Illegal to back-taxi??!!

BillTIZ said:
That's a "Hobbiest's" web page, not the "official" airport page managed by the airport Managment. That information should be on the "official" page for transients to be able to find it.
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Or FAA shouldn't say airports can make up their own crap without adding it to the AFD.

Like I said to Wing and Rotor... The word is "stupid".

You want this information in ONE place. Not have non-locals wandering around the Internet looking for it, during pre-flight planning.

If it isn't in the AFD, I bet 99.99999% of non-locals will never know about it. And airport operators aren't stupid. They know this is where non-locals get information.

So if it's not in there or a reference to where to go get it, they're being flat-out negligent.
 
Captain said:
BTW...our little 'yeller' was a part 61 trained guy. See what I mean about standards???
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What's that got to do with anything? I trained under part 61 and have never yelled at anyone.
 
Palmpilot said:
What's that got to do with anything? I trained under part 61 and have never yelled at anyone.
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Exactly. And one of our local 141 schools routinely shoot long straight-ins, wrong direction long bases, and ATITAPA at X51. I emailed the owner and got an apology from her and promise to address it but I still see it.
 
bobmrg said:
There was a Bonanza-owning pattern policeman at a local uncontrolled field and his harassment of flight school students got an FAA ops inspector into the act. He pointed out to the loudmouth that the FCC specified the legal use for the Unicom frequency and that he was misusing the frequency. He's been a good little boy since then.

Bob Gardner
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Interesting story!
 
Jaybird180 said:
Yeah, he got pwnd
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Do guys ALWAYS have to make everything about winning and losing? :mad:

No, an attitude problem was pointed out to him, and I thought he was taking it pretty well, based on post #106.

And then came #128... :(
 
DavidWhite said:
I had a post typed up but I think I've decided that until I can grow up I am incapable of adding anything to an aviation board. See y'all whenever. Au revoir
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Wow. Last. Post. Evar?

Hope you ain't cutting off your nose and all that.
 
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I had a fella get on the radio and give me a bunch of crap as I was taking off one time.
I announced I was coming back to meet him and turned around.
When I stomped into the terminal building (red faced and hostile they told me later - they were all pretty quiet at that moment) it turned out my critic had decided it was supper time and gone home.

In this case, if I were to respond to to the 'assistant manager' it would be a letter from my attorney demanding a list of his personal assets for the anticipated suit.
 
Dr. O said:
In this case, if I were to respond to to the 'assistant manager' it would be a letter from my attorney demanding a list of his personal assets for the anticipated suit.
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Suit alledging what ?

A charge of 'having to listen to bad words' is probably not going to get far, even in Florida.
 
Life is way too short to choose to get angry at someone else's remarks across the frequency. I cannot imagine why I'd choose to let someone else ruin my perfectly good day. It's much simpler to simply choose to ignore them and, of course, it's always a choice. People often say "he made me so mad" but the real translation of that is "I chose to get mad because of what that person did."
 
DavidWhite said:
I have gotten immensely better over the last 12 months - perhaps todays grumpiness is related to my 13 hour work day.
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It appears you've already bailed form this thread, but I'll mention it anyway. The part of the brain (frontal lobe) that handles impulsivity is not fully developed until the ages of 23-25. Anybody younger than that is going to have difficulty (to varying degrees) with impulse control. You (David) seem to already be aware of this and that's about the best you can hope for at this stage.
 
darrell said:
It appears you've already bailed form this thread, but I'll mention it anyway. The part of the brain (frontal lobe) that handles impulsivity is not fully developed until the ages of 23-25. Anybody younger than that is going to have difficulty (to varying degrees) with impulse control. You (David) seem to already be aware of this and that's about the best you can hope for at this stage.
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http://www.hhs.gov/opa/familylife/t...olescent_brain/Development/prefrontal_cortex/

Good read for all ages, especially CFIs I imagine.
 
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alfadog said:
Younger guy, I think. Terry was his name. Like I said, I kept it friendly. Know him?
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Wasn't this Terry. :) I fly out of KHYS, Hays, Ks. and we back taxi all the time. Also, K94, La Crosse, and there you have to back taxi because there is no taxi way.

I don't back taxi if someone is coming in behind me, of course, but KHYS has a paved cross wind runway. On the CW/RWY you have to back taxi or use part of the north south runway.

Tell the guy to go get a real job.

Terry
 
FWIW on the back taxi "debate"....

Over here in SE Asia there are lots of airports that forbid 180 degree turns on the runway. Primary reason is the heavier the airplane the more chance of destroying the pavement.

Again, FWIW.
 
Terry said:
Wasn't this Terry. :) I fly out of KHYS, Hays, Ks. and we back taxi all the time. Also, K94, La Crosse, and there you have to back taxi because there is no taxi way.

I don't back taxi if someone is coming in behind me, of course, but KHYS has a paved cross wind runway. On the CW/RWY you have to back taxi or use part of the north south runway.

Tell the guy to go get a real job.

Terry
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He has one. Airport manager. He was just doing his job. Like I said, I kept it friendly because you never know when you might be eating your words.
 
docmirror said:
Ya know what's interesting about this little story to me. Despite the yelling, the private **** was right, and you were in the wrong. Your 8 million $$ plane will come apart just fine if you hit a $12k Cessna due to you being in violation of the pattern, in addition to likely your ops spec as well. Just one perspective from the part 61 ****. Then, you shafted the FBO when they were completely blameless.
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While I agree the airplane's price tag is rather immaterial in this story, I don't believe Captain was in the wrong. It's perfectly legal to make a right hand turn to join a 5 mile final at an uncontrolled airport that has a left traffic pattern for that runway. In addition IIRC, it's also legal to make a 20° turn in the "wrong" direction much closer to the runway than 5 miles as the FAA considers any airplane on a course that's within 30° of the runway to be on a straight in approach.
 
Is it legal to make a left hand ninety dgree turn two mile from the threshold (published right hand pattern) if you call it a straight-in? I've seen it done.
 
Witmo said:
Is it legal to make a left hand ninety dgree turn two mile from the threshold (published right hand pattern) if you call it a straight-in? I've seen it done.
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No. I thought I stated the parameters for a legal approach flown from the "wrong" side but I see I left out some of the parameters. Make your turn at least 4nm from the threshold when you turn unless you are already within 30° of the runway heading. Also although not specifically required I recommend you make your turn further from the threshold than any aircraft on the "legal" base leg even if that's at or beyond 4nm (can happen if the pattern if busy although you might want to reconsider the straight in approach in that case).
 
IS IT IN THE AF/D OR NOTAMS?? If it is in any of those publications... Then that should be looked out for, but if not... screw 'em! Oh, and to think they would make an AC about his beloved airport is nonsense... You did the right thing, got the hell out of their before fists were thrown lol... life goes on..
 
Since the left/right patterns are being discussed - here's my home field http://www.airnav.com/airport/KDED

Say you are coming from the NNW (heading 150 for the picky types), winds are 230 at 12, runways at the airport are 5-23 and 12-30, you plan to end up on the South side of the airport.
Daytime, ops normal, say 3 other planes in the pattern using 23.
Would you
a) make a big fat circle around the airport and join on the 45 to left downwind rwy 23
b) overfly the airport and teardrop to the 45 to left downwind rwy 23
c) midfield crosswind arrival for rwy 23 (just being politically correct to the RV drivers)
d) join on the right base rwy 23
e) straight in and land on 12 and hold short of 5-23 with a tad of tailwind

Thank you for taking a minute to answer
 
alfadog said:
Another headscratcher at non-towered X51. Another in that about two years ago I wrote them up to the FAA for trying to act as air traffic control and tell me that I had to land on the "preferred" runway when I was looking for crosswind practice. I ignored them then and I plan on ignoring them now.

Here is the story. Took some folks up today for a bit of flying experience (for them). They are students at the A&P school. We were doing t&g's and then a full stop. We we ended up dragging it in and plopping down on the numbers nice and slow. I braked to a full stop and spun around to see how we did. Mind you, we were the only folks using the airport. We were about 500 feet down the runway, turn-off 1000 feet ahead. I turn again then realized it would be best if I back-taxied as we were going to the ramp behind us to switch the right seat pax. I call the back-taxi and go to the ramp. The Unicom (County employee manager) comes on and tells me that "back-taxi not permitted". I say I am not aware of anything like that and go about my business. While we are in the pattern he comes back and asks me to stop by his office to look at something. Yeah, right. I am nice but no way I am going out of my way for that. I ask him what he is looking at, FAR, Advisory Circular, what? He says it is the operating agreement for the airport. I tell him I will come by the next time I am getting gas over there but not today. Leave it friendly.

I am not finding this agreement online but wonder how an operating agreement at a non-towered airport can control the flight operations of visiting pilots???

Anyone have experience with something like this?
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If this was a county employee go to the next board meeting and tell them what happened and what the regs are. If they tell you they do not want "back taxiing" on a public airport subject to the FARS they will have to pay back all of the federal monies they took for improvements. All of it. :eek:

Case closed. ;)

Sounds like this guy was still poed over you writing them up for being ATC.
 
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Geico266 said:
If this was a county employee go to the next board meeting and tell them what happened and what the regs are. If they tell you they do not want "back taxiing" on a public airport subject to the FARS they will have to pay back all of the federal monies they took for improvements. All of it. :eek:

Case closed. ;)

Sounds like this guy was still poed over you writing them up for being ATC.
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A little more research is called for here. If you go try to pull them up on "it's not written out", you'd find yourself humbled real fast.

X51 is owned and operated by Miami-Dade county, not the city of Homestead. The 1995 operating agreement is a nice document, but the first line notes that it is authorized by Chapter 25 of the Code of Municipal Dade County.

A slight bit more research would yeild this page, similar to the Homestead link above, but appropriate to the county:
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=10620&stateId=9&stateName=Florida

Section 25-10.13 is interesting, especially

(d) No person shall turn an aircraft in order to reverse direction on the runway, unless given specific instructions or authorization to do so by the control tower.

So it IS part of a published municipal code. You just didn't know it, but ignorance of the law is no excuse.

DOH!
 
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gismo said:
It's perfectly legal to make a right hand turn to join a 5 mile final at an uncontrolled airport that has a left traffic pattern for that runway. In addition IIRC, it's also legal to make a 20° turn in the "wrong" direction much closer to the runway than 5 miles as the FAA considers any airplane on a course that's within 30° of the runway to be on a straight in approach.
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Not sure where you're getting this 5-mile limit. The NTSB cases on point suggest you can establish yourself for a straight-in from either side as long as you're outside the "traffic pattern area," which in various cases was 2-3 miles out, depending on size of aircraft (more for a 737 than a C-172). See Administrator v. Boardman and the cases cited therein.
 
Witmo said:
Is it legal to make a left hand ninety dgree turn two mile from the threshold (published right hand pattern) if you call it a straight-in? I've seen it done.
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In your 150 with nothing but light planes around, that's pushing the inner limit. In a B737 in a pattern full of jets, no, it's too close. See the Boardman case cited above for more.
 
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moonshine said:
Since the left/right patterns are being discussed - here's my home field http://www.airnav.com/airport/KDED

Say you are coming from the NNW (heading 150 for the picky types), winds are 230 at 12, runways at the airport are 5-23 and 12-30, you plan to end up on the South side of the airport.
Daytime, ops normal, say 3 other planes in the pattern using 23.
Would you
a) make a big fat circle around the airport and join on the 45 to left downwind rwy 23
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No. No point in going that far out of my way.
b) overfly the airport and teardrop to the 45 to left downwind rwy 23
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No. Don't like putting the airport behind me like that.
c) midfield crosswind arrival for rwy 23 (just being politically correct to the RV drivers)
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There is no such thing as a "midfield crosswind," since by definition the crosswind leg is out beyond the departure end of the runway. However, I would not make a midfield crossover to join the downwind from the inside -- with three other planes in the pattern and maybe someone else making the 45-downwind, there's too much chance of ending up beak-to-beak with two other planes at the midfield downwind point.
d) join on the right base rwy 23
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No -- right turns in the pattern are prohibited by regulation on this left-traffic runway.
e) straight in and land on 12 and hold short of 5-23 with a tad of tailwind
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No. I don't like landing with a tailwind.

So much for the five choices you gave.

Now, what would I do? Either alter course to the east to join the straight-in for 23 at least 3 miles out, or descend to TPA and enter the real crosswind leg for 23 from the NW side at TPA.
 
Geico266 said:
If this was a county employee go to the next board meeting and tell them what happened and what the regs are. If they tell you they do not want "back taxiing" on a public airport subject to the FARS they will have to pay back all of the federal monies they took for improvements. All of it. :eek:

Case closed. ;)

Sounds like this guy was still poed over you writing them up for being ATC.
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No way he knew it was me. This is the written operating regs from the Miami-Dade Aviation Dept (MDAD). Same Dept that runs MIA. My guess is that it is perfectly OK with the FAA for them to forbid back-taxiing at their non-towered airports. Just my opinion.
 
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