shape for 3 months.
 
I've projected up to 20pct of net income, but have historically ended up in the 12-15pct of net income all-in. That's in the rotten sticks (125mo hangar), paid off airplane, single income, wife in school and a two year old. we drive paid off old cars and aggressively undershoot housing.

Frankly, for me it's all in undershooting housing. my peers typically spend my entire flying budget plus my current housing cost combined, just in housing. Several actually exceed that figure in just housing. To each their own. My family eats and has shelter from the rain while enjoying the ability to get the hell away from the rotten sticks at 135nm per hour, which beats driving for us.
 
I also am saving for my plane. I figure purchase price about 100K plus 20K for mx reserve, 10k for insurance, hangar and fuel should be about right for first couple years.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Frankly, for me it's all in undershooting housing. my peers typically spend my entire flying budget plus my current housing cost combined, just in housing.
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It's pretty easy around these parts to fit flying in between what a realtor says you can afford and what sane people spend on housing.

5%, BTW (on my 1/4 share plane). DINKs, no car payments.
 
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Mine hovers right around the 20% mark (maybe a little higher, given the amount of my income being withdrawals from savings)[such is retirement life]
 
OK, the initial results are in from our (admittedly very unscientific) survey! I plugged the numbers into this Google spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UYYSeu-gdOzMolLXqJL7FcjkgTcuMsV1TwuuY5U2ajs/edit?usp=sharing

I deleted two entries. One person reported an annual income of $100 million, which is so much of an outlier it was skewing all the numbers like crazy. If that's accurate, more power to you, Mr. or Ms. Hundred-Millionaire!

And one person reported an aircraft value of $0, so I'm assuming they rent and shouldn't be a part of this survey.

After 72 entries, the numbers are:

AVERAGE
Annual income:
$252,100.00

Aircraft value: $136,357.14
% income: 54.09%

Annual expense: $19,425.00
% income: 7.71%



MEDIAN
Annual income:
$197,500.00

Aircraft value: $77,500.00
% income: 39.24%

Annual expense: $12,000.00
% income: 6.08%
 
Well, I have learned one thing for sure.. People on this site aren't poor.
 
dans2992 said:
Disagree. Plane is significantly more expensive.

When we had our daughter, I barely noticed the impact. The plane - I notice. Maybe that's because I track plane expenses better, however.
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They get more expensive as they get older. My eldest had $8000 worth of orthdontia and oral surgery. The alternative was to expect her teeth to fall out by age 40. If you're a dual earner family, day care can be rough.
 
I obviously don't make near enough money to have an airplane. :yikes:
 
I obviously don't make near enough money to have an airplane. :yikes:
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Maybe it is like I have always been told about the bumble bee, Justin. Scientifically, he can't fly but nobody has told him that :)!
 
ClimbnSink said:
Should ask # cars, boats, campers, and exwives. And how far your house is from an ocean, that's a big dollar to mile correlation. Dumping toys and dumping toy debt most people could afford a plane. Most don't have the will to stand up to consumer peer pressure and the airplane that they could afford would never be on the cover of flying mag. So they'd rather have a pontoon boat and wank off to pictures of turbine airplanes. Heard there is a flight school in Cali that practically gives airplanes away
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German guy said:
I believe I am a cheap bastard.
No debt, other than the mortgage for the house, my wife and I have decent jobs, some additional savings, no kids, no boat, no fancy cars, no cabin or other financial obligations and fly a 1966 Cessna 172 with a mogas STC. Fixed costs for hangar and insurance are just $210 / month + maybe another $100 / month for the owner assisted annual.

Regarding the variable costs, I assume per hour around $32 for gas, $10 for the engine overhaul and another $20 for repairs: ~60 - 70 / hour, not including upgrades like paint or a new interior.

At 80 hours / year and $65 / hour, we'd end up at around $8,920 / year, including fixed cost, but still without upgrades. The capital employed for the acquisition of the plane is also not taken into consideration.

This is certainly a lot of money, but still something somebody with a 'normal' job can afford, if he wants to and sets the priorities right.
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I can't agree with you guys. Median household income in the U. S. is below $60,000 per year. If someone making that income were single and had very low housing expenses, lived in a low cost of living area, and found cheap hangar rent, maybe he could pull it off. Maybe, I'm not sure, especially if you when you include having to come up with the purchase price.

Even for someone with a much higher income, if that person has a family, it's not going to happen. Case in point, me. Our family income is in the very low six figures,and there's no way I can afford an airplane. As far as the expensive toys go, we have none, and no club memberships either. We buy new cars that average about $30,000 each, and drive them 8 to 12 years before getting a new one. I do half a dozen running races and a couple of short distance triathlons per year, and probably spend $500 per year on entry fees, shoes, and clothing. I go to a couple of car races per year, about $150 for tickets, that's all we spent on sports tickets last year. We don't go to concerts or live shows. We borrowed $220,000 to buy a house 17 years ago, still owe about $36,000. We try to eat out once a week, but don't always make it, sometimes a child's activity gets in the way or my wife is on call. Speaking of her, she's the only one I've had. She works sporadically, so we've never spent much on child care. She cleans our house, I do the yardwork, lots of home improvement and maintenance, and some mechanical work on the cars. Since we've been married, we've flown a total of four round trips on the airlines, three of which included our daughters. My wife is not a clothes horse. Both children are in public school.

Where's the money go? Housing, for sure. Our house is getting to the age where it is starting to need some things. This isn't helped by the sorry quality of fixtures that the builder put in. Food, taxes, car expenses, children's activities, a little bit for clothing, medical and dental. I'm looking at a pay stub, and between Federal, State, Medicare, Social Security, 401k, long term disability, flexible spending for medical, and my share of the health insurance, a third of the paycheck is gone before I get it. I suppose we could have bought a less expensive house, but there are tradeoffs. A friend of mine did that, but now he's paying for private school because he's not impressed with what the public schools offer in his area. But even if we did, and sent our children to public schools anyway, and cut out their activities, we still couldn't afford any airplane. Even if we managed to squeeze out enough to pay for the airplane, then what? Are we going to fly locally 100 hours per year? No, we'd want to go somewhere, and that costs money too.

No, the average family cannot afford an airplane.

One last thing, if any of the above sounds like complaining, I apologize, it's not meant to. We have it way, way better than most families in America, and for that matter, the world, and we are very thankful for that. I'm just trying to make the point that your situation has to be exceptional to afford an airplane.
 
I have a six figure income but I rent airplanes. Maybe having a boat, rv, pool and atv's and 3 kids and wife come into play why I rent. I cannot give any of them up. I plan to
Own an airplane within the next 5 years. Oh I forget our 3300sq feet house is one year old. The above toys is all paid for except for the rv. I make payments on it but it's considered a second home so I claim the interest during tax time.
 
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I will say this, when I was working 9 to 5 and my income was under $100K annual, I didn't think about it with kids and a wife and mortgage yada yada.

Only after our income went up and we paid off all the debts and booted the kids out I said "honey, I'd like to get back into flying"

One thing led to another .. so here we are with her bitching about what the plane costs, and me griping that she buys too many GD shoes. :D
 
Formerhangie buy and drive two 15k cars and there is your airplane. Kids have tons of toys? Not judging, the amount of trinkety crap toys my wife buys for the kid, makes me nuts. Adds up to real money.
 
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FormerHangie said:
I can't agree with you guys. Median household income in the U. S. is below $60,000 per year. If someone making that income were single and had very low housing expenses, lived in a low cost of living area, and found cheap hangar rent, maybe he could pull it off. Maybe, I'm not sure, especially if you when you include having to come up with the purchase price.

Even for someone with a much higher income, if that person has a family, it's not going to happen. Case in point, me. Our family income is in the very low six figures,and there's no way I can afford an airplane. As far as the expensive toys go, we have none, and no club memberships either. We buy new cars that average about $30,000 each, and drive them 8 to 12 years before getting a new one. I do half a dozen running races and a couple of short distance triathlons per year, and probably spend $500 per year on entry fees, shoes, and clothing. I go to a couple of car races per year, about $150 for tickets, that's all we spent on sports tickets last year. We don't go to concerts or live shows. We borrowed $220,000 to buy a house 17 years ago, still owe about $36,000. We try to eat out once a week, but don't always make it, sometimes a child's activity gets in the way or my wife is on call. Speaking of her, she's the only one I've had. She works sporadically, so we've never spent much on child care. She cleans our house, I do the yardwork, lots of home improvement and maintenance, and some mechanical work on the cars. Since we've been married, we've flown a total of four round trips on the airlines, three of which included our daughters. My wife is not a clothes horse. Both children are in public school.

Where's the money go? Housing, for sure. Our house is getting to the age where it is starting to need some things. This isn't helped by the sorry quality of fixtures that the builder put in. Food, taxes, car expenses, children's activities, a little bit for clothing, medical and dental. I'm looking at a pay stub, and between Federal, State, Medicare, Social Security, 401k, long term disability, flexible spending for medical, and my share of the health insurance, a third of the paycheck is gone before I get it. I suppose we could have bought a less expensive house, but there are tradeoffs. A friend of mine did that, but now he's paying for private school because he's not impressed with what the public schools offer in his area. But even if we did, and sent our children to public schools anyway, and cut out their activities, we still couldn't afford any airplane. Even if we managed to squeeze out enough to pay for the airplane, then what? Are we going to fly locally 100 hours per year? No, we'd want to go somewhere, and that costs money too.

No, the average family cannot afford an airplane.

One last thing, if any of the above sounds like complaining, I apologize, it's not meant to. We have it way, way better than most families in America, and for that matter, the world, and we are very thankful for that. I'm just trying to make the point that your situation has to be exceptional to afford an airplane.
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You got it all wrong.... I work a average job making around $19.00 per hour. I am 42 and have been working here since I was 18. I can tell you one thing, I am not a lazy ass... I am always trying to make a buck. I buy and sell pilot supplies on the side to help with my flying. Since the day I worked at my job I have worked overtime when available and try to get in 60 hours every week. Anything I buy I DO NOT fall in love with, everything is for sale at the right price. I have owned 10 airplanes to date and currently own 3. I sold the other 7 and made profits on all of them and my 3 are paid for from just wheeling and dealing. I have a wife and 12 year old son. I built a new average house in 2001. Some of my toys include my 2010 Pitts Model 12, 1940 Piper Cub, 1973 Cessna 172, 2011 Ducati 1198 Superbike, 2014 Kawasaki 310X jet ski, Baja outlaw 25 boat and some small motorcycles the family rides together. One key is to find a awesome wife. My wife does not ask for anything, she is happy having a roof over her head and food on the table. We keep our money separate. She has her money and buys what she wants and I have mine. In 14 years of marriage we have never argued about money...
I do not go on expensive vacations or sit in the bar. I fly my airplanes uninsured and have liability on everything else. I keep all 3 planes hangared for $310 a month. I do not invest a bunch of money, I figure my airplanes and toys are an investment. If I need money for a emergency I will just sell something. I do not just throw away or blow money, I always buy stuff with it that will have some value. I think different than most but I guess it works out.
The point of all this is to say you can do ANYTHING you put your mind to. You will not get airplanes sitting on the couch. You gotta hustle! I am so busy during the week I have no time to do anything working 12 hour night shifts plus buying and selling aviation stuff. I wake up, cook, spend about 30 minutes with the family and off to work.
I am off weekends and that is playtime....
Don't let anyone tell you a average working guy can't own a airplane.
A good banker is pretty awesome also.
 
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FormerHangie said:
I can't agree with you guys. Median household income in the U. S. is below $60,000 per year. If someone making that income were single and had very low housing expenses, lived in a low cost of living area, and found cheap hangar rent, maybe he could pull it off. Maybe, I'm not sure, especially if you when you include having to come up with the purchase price. [...]
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No doubt that if this income needs to feed a family of three or more persons, it will be tough. The kids will however not stay at home forever and not everybody has children.

Our hangar neighbor is a car mechanic without a wife or kids. He recently bought a Sonex which required some work. I don't know what exactly he paid, he indicated however that by the time he gets it back into the air, he will have a total of less than $20k in it. This thing is an experimental and sips fuel. I guess that the $160 for the hangar are probably his biggest expense, related to the ownership of this aircraft. I would guess that he makes in our area around $40k - $45k / year. Assuming, he does not have other financial obligations, I have no doubt that he can easily afford the plane and fly a few hours with it each month. An engineer, what is also in my range of 'normal' jobs, could probably pull it off even easier.

Some smaller planes, like the Rans S-14 have folding wings and can be stored inside a trailer. There is currently one on Barnstormers for $10,500 with a HKS 4-stroke engine. While this is no race horse, it is still a plane, a proven design and it brings one eventually where he wants to go. This is as cheap as flying gets. Again, though, we are back at setting priorities... :wink2:

Certainly, this is still too much for many and / or for various reasons not practicable. Aircraft ownership can however start at a few hundred bucks per months, unless it either has to be a PC-12 or nothing. A partnership might also be an option.
 
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TexasAviation said:
MEDIAN
Annual income:
$197,500.00

Aircraft value: $77,500.00
% income: 39.24%

Annual expense: $12,000.00
% income: 6.08%
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Seems about right - two earner household with one or both in a professional field earning and average of ~$100k/year each. The $12k/year looks familiar also, based on other surveys I've seen.

See also:
http://equityprivate.typepad.com/ep/2007/05/fairing_up_gene.html

"The median income of a General Aviation aircraft owner's household in the United States is $200,000. Two standard deviations from the mean household income of members of the Aircraft Owners and Pilot's Association (there are in excess of 400,000 of them) is $30,000 - $100,000 in household income."
 
As I said, people on this site are well off.

If anyone thinks the average family salary is 200k, they are indeed smoking the pipe
 
Kritchlow said:
As I said, people on this site are well off.

If anyone thinks the average family salary is 200k, they are indeed smoking the pipe
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I don't believe anyone has said that the average family makes that much. Just that the people who claimed to be aircraft owners who answered the survey claimed that much. And past surveys seem to confirm that comfortable income level.

If I did own an airplane it would be sub $25k, since that is as much as I'd care to invest. But then, I don't think my wife and I together ever made over $200k in any one year. If I had been an owner and replied to the survey I'd be among those with a household income currently about half the surveyed median.
 
Jim Logajan said:
I don't believe anyone has said that the average family makes that much. Just that the people who claimed to be aircraft owners who answered the survey claimed that much. And past surveys seem to confirm that comfortable income level.

If I did own an airplane it would be sub $25k, since that is as much as I'd care to invest. But then, I don't think my wife and I together ever made over $200k in any one year. If I had been an owner and replied to the survey I'd be among those with a household income currently about half the surveyed median.
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And all I'm saying is the good people of this site are well above average. I'm not envious, as I'm in the same category.

BUT... I am surprised.
 
Holy crap. I don't think I need to be owning an airplane now. Anyone want to buy a 182?
 
Nah. I don't give a hoot what the stats are anyway. I'll keep flying my old spam can on my meager salary, as long as I can keep my wife and kids clothed, sheltered, and fed. If I get in a bind, I'll sell the boat, jet ski, or a kidney. Besides, I doubt trading a 182 for a 172 would make much difference.

I wouldn't mind being even slightly below agerage with this group. As it stands, I could probably make more money shining shoes for the average POA member :D On a serious note, I'm walking proof that owning an airplane on substantially less money that what the survey says is average for this group, can be done without much sacrifice. One would have a hard time owning something super nice, but something like a 172, older 182, PA28, or even an early Bo can be handled with a sub-100K income without breaking the bank, IF you aren't making a huge house payment and driving expensive cars. etc. I make about 75-80K gross, wife and two kids, mortgage on an average home in rural Oklahoma, two paid off crew cab pickups that aren't brand new but just fine, a paid for older boat that's pretty slick, a paid for decent jet ski, a pretty nice paid for ATV, and zero consumer debt. All we have is a resonable mortgage and an airplane payment other than utilities and airplane fixed costs. Hangar is $720/yr and insurance is $890/yr. We own a 1962 182 that wasn't terribly expensive and doesn't look all that sharp, but it flies great and hauls my family around just fine. I think one could own an airplane of some kind for quite a bit less than what I make if one is smart with their money, and buys something that fits the budget. I can tell you that we aren't big spenders compared to some, but I've found that we haven't really sacrificed anything to feed my flying habit thus far. We haven't had the plane very long, so we'll see if that continues in the future.
 
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Yes, the average family can afford to own and fly an airplane, if ... and this is a BIG if ... they're willing to make the sacrifices to do so.

I bet very few people at the median income level ~$60k/year would be willing to make the deep sacrifices it would take to own a plane, like living in a lesser neighborhood, never eating out, driving old cars, etc. You'd have to be pretty crazy about aviation to make those kinds of choices ... but it absolutely could be done. And there are average-income and even some below-average-income pilots who do it every day.

Sorry. It just rubs me the wrong way when people have an attitude of defeat. Don't say "the average family cannot afford an airplane" because it's simply not true. They'd just have to save longer and sacrifice more deeply to make it happen.
 
I owned an old single while the kids where in college,then a twin when one graduated,now that both are out of school and I'm retired ,I bought a new two seat airplane as a retirement present for myself.
 
Above average is correct. We have a hobby that currently costs ~$8,000 in training. Not to be entered lightly.

Ownership question is how much are you USING that training, and then comparing that to the cost of ownership.

Another question should have been "Do you have a loan for the plane?"
 
what's the standard deviation on that mean ?
 
having an airplane can be paid for just like having another kid.

if an unexpected child comes along you don't say "that's it, we're going to lose the house". You figure out how to make a few changes and it all works out. Owning an airplane is the same way. Most of us **** money away on things we don't even notice.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Formerhangie buy and drive two 15k cars and there is your airplane.
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In my case I keep driving the 14 year old truck and the wife's car is 9 years old. Both look and drive well, so we'll keep them until we have reason to replace.

Kids have tons of toys? Not judging, the amount of trinkety crap toys my wife buys for the kid, makes me nuts. Adds up to real money.
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The only fancy toy my daughter has is her iPad, and that really because her school requires it. She has no video games, no Wii, no nothing. She and her friends get together and they write and record harmonies and their own songs on garageband. She also write stories and has a library card and reads 2-3 books a week. I don't know how I became so blessed, but I'm glad my daughter is entertained by her own mind instead of electronic nannys. She's never asked for a toy in her life, and sometimes really ahs to rack her brain to think of things for Christmas.

But, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. My wife and I are very frugal and NOT trendy. We don't own fitbits and new google box thingies, etc. , and don't consume expensive Startbucs coffee, etc. She sees that, she sees us in a store look at stuff and say "nope, not worth the money".
 
The stdev is around 200k, but as one would expect, the distribution is skewed to the left; ie ~75% of the probability mass is below ~300k.

JHW said:
what's the standard deviation on that mean ?
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Wow, I finally read the results and for the first time in my life I'm below average in every category. This really isn't Lake Wobegon.
 
cgrab said:
Wow, I finally read the results and for the first time in my life I'm below average in every category. This really isn't Lake Wobegon.
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Whenever you get disheartened with your financial status, just remember this: John D. Rockefeller's max net worth in today's dollars has been estimated at 340 billion. If he were alive today, that would be 7 million pounds of 100 dollar bills, assuming 20.4 lbs per million (I certainly hope my math isn't off...it looks like too much to be true).

What's that...14 Antonov 225's filled up, with only enough fuel to move it within a state?
 
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