IMC sans ATC
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Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
Yes, in Canada. Uncontrolled airspace. You take off and can then open your flight plan in the air. If you're going to enter controlled airspace, they'll give you a clearance as such. If not, they'll just say the flight plan is open and will then ask you to close it upon landing.
There's precious little uncontrolled airspace at legal instrument altitudes down in most the US. Further, if you take off into IMC without a clearance for the overlying controlled airspace in hand, there's some nasty legal opinions (and enforcement action) that you're being reckless.
kgruber
Final Approach
Yes. Many times. In England, sometimes it is the only way to get your clearance. Launch in class "G", call for clearance. Not many mountains there.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
It theoretically possible. I'm standing by for the stories of those that have actually done so. We discussed a scenario in class where the only way to execute a flight was to do so. I think my blood pressure went up during that discussion.
Anybody who departs from an airport that doesn't have a surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport (why was Control Zone such a bad term) has departed IFR into controlled airspace without a clearance. It's not possible to get one. However, as stated, it would behoove you to have be able to either maintain VFR or have a clearance for the controlled airspace that overlies it (C'Ron will be by shortly with the decision on that issue, I don't walk around with them in my head).
roncachamp
Final Approach
I've received clearances at these airports, I'm sure most IFR pilots have. I've issued thousands of them.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
"Launch into," no, since 90+% of any given IFR flight I will do will take place in controlled airspace, even if I depart or land at a Class G airport, so I need a clearance (which, yes, technically applies only to the controlled airspace portion).
"Fly in," yes. On otherwise VFR flights, I have popped into and out of the odd cloud while in Class G.
"Fly in," yes. On otherwise VFR flights, I have popped into and out of the odd cloud while in Class G.
Clark1961
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That's jus' Wyoming VMC!
Which gets me to the question of what does it really mean when ATC clears one for a visual approach in class G airspace?
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Bill Watson
En-Route
When it gets a bit low, I get a clearance via cell before departing my home 'port of 8NC8. The clearance includes something like "enter controlled airspace heading 270..."
I have a number for RDU approach which keeps it simple but I can call the nationwide 800 number who will coordinate with RDU as required to get the same thing.
Since I get ADSB weather as soon as I push out of the hangar, could the future include some kind of text clearance via some ADSB device? That would be cool.
I have a number for RDU approach which keeps it simple but I can call the nationwide 800 number who will coordinate with RDU as required to get the same thing.
Since I get ADSB weather as soon as I push out of the hangar, could the future include some kind of text clearance via some ADSB device? That would be cool.
poadeleted20
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Yes. The pilot's name was George Murphy, and he got three months on the ground for doing it.
http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3935.pdf
Sometimes it can be, but most of the time it won't be. If you do it out in the big brown areas out west, and stay below 14,500, you can do it legally, although there are still a lot of ways to break a regulation doing it (in particular, 91.175 if you find that at the 91.177-mininum legal altitude you aren't in VMC when you want to let down and land).
Brad Z
Final Approach
How will you ensure that you will not violate 14 CFR 91.111(a)?
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
What do you mean Clark?
The approach is typically not going to begin in Class G, to giving a clearance makes sense.
Or are you asking what applies since, once the aircraft enters Class G, it arguably can enter the clouds? I don't recall seeing a formal answer to that, probably because it happens so seldom. But since the issue would probably come up in a similar situation to Murphy (an enforcement action where they are out to getcha) my best guess is that 91.175(a) would apply and, unless you could in fact maintain visual approach conditions down to the MDA, you can't accept the visual from ATC.
Clark1961
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This question only there are no IAPs to the field available (obviously since it's all G). Since a clearance isn't required wouldn't the granting of a clearance be meaningless? Perhaps the best thing to do would be to cancel IFR and avoid any ATC input? In my case, I did cancel IFR because I knew I could finish the approach and it was convenient to cancel in the air rather than by phone on the ground. Did I enter a cloud? no, but it would have been convenient to do so. Instead I maneuvered hard to remain clear in one case and in another case I flew several miles out of my way to avoid any chance of being near the clouds.
Maybe I just fly to Wyoming too much - just don't bump into anything and all other sins appear to be forgiven.
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poadeleted20
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Lots of airports without Class G to the surface have IAP's. In fact, probably most airports with IAP's are located immediately under Class G airspace, while controlled airspace to the surface is probably the minority case.
No. The IFR clearance allows the departing aircraft to enter the overlying controlled airspace, and the arriving aircraft to continue the approach to landing, with assurance of separation from all other aircraft not in VMC. That's the important issue which drove the findings in the Murphy case linked above.
unfortunately, you have to be in VMC to do that, and even then, you could end up with a disaster like this one.
Probably illegal, too. You must be in VMC to cancel IFR on an instrument approach, and once you do, you must remain in VMC. There's an AOPA Pilot Counsel article from a few years back about a pilot who was burned for fouling that up.
That said, if you're in one of those big brown areas out west, the question is irrelevant -- no IAP's (so you must be in VMC before you leave the 91.177-minimum IFR altitude) and no ATC clearance available for approach or departure. In those areas, you're on your own -- entirely.
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Clark1961
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Reading skills are as important as book knowledge Ron. I clearly typed "all G." Maybe you missed it in your rush to demonstrate your "superior" knowledge?
roncachamp
Final Approach
An IFR clearance for a flight that never enters controlled airspace is not available.
But illegal.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Hard to achieve the latter without the former.
poadeleted20
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I agree., and if you read my response carefully, you would have seen the answer varies with the nature of the G-space, so there is no answer that applies to "all G". Maybe you missed that in your rush to insult me.
mswmsw
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mswmsw
Very technically (and narrowly), the answer to your question is "Yes, it's legal." BUT, the real answer - as we can see from reading the NTSB case that Cap'n Ron cites - is more probably, "It depends". That NTSB case makes it kinda fuzzy, doesn't it? And if the FAA really wants to get you on a Careless and Reckless, they can probably make a case of it. But the thing is, by definition, you can not be "on" an IFR clearance in uncontrolled (Class G) airspace...... because it is uncontrolled. And many of us often fly in IMC in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance. Consider the following, fairly common, scenario:
IFR weather at an uncontrolled airport, no surface Class E, but Class G above us up to 700' or 1200' AGL. We contact ATC on the ground . (Way easier today with cell phones! Some of us can remember getting the clearance from a pay phone then running out to the airplane to start up and take off before our void time was up!). ATC gives us our void time and clearance. Haven't don't it in awhile, but my recollection is that the clearance is typically (always?) prefaced with the terminology "upon reaching controlled airspace......." followed by the actual clearance. Then we line up on the runway, and launch into IMC conditions, from this uncontrolled airport, where we are flying in IMC conditions, in uncontrolled airspace, without a clearance, until we reach controlled airspace 700 or 1200' above us. That's where the clearance becomes "effective". Until then, we are flying in IMC without a clearance.
Any Alaska IFR pilots reading this thread? I'd like to hear from them. Lots of uncontrolled airspace there, I'd be curious what they have to say on this topic.
roncachamp
Final Approach
You're flying with the IFR clearance you just received. You'd be flying in IMC without an IFR clearance only if you entered IMC before receiving the clearance. If you hadn't received it you would have to level off below the Class E floor, in violation of FAR 91.177 and probably FAR 91.179 as well.
Captain
Final Approach
Okay, I just read 91.177 and 91.179. They don't seem to prohibit the proposed operation. Here's the setup in my mind;
Out west. The class E starts at 14,500 and my city pairs (KABC and KXYZ) are both airports with no IAPs. The MOCA is 7,000'. It's 2SM vis at both airports and cloudy all the way up. Solid IMC. My route is easterly and I'm navigating using GPS. My cruise altitude is 9,000 feet.
The plan is to get in the plane and launch without ever talking to ATC. Ill shoot a contact approach with the 2SM vis at the destination cause I'm that familiar.
Being above the MOCA and using GPS satisfies 91.177 and going east at an odd altitude satisfies 91.179, no?
Out west. The class E starts at 14,500 and my city pairs (KABC and KXYZ) are both airports with no IAPs. The MOCA is 7,000'. It's 2SM vis at both airports and cloudy all the way up. Solid IMC. My route is easterly and I'm navigating using GPS. My cruise altitude is 9,000 feet.
The plan is to get in the plane and launch without ever talking to ATC. Ill shoot a contact approach with the 2SM vis at the destination cause I'm that familiar.
Being above the MOCA and using GPS satisfies 91.177 and going east at an odd altitude satisfies 91.179, no?
roncachamp
Final Approach
A contact approach is not available at your destination.
mswmsw
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mswmsw
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but...... The IFR clearance you received on the ground in the scenario I described is not effective until you enter the controlled airspace, "above you". It can't be.... ATC cannot provide IFR services for flight in uncontrolled airspace.... so they cannot issue you a clearance to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace. Hence, in the scenario I described - which I think many of us have done at some point in our flying careers - you are flying in IMC, without a clearance, until you enter that controlled airspace at 700' or 1200' AGL.
I could not find too much on this topic in the literature, but for those that are interested, take a look at the AIM, Chapter 3, Section 3-2-1(a) and Section 3-3-1, 3-3-2, and 3-3-3. There's also a short discussion of this topic on page 7 of "Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot" (my copy is the 6th edition). Interestingly neither of my copies (one is dated 1980 and the other is dated 2001) of the FAA IFH talk much about this.
Any controllers on here? If so, here's a question for you guys: "Can you issue a clearance to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace?"
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Roncachamp is a controller.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Solely in uncontrolled airspace? No. But it's pretty hard to operate in IMC in Class G airspace where Class E airspace begins at 700' or 1200' AGL without an IFR clearance. And they're pretty effective there too, as nobody can legally operate in that Class G airspace without one and only one will be issued at a time.
roncachamp
Final Approach
He was, but several months ago he was told to leave and never come back.
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Velocity173
Your question has been covered before here:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60569&highlight=uncontrolled+airport+IFR
Clark1961
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If pointing out your egoism is an insult then so be it.
Clark1961
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Nobody said anything about never entering controlled airspace. Now the real question is why you postulate that it would be illegal to enter a cloud in class G airspace after canceling an IFR clearance. I believe that you haven't considered the actual situation and have merely jumped to a conclusion.
roncachamp
Final Approach
You wrote, "This question only there are no IAPs to the field available (obviously since it's all G)." If the flight enters controlled airspace it's not "all G".
You can't enter a cloud under VFR, even in Class G airspace. IFR operation requires adherence to applicable IFR regulations such as 91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations.
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Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm sorry to hear about that.
roncachamp
Final Approach
It was inevitable.
Captain
Final Approach
poadeleted20
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Since you're not in controlled airspace, there's no airway, and hence no published MOCA. Best you can do is pull out the sectional and find a cruise altitude which meets both 91.177 and 91.179.
Contact approaches are not legal when there is no published approach for the airport, so that's out. Best you can do is have weather allowing you to descend under IFR from your cruise altitude and be in VMC (i.e., 1 mile vis and clear of clouds since it's G-space) by the time you reach the 91.177 minimum altitude in the destination airport area, and then descend under VFR.
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John Collins
En-Route
Although a clearance doesn't apply to operation within class G airspace, IFR operations are required in class G airspace all the time at the airports where Class E starts at 700 AGL. Fortunately a clearance isn't required for IFR in class G. There is a distinction, however, between having an IFR clearance prior to departure into class G airspace verses launching into IMC in class G and then obtaining a clearance to enter class E. The former provides separation from other IFR aircraft while the latter does not.
roncachamp
Final Approach
He'll need to clear clouds by 500' below, 1,000' above, and 2,000' horizontally in that scenario, assuming daytime and less than 10,000' MSL. If he's at 10,000' MSL or higher he'll need 5 miles visibility and cloud clearance of 1,000' below, 1,000' feet, and 1 mile horizontally, the same as Class E airspace.