Inadverdent spin entry..........

Dan Thomas said:
There's a POH supplement for the 150/152 regarding spins and all pilots of those things should have it. After two or three turns, they can flatten out and be very reluctant to recover. The supplement calls for opposite rudder and full, abrupt full-down elevator if it reaches that point. Got to get brutal with it.
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There's also an AD about spins for the C-150/152's. Make sure you know if your 150/152 has it done before you intentionally spin it. Note also that this AD has been revised twice after initial issuance. See AD 2009-10-09 R2 for details.
 
RoscoeT said:
Hadn't heard that before. Maybe that's why full in-spin aileron is applied here to keep the spin from going flat.
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"Ailerons full with the spin" was part of the F-4 spin recovery procedure -- the adverse yaw from the ailerons helped stop the rotation.

That was also determined experimentally to work if an AA-1 Yankee spin fully develops and rudder alone doesn't stop the rotation. That particular pilot lost 11,000 feet to enter the spin, let it fully develop through three turns, try the book procedure, start working on ways to make the rotation stop when the book procedure didn't, discover the one that did work, recover, and level off. For that reason, I suggest leaving such test flying to the professionals (like the USNTPS graduate involved in this event). Don't try spinning any plane which isn't appropriately certified, and in which you haven't received appropriate spin entry/recovery training -- and even then start with as much space between you and the ground as feasible.
 
Vf6cruiser said:
Neither is leaving full power in and screaming while you pull the stick all the way back in a death grip all the way to impact.
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But, but, in some recent threads I've heard at least a couple of people claim that Colgan 3407 could have happened to any of us if we had been flying!
 
Dan Thomas said:
There's a POH supplement for the 150/152 regarding spins and all pilots of those things should have it. After two or three turns, they can flatten out and be very reluctant to recover. The supplement calls for opposite rudder and full, abrupt full-down elevator if it reaches that point. Got to get brutal with it.

Dan
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Did not know that. Been spinning 150s and 152s since 1961. Probably 5 to 10,000 times.
They always seemed docile, responsive, and behaving in textbook fashion.
 
whifferdill said:
How would the Mooney end up in an inverted spin with neutral elevator, regardless of what you did with the rudder? In my experience, inverted spins require full (or nearly full) forward elevator deflection, just like upright spins typically require full or nearly full aft elevator. Anyone ever actually spin a Mooney inverted? Should be very peaceful given the engine will be dead. :)
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Dead on comments. Of course to get into the spin you have to stall, so the elevator is "up". If you are late in letting go of the elevator the thing will go over the top on it's back, the two times of five that my DPE-CFI wanted to make the point, it went over right wing first over the top on its back.

Think, "half Snap".

Of course in 2000 hours in the thing I didn't ever do that again....
ONCE it goes over, it is peaceful- to get out, you just have to remember which way the spin began....
 
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Dan Thomas said:
There's a POH supplement for the 150/152 regarding spins and all pilots of those things should have it. After two or three turns, they can flatten out and be very reluctant to recover. The supplement calls for opposite rudder and full, abrupt full-down elevator if it reaches that point. Got to get brutal with it.
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If I recall correctly, the guy who set the record for number of turns in a 150 said the engine quits at turn 12. Fuel can't get inboard to the engine anymore. He never mentioned anything about brutal. Abrupt means quick, but brutal has "bang it against the stops until they crack" feel to it that just isn't necessary. Poor word. Smooth and quick is fine.


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denverpilot said:
If I recall correctly, the guy who set the record for number of turns in a 150 said the engine quits at turn 12. Fuel can't get inboard to the engine anymore. He never mentioned anything about brutal. Abrupt means quick, but brutal has "bang it against the stops until they crack" feel to it that just isn't necessary. Poor word. Smooth and quick is fine.


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Yeah. Agreed. Poor choice of words.

Dan
 
Whoever said 175mph I think is right on ............the older birds do have some ASI in mph which is obvious, in any case it was fast enough to smart a little pranging through the cactus. Nice U tube on the 60 turn spin...........I was drawn to one of the comments that seem to apply..........

Propsink4 years agoin reply to Mrmaxavi

I did three different recoveries in the Citabria from two-turn incipient spins. First the standard opposite rudder to the stop and gently forward to break the stall. Second, hold all controls neutral. Third, let everything go. Recovery was progressively slower with each method but all stopped the spinning and the stall.

A Citabria and not a 150 but interesting nonetheless. This reminds me very much of oil and tire threads on the motorcycle boards...........lol.........but all good info and potentially life saving here............great comments............
 
How do you get a two turn *incipient* spin? By two turns it's spinning. Might be lazy and not flattened much yet in some aircraft, but at two turns it ain't "incipient" anymore.
 
denverpilot said:
How do you get a two turn *incipient* spin? By two turns it's spinning. Might be lazy and not flattened much yet in some aircraft, but at two turns it ain't "incipient" anymore.
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I think it's an unimportant distinction, but some airplanes do take 2-3 turns to become fully developed. All "fully developed" means is that the trajectory of the airplane has become fully vertical, and the spin rate and attitude have stabilized. In most airplanes that are commonly spun, a "fully-developed" spin recovers pretty much the same as for the "incipient" phase. If they recovered at 1-3/4 turn so that 2 precise rotations were done, then it likely would have still been in the "incipient" phase. Most airplanes I've spun feel fully developed after 2 turns. Unless an airplane develops negative characteristics during the developed phase, incipient vs. fully developed is fairly irrelevant.
 
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bbchien said:
Dead on comments. Of course to get into the spin you have to stall, so the elevator is "up". If you are late in letting go of the elevator the thing will go over the top on it's back, the two times of five that my DPE-CFI wanted to make the point, it went over right wing first over the top on its back.

Think, "half Snap".
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I gotcha. I thought you were referring to an actual inverted (negative G) spin. Yes, you'll pass through a fairly inverted attitude after a 1/2 turn of an upright spin. The faster it whips over, the more of an inverted attitude you'll momentarily pass through.
 
whifferdill said:
I think it's an unimportant distinction, but some airplanes do take 2-3 turns to become fully developed. All "fully developed" means is that the trajectory of the airplane has become fully vertical, and the spin rate and attitude have stabilized. In most airplanes that are commonly spun, a "fully-developed" spin recovers pretty much the same as for the "incipient" phase. If they recovered at 1-3/4 turn so that 2 precise rotations were done, then it likely would have still been in the "incipient" phase. Most airplanes I've spun feel fully developed after 2 turns. Unless an airplane develops negative characteristics during the developed phase, incipient vs. fully developed is fairly irrelevant.
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That's pretty much what I was thinking but decided to phrase it as a question to see if the person who said it, had any clue. Most of us aren't flying anything with a distinct noticeable difference between incipient and fully developed nor do most of us have the ability to discern it anyway. Especially since spin training is long dead for the majority of pilots.

I've only spun Skyhawks, but they seem to only feel "incipient" for about the first half turn. At two, anyone not used to doing them isn't usually going to feel as if it's "incipient" anymore, but yes they do keep accelerating and getting more vertical, just a bit, up to about three. After that it's certainly fully developed.

Someone telling a story of a spin they weren't prepared for and very little time spinning, saying two turns was still "incipient", raises red flags for me that their story is made up. Someone who's done it a lot, wouldn't bother making the distinction either, since it doesn't matter to the story.

So it was asked as a hint: What's wrong with this story?


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