Inadverdent spin entry..........

Vf6cruiser

Vf6cruiser

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Vf6cruiser
This bit of information saved my life back in 1969 when I had about 15 hours and was out practicing steep turns and departure stalls. The week before I had read an article by a Doctor in Flying mag how some CFI had told him if he ever entered a spin and didn't know what to do (yep that was me) just pull the power to idle and let go of the yoke. The plane will fly itself out (given enough room). This is so counter intuitive that it seemed crazy to me when I did it. But when the ground is spinning just like in the war movies, you're at full power, and you're looking straight down into a patch of desert just outside the Palm Springs city limits you will do it. I ended up in this spin after a botched departure stall when I tried to go back to climb attitude too soon. That 152 aileron stalled and flipped over in the blink of an eye, one minute you're looking out over the nose and the next second the nose is pointed straight down. Fortunately I had taken the bird up to 3,500ft AGL for my maneuvering practice and I suggest you do the same or higher.

I came out the bottom of my several turn spin at VNE of 175 knots......and about 700ft of room before I turned into a smoking crater. If you've ever wondered how tough 152's are, wonder no more.......they can take a lot. I have no clue why the wings didn't rip off. My buddy was watching me over at the airport and thought I was putting on a little airshow for fun.......lol.....yep that's what it was.

Everybody feel free to weigh in and tell us all the better ways to handle spins, which would be to actually apply opposite rudder etc and a gentle recovery, I can agree with that. A couple hours of spin training etc....I agree with all that.......but I was just a green low time rookie who hadn't gotten far enough to ask about spins with the CFI yet.........if this by any chance saves somebody then it was worth the time to type it up. To that nameless Doctor in 1969 you and the good Lord certainly saved me to live and fly another day.
 
Well, simply letting go of the yoke/stick in some airplanes won't work unless you're also actively doing something to oppose the yaw (rudder use). Otherwise, the relative wind on the airplane (from below) during a spin can hold the elevator in an aft position. Pulling power and simply letting go of the stick/yoke is not a recognized spin recovery technique.

GA spin training involves only one spin recovery procedure (PARE). Power off, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite, and Elevator forward (to a degree). That works in most airplane that will recover from a normal spin. Unfortunately, it also requires situational awareness.

In the aerobatic world, there are a couple of emergency recovery options that work in most aerobatic airplanes, but should not be relied upon unless tested in any particular make/model across the entire matrix of spin types. "Emergency" spin recovery technique differs from PARE in that the emergency technique is designed to minimize (or eliminate entirely) the need for the pilot to recognize exactly what is happening and maintain situational awareness. The aerobatic pilot who finds him/herself in an accidental inverted spin for the first time on their own may not know whether the spin is upright, inverted, left, right, how they got there, or exactly what to do. You do not want your first inverted flat spin to be on your own. Folks have done this attempting hammerheads for the first time on their own in certain airplanes.

One emergency recovery technique is to pull power, apply opposite rudder, and let go of the stick. If you watched the stick, it would stay aft on its own for a couple of seconds before popping forward on its down as the spin stops. This is known as the 'Beggs-Muller' technique. It works whether you're upright or inverted, but does require you to push the correct rudder. There are certain airplanes in certain spin modes for which this method does not work, and require active elevator movement to break the stall.

The other emergency technique is to pull power, put your eyeballs INSIDE the cockpit, and visually neutralize all controls (ailerons, elevator, and rudder) and wait for the airspeed to increase, which means the airplane is flying again. This works in most aerobatic airplanes as well.

Of course, your best bet is to obtain quality spin training in a suitable airplane. But aerobatics or not, in most airplanes there's little that cannot be quickly recovered by pulling power and neutralizing everything as soon as the airplane departs or otherwise does something you did not expect. A spin will only develop if you do nothing and sit there and watch it happen...or sit there not knowing what the heck is happening or what to do. Actual spin training will make your spin awareness much more acute than spin prevention training alone will. It will also ingrain some muscle memory that you will instinctively revert back to should you ever find yourself in an accidental spin.
 
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whifferdill said:
GA spin training involves only one spin recovery procedure (PARE) Power off, ailerons neutral, rudder opposite, and elevator forward (to a degree). That works in any airplane that will recover from a spin. Unfortunately, it also requires situational awareness.
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Change that to "any production-certified light single engine airplane during an incipient spin" and I'll buy it. I've flown a few airplanes where that most assuredly won't work, although they are not production-certified light single engine airplanes. And I know of at least one production-certified light single engine airplane (not spin certified, but still recoverable if you do it right) where if you let the spin fully develop, PARE won't get you out of it. In addition, the Grumman AA-5-series books tell you to leave the elevator back during the application of rudder to stop the yaw so you don't blank as much of the rudder.

All things considered, it's best to use PARE only when you don't know the correct procedure for the plane you're flying -- and then still make sure you do know the correct procedure for anything you intend to fly.
 
Ron Levy said:
Change that to "any production-certified light single engine airplane during an incipient spin" and I'll buy it. I've flown a few airplanes where that most assuredly won't work, although they are not production-certified light single engine airplanes. And I know of at least one production-certified light single engine airplane (not spin certified, but still recoverable if you do it right) where if you let the spin fully develop, PARE won't get you out of it. In addition, the Grumman AA-5-series books tell you to leave the elevator back during the application of rudder to stop the yaw so you don't blank as much of the rudder.

All things considered, it's best to use PARE only when you don't know the correct procedure for the plane you're flying -- and then still make sure you do know the correct procedure for anything you intend to fly.
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Before you posted, I edited to say "normal" spin. And I should have originally stated "most" airplanes will recover... I understand your points and don't disagree. When I say "normal" spin, I'm referring to an airplane with "normal" spin characterstics that does not transition into a different mode once fully-developed. There's an Experimental airplane called the Tipsy Nipper that can go flat on its own with power off, and will only recover with in-spin aileron applied. Clearly PARE does not work there. That is neither a normal spin characteristic, nor what I'd consider a "normal" spin mode.

The POH information always rules, and for airplanes that were not fully spin tested, or are without a knowledge base with spins, you're on your own.
 
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Ron Levy said:
And I know of at least one production-certified light single engine airplane (not spin certified, but still recoverable if you do it right) where if you let the spin fully develop, PARE won't get you out of it.
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Is the Mooney recoverable if you let the spin fully develop? I've heard not.
 
"Pulling power and simply letting go of the stick/yoke is not a recognized spin recovery technique."

Neither is leaving full power in and screaming while you pull the stick all the way back in a death grip all the way to impact.

Your choice..................
 
At VNE of 175 knots and pulled out at 700 ft.? VNE in a 152 isn't 175 and at 175 and 700 ft. you're not going to avoid making a smoking crater. Just a guess but I don't think a 152 would attain 175 knots in a vertical dive.
Good discussion on spin recoveries though.
 
Vf6cruiser said:
"Pulling power and simply letting go of the stick/yoke is not a recognized spin recovery technique."

Neither is leaving full power in and screaming while you pull the stick all the way back in a death grip all the way to impact.

Your choice..................
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Interesting anecdote you posted, but your post seemed to suggest that pilots keep in the back of their minds this emergency spin recovery "technique" that you read about in a 45 year old article that was written before emergency spin recovery techniques were widely understood or accepted. In that case, I would suggest discarding this "technique" in favor of something that is more likely to successfully recover an accidental spin in most airplanes. That is pulling power and actively neutralizing all controls...and waiting. If an untrained pilot can be expected to remember to pull power and let go, I think there's just as good of a chance they'll remember to pull power and actively neutralize all controls. My real choice would be to obtain spin training.

But hey, if you've tried everything you can think of and you're still spinning, then by all means let go of everything and pray. I'm simply saying that this would not be my first choice when attempting to recover an accidental spin before hitting the ground. Yes, I've heard the stories of WWI-era pilots unable to recover a spin, and bailing out only to see that their airplane had recovered from the spin once they let go and left the airplane.
 
whifferdill said:
I've heard the stories of WWI-era pilots unable to recover a spin, and bailing out only to see that their airplane had recovered from the spin once they let go and left the airplane.
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Yes, moving the CG forward makes a difference. Are you suggesting that a pilot should undo the seat belt and climb up on the glare shield to move the CG forward?







































;)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Yes, moving the CG forward makes a difference. Are you suggesting that a pilot should undo the seat belt and climb up on the glare shield to move the CG forward?;)
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Hmm, I guess it comes down to whether you're more comfortable with wing walking or sky diving. :D If it ain't wing walking, I suggest wearing a chute.
 
Vf6cruiser said:
I came out the bottom of my several turn spin at VNE of 175 knots......and about 700ft of room before I turned into a smoking crater.
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A spin is a stall. If your recovery was that fast, you weren't in a spin, but a spiral dive.
 
kgruber said:
A spin is a stall. If your recovery was that fast, you weren't in a spin, but a spiral dive.
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I'm thinking it was a spiral not a spin if ONLY because of the speeds mentioned.
 
kgruber said:
A spin is a stall. If your recovery was that fast, you weren't in a spin, but a spiral dive.
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Yep...

In a spin, you don't pick up much airspeed at all. You'll stabilize at some low airspeed.

Some aircraft will pop out of the spin on their own if you don't hold enough pro-spin controls during your spin. The obvious sign that you have left a spin and are now in a spiral dive, is increasing airspeed and G forces.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Yes, moving the CG forward makes a difference. Are you suggesting that a pilot should undo the seat belt and climb up on the glare shield to move the CG forward?
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Yes, or get out and lean on the canard!

To move the center of gravity forward, Pascarell, wearing a parachute, unstrapped and slid as far under the instrument panel as possible. No luck. He tried to rock the nose up and down by using coordinated power and elevator. It didn't work. The altitude was now 6,500 feet. "I might have to leave the airplane," he told Moser. Below, a boy on the beach noticed an aircraft dropping straight down as though suspended from a parachute.
Oscillating the aircraft with coordinated rudder and aileron, he was able to achieve a 30- to 45-degree bank and a 20- to 30-degree nose-low attitude. Progress? The airspeed indicator showed 20 to 30 knots, and the descent rate increased to 2,500 fpm; but several coordinated 360-degree turns later it was clear that the new method was useless. Controls were reversed and the aircraft returned to an apparently benign, 1,500-fpm, zero-airspeed descent. The altitude was 5,500 feet. There was one last trick to try. It was time for an out-of-cockpit experience.
Pascarell opened the side-latched canopy and stood with one foot on the wing, the other on the seat. The relative wind was unnoticeable. While stretched precariously over the airframe, watching the horizon for some sign of nose-down pitch, he grasped the left canard with both hands, in order to move the CG forward an inch or two, and waited nearly 30 seconds. No luck. He decided to ride it down. After all, it appeared to Pascarell to be a slow descent rate.
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http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/1996/June/1/Pilots-(6).aspx
 
Skylane81E said:
Makes me itch to go do some spins
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Agree. I just did spins in the Champ at Red Stewart last weekend, and I'm mad that the freezing rain is gonna cancel my fun this weekend.

Tiffany said you were working on 107CL. Is it gonna be ready for rental anytime soon? I'm curious how it spins. :) The aircraft is certified for intentional spins, but do you guys let people do so? I'd be interested in that w/ a CFI sometime.
 
LOL.......well this brings out all the experts fer sure........I just googled VNE on the 152 and Mr. Google shows 149 knots for VNE, all I know is I was staring at the airspeed when I came out and I was at the top of the red and I remember seeing 175.........I was spinning like a top at the first entry......the plane came out the bottom in a big swooping arc but fairly gentle on the G forces..........roughly 700-800ft left to go.......I did go into the "slow motion" of tachyphasia when I essentially re-read that flying article in my mind and pulled the power........it took everything I had to let go of the yoke, my mind was screaming for some kind of control input.............

I think all the comments are good and obviously there are better ways to go, but a newbie pilot with low hours is really miles away from spin training.......and I think the average CFI who just decides to do an impromptu spin or two with a new student will find himself in the welfare line fairly quickly. Anybody that wants to double check me, feel free to take your 152 up a ways and do about ten turns and report back.......lol.....
 
Bill Jennings said:
Is the Mooney recoverable if you let the spin fully develop? I've heard not.
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It is Bill. Power off, elevator neutral, opposite rudder.
If you get #3 and #2 reversed, you end up in an inverted spin, Don't do THAT.

I started at 10,000 with a DPE in the right seat who was briefing me, and recovered at 6,700. It was memorable.
 
bbchien said:
Power off, elevator neutral, opposite rudder.
If you get #3 and #2 reversed, you end up in an inverted spin, Don't do THAT.
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I'm curious about this since I've never spun a Mooney, and probably never will. Do you mean that rudder should not be applied before the elevator input? Interesting if that's the case. This will typically accelerate a spin, and in many airplanes this accelerated spin mode will stop very quickly as soon as opposite rudder is applied. In others, moving the elevator too far off the aft stop before applying opposite rudder can blank the rudder until you get the elevator further back aft, delaying or preventing recovery.

How would the Mooney end up in an inverted spin with neutral elevator, regardless of what you did with the rudder? In my experience, inverted spins require full (or nearly full) forward elevator deflection, just like upright spins typically require full or nearly full aft elevator. Anyone ever actually spin a Mooney inverted? Should be very peaceful given the engine will be dead. :)
 
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Vf6cruiser said:
"Pulling power and simply letting go of the stick/yoke is not a recognized spin recovery technique."

Neither is leaving full power in and screaming while you pull the stick all the way back in a death grip all the way to impact.
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There are other choices between those two, most especially knowing the book procedure for the plane you're flying and using it.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Yes, moving the CG forward makes a difference. Are you suggesting that a pilot should undo the seat belt and climb up on the glare shield to move the CG forward?
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If you're in a Piper Tomahawk and all else has failed, yes, I'd suggest trying that -- we know it's worked at least once when nothing else had.
 
Vf6cruiser said:
LOL.......well this brings out all the experts fer sure........I just googled VNE on the 152 and Mr. Google shows 149 knots for VNE, all I know is I was staring at the airspeed when I came out and I was at the top of the red and I remember seeing 175.........I was spinning like a top at the first entry......the plane came out the bottom in a big swooping arc but fairly gentle on the G forces..........roughly 700-800ft left to go.......I did go into the "slow motion" of tachyphasia when I essentially re-read that flying article in my mind and pulled the power........it took everything I had to let go of the yoke, my mind was screaming for some kind of control input.............

I think all the comments are good and obviously there are better ways to go, but a newbie pilot with low hours is really miles away from spin training.......and I think the average CFI who just decides to do an impromptu spin or two with a new student will find himself in the welfare line fairly quickly. Anybody that wants to double check me, feel free to take your 152 up a ways and do about ten turns and report back.......lol.....
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In 1969 it was a 150 with a Vne of 141 knots. A 150 won't do 175 knots, ever. What ever you did in 1969 with 15 hours under your belt scared you but the story you tell comes from that scare and embellished over the next 43 years.
 
Skylane81E said:
Makes me itch to go do some spins
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Just the other day I was thinking how long it had been since my last spin. Barely an hour after my thought, a student's power-on stall went awry in a C150 and I got to recover from a 2 turn spin. Figures :D.
 
Vf6cruiser said:
I came out the bottom of my several turn spin at VNE of 175 knots......
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Yep...+1 to what others have said. You were not in a spin. A spin in a stalling maneuver, the airspeed is stabilized and low. You either were in a spiraling dive or when the spin stopped you let it point straight down for quite a long while.
 
"In 1969 it was a 150 with a Vne of 141 knots. A 150 won't do 175 knots, ever. What ever you did in 1969 with 15 hours under your belt scared you but the story you tell comes from that scare and embellished over the next 43 years."

No embellishing...........and whats 30 knots amongst friends.........lol........what all the experts aren't factoring in is FULL POWER was left on for several seconds pointing STRAIGHT DOWN.............do that on your next spin and let me know if it changes anything. I most certainly did spiral out at the bottom which I mentioned in the first post, and this was without any correction until I swooped out at the bottom.......was pretty much a spectator for most of the spin.............you have no idea what a real surprise is until you do one of these............
 
Vf6cruiser said:
This bit of information saved my life back in 1969 when I had about 15 hours and was out practicing steep turns and departure stalls.
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The biggest factor there, I think, was being out solo, doing departure stalls, without any spin recovery training.

Dan
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
FWIW...
Used to be you did spins as a student. Looking at the logbook, I did them during the tenth hour of dual - left and right. :dunno:
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I think some spin training and awareness should be re-introduced to the PPL standard training. I don't know what the point of recovering to a specific heading was supposed to accomplish in the old requriements, but getting more students to experience fully developed spins (wow, I didn't vomit or die!) and execute the PARE (or aircraft specific) recovery (heh, that was easy!) is valuable.
 
Vf6cruiser said:
what all the experts aren't factoring in is FULL POWER was left on for several seconds pointing STRAIGHT DOWN.............do that on your next spin and let me know if it changes anything.
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You seem to think that nobody here has significant experience doing spins. Judging from your comments, I assume your own spin experience is limited. Let me ask you this - which direction were you spinning? Left vs. right has a lot to do with how power will affect the spin. It will not necessarily cause airspeed to increase during a spin. Were you holding the elevator all the way back through this whole episode? If not, then you were likely in a spiral. What were you doing with the rudder? What about the ailerons? How exactly did you enter this spin/spiral? If you can't remember any of this, then there's no reason for you to continue arguing about any of the facts related to your story, which is just that. I'm glad you posted - it has sparked good discussion.
 
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Vf6cruiser said:
.what all the experts aren't factoring in is FULL POWER was left on for several seconds pointing STRAIGHT DOWN.............do that on your next spin and let me know if it changes anything.
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You were probably spinning to the left. Full power will raise the nose if you were in an actual spin (dependent on actual control input). Using power is part of doing flat spins and is done all the time. The airplane is still stalled, the airspeed is still stable....and could be reading even less in a flat spin with the power on.
 
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Mike, I am working on 7CL but I don't know when/if it will be back on the line.

And yes, folks would spin it, apparently quite well.
 
darthnomster said:
I think some spin training and awareness should be re-introduced to the PPL standard training.
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There's supposed to be a good bit of spin awareness training required by Part 61 today even pre-solo, and that's specifically tasked in the Sport/Rec/Pvt PTS's for Airplane category. The problem with requiring spin recovery training is that too many of the most common primary trainers today aren't spin-certified, and it's rather a burden on flight schools to make them buy another airplane of a different type just to do spin recovery training. The industry-wide hatred of the complex airplane requirement for CP/CFI is another example of that issue -- so many flight schools have to own and maintain a ratty old 172RG/Arrow/Sierra that doesn't pay it's own freight just to be able to train for those certificates.

I don't know what the point of recovering to a specific heading was supposed to accomplish in the old requirements, but getting more students to experience fully developed spins (wow, I didn't vomit or die!) and execute the PARE (or aircraft specific) recovery (heh, that was easy!) is valuable.
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I don't know, either. When I did my CFI training in a PA28-140 in 1973, the hardest part was keeping it in a spin through three full turns, and not letting it drop out into a diving spiral before reaching the 1080th degree of turn (+/- 10). Not exactly what we really want to teach people about spins.
 
Ron Levy said:
The problem with requiring spin recovery training is that too many of the most common primary trainers today aren't spin-certified, and it's rather a burden on flight schools to make them buy another airplane of a different type just to do spin recovery training.
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Another problem with across the board spin training is lack of instructors who are truly competent teaching and recovering all the ways students can creatively botch spins. A typical spin endorsement doesn't come close to cutting it, so it would be trial by fire and hope the low-time CFI doesn't get killed with a student until they get more experience. Specialized aerobatic spin instructors do this all the time, and have an excellent safety record, but there are also not enough of them to go around to mandate spin training.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Yes, moving the CG forward makes a difference. Are you suggesting that a pilot should undo the seat belt and climb up on the glare shield to move the CG forward?
;)
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Col. Tom Lowry who did some test flghts in the Tomahawk told me he did exactly that over the chesapeak bay many years ago.

As for the 175 Kts, could the ASI have been in MPH?
 
Mission accomplished. This thread is for all the new pilots that are probably too terrified to comment. Read the book before a spin hits you, the C-150 manual has a nice section on spins that I either didn't read or glossed over when I started. Show some respect for the departure stalls and keep the ball centered.
 
Vf6cruiser said:
Mission accomplished. This thread is for all the new pilots that are probably too terrified to comment. Read the book before a spin hits you, the C-150 manual has a nice section on spins that I either didn't read or glossed over when I started. Show some respect for the departure stalls and keep the ball centered.
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There's a POH supplement for the 150/152 regarding spins and all pilots of those things should have it. After two or three turns, they can flatten out and be very reluctant to recover. The supplement calls for opposite rudder and full, abrupt full-down elevator if it reaches that point. Got to get brutal with it.

Dan
 
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