JB1842
En-Route
the papi was out at the time. it was only my second flight with this instructor.
I'm OK, but plane is broke.
- Thread starter JB1842
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the papi was out at the time. it was only my second flight with this instructor.
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
This is the most amazing story, and you are one lucky guy.
I would have bet $10,000 that it was not possible to shear the nosewheel off of a GA plane without damage to the prop, engine, and firewall.
Go buy a lottery ticket, cuz your luck is running strong!
JB1842
En-Route
This is the most amazing story, and you are one lucky guy.
I would have bet $10,000 that it was not possible to shear the nosewheel off of a GA plane without damage to the prop, engine, and firewall.
Go buy a lottery ticket, cuz your luck is running strong!
Thats exactly what my mechanic and the FBO mechanic said. I'm sure we'll re-hash this over and over at your HOPS party.
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Tony_Scarpelli
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That means that your instructor had his head up his ass.
He should have A) took you to a working papi B) been on his guard C) canceled the training. But he chose D) let inexperienced student crash the plane. Night flights are no joke and he didn't even bother to brief you to that fact. The point of night flights in training is to introduce you to the complexities and dangers of landing issues. Seems he ignored them or perhaps didn't understand them himself.
There is no excuse and yes **** happens but also neglect and stupidity happens and are you going to wait for it to happen again before you stop taking unnecessary risks with your life and your airplane.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Frankly I disagree with you. You have no way of knowing how the flight was briefed or what the instructor said. The plane crashed and **** happens, he could have just been inattentive for a moment. It was a bad mistake to make though and the instructor should hold responsibility as PIC during this incident.
Also it is very important to teach a student how to land at night without a glide slope.
bnt83
Final Approach
or without landing lights and/or without electrical power...
JB1842
En-Route
We did do landings without landing lights, and we did fly with the master off for a few miuntes to see what it was like.
Tom-D
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Viewing these pictures I see no earthly reason the lower strut didn't break off or bend.
I see a fresh break of the axle thru bolt, and a hit on the rim that should have caused it to shatter. Your one lucky dude that you did not end up on your back.
bnt83
Final Approach
+1 I would think the lower strut would bend like a motorcycle's would.
Tom-D
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I'm telling ya, they are tough little airplanes, never under estimate the crash survivability of a Cessna.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
My guess is the mount deformed and "took" the hit, I would bet against it being true
bnt83
Final Approach
There's a 177 in weeds at Y14, the whole fuselage is pankaked and the wing & center section ripped off from the cabin. When the nose hit the ground it tore the firewall out, still bolted to the engine mount.
everyone died in that one but I agree.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
That is a very good possibility.
If this had happened to a RV tri-gear, or a Grumman type, that hit would have torn the strut off the aircraft and dropped the prop on the runway and probably the aircraft would have flipped.
I've never seen a wheel take this hard of hit, with this little damage.
bnt83
Final Approach
If it had the cups that pass through the fork type axle, I'm guessing the fork would have given way with a subsequent prop strike.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
you must make a skid mark, not a smoking hole if you expect to live thru the accident.
bnt83
Final Approach
JoseCuervo
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steingar
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That CFI would be an ex-CFI if I have aught to say about it. Dude was sleeping at the stick, and should have seen it coming. Disgraceful is the only word that comes to mind.
Sorry, but I'd not be flying that thing without a very detailed examination of the firewall and engine mount, and I might think strongly about an engine rebuild. How much time on the engine? If it is a high time engine it might be the time. You need to tread carefully. You don't know how many demons you and your "CFI" created with that stunt. Those demons could wind up killing someone.
Sorry you had to experience this during your training, I know it sucks. The one good thing is you're a student pilot, so nobody is likely to give you any grief.
Sorry, but I'd not be flying that thing without a very detailed examination of the firewall and engine mount, and I might think strongly about an engine rebuild. How much time on the engine? If it is a high time engine it might be the time. You need to tread carefully. You don't know how many demons you and your "CFI" created with that stunt. Those demons could wind up killing someone.
Sorry you had to experience this during your training, I know it sucks. The one good thing is you're a student pilot, so nobody is likely to give you any grief.
JB1842
En-Route
I'm wondering what the breaking point of the bolt is and what type of force is needed to break it like that. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure that out. "1500 pound plane travelling at 60 MPH hits a runway........."
JB1842
En-Route
Engine only has 200 hours give or take.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
You had better have someone knowledgable look these things over, seriously. Preferably someone unconnected to your pathetic excuse of a CFI, who should be no longer working at your airport.
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dell30rb
Final Approach
Note that the airplane is being inspected by a mechanic. I assume that most mechanics are familiar with repairing nosewheel/firewall damage to 150's. Also the prop did not strike the ground, a big relief with a 200 smoh engine.
And keep your bi-curious feelings to yourself!
Skylane81E
Final Approach
I would guess no, when a bolt fails at a pre existing crack the crack is almost always visible as a darker area due to dirt intrusion and corrosion.
JB1842
En-Route
I plan on having my home field mechanic take a good look after the other repairs are done.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
IIRC that is a AN5 bolt, the shear strength is 5,750lbs
If I am wrong and it is an AN6 then bump that up to 8,280lbs
This is why I doubt the mount made it through unscathed.
JoseCuervo
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Damn sure is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking. The OP is sharing the experience he had, the process he is going thru (reporting, inspecting, repairing, replacing, etc) and providing tons of details.
The OP definitely seems to be making good use of the resources available and seems to have good grasp of the issue.
No idea why people feel compelled to second guess him and tell him what he should "damn sure" be doing without being close to the actual plane, while he is working with professionals that are actually, you know, touching the plane.
Shaking my damn head.....
To the OP, thanks for sharing the incident and your resolution as you go forward. Valuable information for all who spend more time reading than spouting off about what you "damn sure" better be doing.
The OP definitely seems to be making good use of the resources available and seems to have good grasp of the issue.
No idea why people feel compelled to second guess him and tell him what he should "damn sure" be doing without being close to the actual plane, while he is working with professionals that are actually, you know, touching the plane.
Shaking my damn head.....
To the OP, thanks for sharing the incident and your resolution as you go forward. Valuable information for all who spend more time reading than spouting off about what you "damn sure" better be doing.
bnt83
Final Approach
Take a look at this. It's often missed
§ 91.407 Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(a) No person may operate any aircraft that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—
(1) It has been approved for return to service by a person authorized under § 43.7 of this chapter; and
(2) The maintenance record entry required by § 43.9 or § 43.11, as applicable, of this chapter has been made.
(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.
(c) The aircraft does not have to be flown as required by paragraph (b) of this section if, prior to flight, ground tests, inspection, or both show conclusively that the maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration has not appreciably changed the flight characteristics or substantially affected the flight operation of the aircraft.
(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120-0005)
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Looking again, maybe it was,
If you have the bolt some hi res close ups of the break might be telling.
JB1842
En-Route
Yep. My main instructor already told me he would ferry it back to my home field for me. It also helps we share the same hangar.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Hard to tell, I will see if I can dig up a picture of a prev cracked part
No longer in my phone
No longer in my phone
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Skylane81E
Final Approach
Now that one kind of makes it look like it may have been failed before the hit, but I can't swear to that
Glad you guys and the plane is OK.. But......
It is hard to believe the firewall or mount didn't get tweaked...
You are one lucky dude..
alfadog
Final Approach
That is substantially the same criteria as a major repair or major alteration (337 territory). I imagine that, with what we know so far, this is a minor repair and the student pilot owner can fly it back himself. Not saying it is not a bad idea to have someone more experienced along.
bnt83
Final Approach
read it again,
maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight
There are many operators that require the 91.407 flight documented after a flight control R&R. This could be as simple as replacing an trim tab cable.
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ChrisK
En-Route
She flies fine. Taxiing may be an issue.