Illegal to back-taxi??!!

steingar said:
I guess my point was deciding with your feet would not seem to cut off your nose of spite your face in an airport-rich region like Florida. But your airplane, your home, you do as you like.
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X51 is pretty unique for folks out of KTMB as far as VFR training and practice. Only a few miles away, uncontrolled, and clear of the Class Bravo. If it was something onerous then I might but I can live without back-taxiing and I do not consider it a wild over-exercise of authority for the County to say that we do not want folks back-taxiing. Normally, this is a fairly busy training environment. It was unusual to have the place to myself to where I would back-taxi.
 
Ron Levy said:
Advisory Circulars do not trump regulations, and there is case law on point. Don't bet your ticket on this AC on this point or you may end up like Mr. Fekete. Nothing wrong with asking the pilot on the straight-in if you can turn in front, but if you turn in front of them forcing them to alter their approach and they make an issue of it, you are the one on whom the FAA hammer falls, regardless of what that AC says.
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Roger that. Thanks.
 
weilke said:
'roger' would have been the response from the professional pilot you are aspiring to be.
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After announcing that I was on a straight in to some sleepy hollow airport someone came on the radio and announced that they fly left patterns there. I immediately replied that I understood and was transitioning to a left final.

Never heard anything about it.
 
alfadog said:
Advisory Circular AC 90-42F Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating Control Towers...
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And advisory circulars trump regulations? I don't think so!
 
weilke said:
'roger' would have been the response from the professional pilot you are aspiring to be.
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If someone gives me lip I give it right back.

Oh, and I am a professional pilot.
 
Brad Z said:
That's a good example of hazardous attitude #2.
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Because not listening to Jethro on the radio at an uncontrolled airport is a hazardous attitude - ROFL.

I'm going to exhibit it again and not listen to you either.
 
DavidWhite said:
If someone gives me lip I give it right back.

Oh, and I am a professional pilot.
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You may get paid to fly, based on what you posted here, you are not a professional quite yet.
 
alfadog said:
Advisory Circular AC 90-42F Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating Control Towers

13. IFR AIRCRAFT.

When operating in accordance with an IFR clearance, if air traffic control (ATC) approves a change to the advisory frequency, change to and monitor the CTAF as soon as possible and follow the recommended traffic advisory procedures.

Advisory Circular AC 90-66A Traffic Patterns and Practices at Non-Towered Airports

e. The FAA encourages pilots to use the standard traffic pattern. However, for those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Therefore, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times to aircraft executing straight-in approaches.

f. Pilots who wish to conduct instrument approaches should be particularly alert for other aircraft in the pattern so as to avoid interrupting the flow of traffic. Position reports on the CTAF should include distance and direction from the airport, as well as the pilot's intentions upon completion of the approach.
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So where are you supposed to announce your break?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
"Professional" is an attitude, too, David. And from what I have seen in this thread, points are being made.
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If some guy sitting on his hangar couch drinking beer hollers on the radio that I can't back taxi and gives no valid reason - I'm going to tell him to go kick rocks. Especially when it means a shorter taxi back to the FBO. I wouldn't have done it on company time, FWIW. This was back when I had my 172 so it wasn't terribly recently, but still.
 
wsuffa said:
Apparently it is an airport rule. A little web search turned this up: http://www.lafa.com/X51OpDir54.pdf

It is on the LAFA website. http://www.lafa.com/X-51.htm

Pretty hard for a transient to figure out. Sounds like the airport is not particularly informative to transients.

Double secret probation, indeed.
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That's a "Hobbiest's" web page, not the "official" airport page managed by the airport Managment. That information should be on the "official" page for transients to be able to find it.
 
Anymouse said:
After announcing that I was on a straight in to some sleepy hollow airport someone came on the radio and announced that they fly left patterns there. I immediately replied that I understood and was transitioning to a left final.

Never heard anything about it.
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He prolly turned to his buddies and said, "Guess I showed him what for!"
 
BillTIZ said:
That's a "Hobbiest's" web page, not the "official" airport page managed by the airport Managment. That information should be on the "official" page for transients to be able to find it.
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No disagreement.
 
BillTIZ said:
That's a "Hobbiest's" web page, not the "official" airport page managed by the airport Managment. That information should be on the "official" page for transients to be able to find it.
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Absolutely. There were a couple other little surprises for me in there that bother me more than the back-taxi thing. Related to who can use the grass strip. Luckily, never had that enforced on me.
 
timwinters said:
Except that the CTAF cops typically have no authority...rather they are simpleton d***heads.
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The second hazardous attitude is impulsivity...i.e. feeling the need to mouth off on the radio when doing so adds no value to safety and takes up bandwidth.

I suspect David is like many of the teens on this board and will eventually grow up and not get so riled up when someone says something to him that he doesn't like.
 
I can see impulsivity - not anti-authority. I am by nature an impulsive person and battle impulsiveness regularly.
 
DavidWhite said:
I can see impulsivity - not anti-authority. I am by nature an impulsive person and battle impulsiveness regularly.
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Keep battling, it'll serve you well in your chosen career.
 
Personally, I'd have shut the radio off and continued on my business. I know that's not a young guy thing to do, but I've dealt with enough CTAF police to know better than to try to get in a discussion on the radio.
 
weilke said:
Keep battling, it'll serve you well in your chosen career.
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I have gotten immensely better over the last 12 months - perhaps todays grumpiness is related to my 13 hour work day.
 
RyanShort1 said:
And of course the FAA would agree anyway with the aerobatics part.

Ryan
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Not necessarily. There are some uncongested areas (farm land) within the city limits where one could legally perform aerobatics.
 
Well, this turned into a story of mine.

We are IFR and cut loose from ATC going into an VMC field with no tower. I'm flying and the FO has the radios. They have a 9/27 runway config and the winds favor runway 9. Not by a lot but enough to make that the preferred runway.

So, I'm flying and FO has the radios. He makes a call that we are entering a right base to runway 9. I immediately scold him for that stupid call. I'm like, "WTF dude? 9 is left traffic and you just called us on a right base."

MY plan, as PIC, is to enter a final at least 5 miles final as that's what has been determined to be legal. His plan is to just call us willy nilly whatever he thinks it is. Yes, it would be a right turn (15 or 20 degrees) to join final five miles out, but five out is a straight in approach and I don't care who you ask about that. For him to call us on a right base five out on a runway that depicts left traffic is just dumb...anyhoo...

Well, this happens all the time and I figure it's just one of those times. But when he made that call someone key'd the mic and said, 'runway 9 is LEFT traffic!' in a stern voice...like he owned the joint.

Okay, fine..'when in ROME' and all. So I abandoned my 5 mile final and instead over flew the field at 1,500 and entered the left downwind for 9. We land and pull into the ramp.

No problems, right? Wrong. Some dude in a suit comes running out to meet us and as soon as my FO opens the door I hear him yelling about how we're 'going to KILL someone'. Honestly, I thought it was a fed and I shouted to my FO to just come here and not engage him.

I entered my times into the logbook and went outside to see to this 'fed'...but he was gone. I went into the FBO and asked where he was. They had no idea what I was talking about.

I said someone was just screamed at my FO on the ramp and had words with us on the radio...who was that?

They said, "oh, that guy that me you on the ramp? He's not a fed...he just passed his private last week and bases his plane here."

WTF? Some private **** thought it was okay to come out and yell at a flight crew about traffic patterns? We're both ATP's and we're flying an $8M plane. To make nice we flew over the field even though we didn't need to and we STILL get yelled at by 'Mr. Private Pilot'? Seriously???

I told the FBO about what I heard and last I heard they were going to toss him out of the FBO (he hangared his plane there). I also informed them that they lost 200 gallons of Jet A over the deal. The FBO was cool, but I had to make a financial consequence for my private pilot radio cop. Nobody yells at my FO and then runs away...
 
BTW...our little 'yeller' was a part 61 trained guy. See what I mean about standards???
 
Captain said:
Well, this turned into a story of mine.

We are IFR and cut loose from ATC going into an VMC field with no tower. I'm flying and the FO has the radios. They have a 9/27 runway config and the winds favor runway 9. Not by a lot but enough to make that the preferred runway.

So, I'm flying and FO has the radios. He makes a call that we are entering a right base to runway 9. I immediately scold him for that stupid call. I'm like, "WTF dude? 9 is left traffic and you just called us on a right base."

MY plan, as PIC, is to enter a final at least 5 miles final as that's what has been determined to be legal. His plan is to just call us willy nilly whatever he thinks it is. Yes, it would be a right turn (15 or 20 degrees) to join final five miles out, but five out is a straight in approach and I don't care who you ask about that. For him to call us on a right base five out on a runway that depicts left traffic is just dumb...anyhoo...

Well, this happens all the time and I figure it's just one of those times. But when he made that call someone key'd the mic and said, 'runway 9 is LEFT traffic!' in a stern voice...like he owned the joint.

Okay, fine..'when in ROME' and all. So I abandoned my 5 mile final and instead over flew the field at 1,500 and entered the left downwind for 9. We land and pull into the ramp.

No problems, right? Wrong. Some dude in a suit comes running out to meet us and as soon as my FO opens the door I hear him yelling about how we're 'going to KILL someone'. Honestly, I thought it was a fed and I shouted to my FO to just come here and not engage him.

I entered my times into the logbook and went outside to see to this 'fed'...but he was gone. I went into the FBO and asked where he was. They had no idea what I was talking about.

I said someone was just screamed at my FO on the ramp and had words with us on the radio...who was that?

They said, "oh, that guy that me you on the ramp? He's not a fed...he just passed his private last week and bases his plane here."

WTF? Some private **** thought it was okay to come out and yell at a flight crew about traffic patterns? We're both ATP's and we're flying an $8M plane. To make nice we flew over the field even though we didn't need to and we STILL get yelled at by 'Mr. Private Pilot'? Seriously???

I told the FBO about what I heard and last I heard they were going to toss him out of the FBO (he hangared his plane there). I also informed them that they lost 200 gallons of Jet A over the deal. The FBO was cool, but I had to make a financial consequence for my private pilot radio cop. Nobody yells at my FO and then runs away...
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I've seen some professional flight crews that go way out of their way to try and enter the pattern "properly" on the 45 for the downwind.

So,

A few weeks ago I was in a pattern on runway 14 doing touch and go's with multiple aircraft all doing left traffic. Suddenly some Ameriflight guy pops up and says he is 8 miles to the southwest and is on the 45 for the left downwind 14. I called back and asked what his position was again and he said southwest flying the 45 for the left downwind for 14.

I scratched my head trying to figure out where the hell this guy was and how he figured himself on the 45 for the downwind. Finally not wanting to get ran over by Ameriflight I said "suggest you just come straight in on 14 and we'll all just extend our downwind until we see you". He decided that seemed like a good idea and all was well with the world. My plan B was just to drop down to 500 feet and find another airport.

I have observed that Ameriflight in general won't do a straight in and seems to always try to do a 45 for the left downwind even if that means flying all the way around an airport running down anyone in their path.
 
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Captain said:
Well, this turned into a story of mine.

We are IFR and cut loose from ATC going into an VMC field with no tower. I'm flying and the FO has the radios. They have a 9/27 runway config and the winds favor runway 9. Not by a lot but enough to make that the preferred runway.

So, I'm flying and FO has the radios. He makes a call that we are entering a right base to runway 9. I immediately scold him for that stupid call. I'm like, "WTF dude? 9 is left traffic and you just called us on a right base."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WTF? Some private **** thought it was okay to come out and yell at a flight crew about traffic patterns? We're both ATP's and we're flying an $8M plane. To make nice we flew over the field even though we didn't need to and we STILL get yelled at by 'Mr. Private Pilot'? Seriously???

I told the FBO about what I heard and last I heard they were going to toss him out of the FBO (he hangared his plane there). I also informed them that they lost 200 gallons of Jet A over the deal. The FBO was cool, but I had to make a financial consequence for my private pilot radio cop. Nobody yells at my FO and then runs away...
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Ya know what's interesting about this little story to me. Despite the yelling, the private **** was right, and you were in the wrong. Your 8 million $$ plane will come apart just fine if you hit a $12k Cessna due to you being in violation of the pattern, in addition to likely your ops spec as well. Just one perspective from the part 61 ****. Then, you shafted the FBO when they were completely blameless.
 
docmirror said:
Ya know what's interesting about this little story to me. Despite the yelling, the private **** was right, and you were in the wrong. Your 8 million $$ plane will come apart just fine if you hit a $12k Cessna due to you being in violation of the pattern, in addition to likely your ops spec as well. Just one perspective from the part 61 ****. Then, you shafted the FBO when they were completely blameless.
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Agree it would have made by far more sense for Captain to say: "Understand, thank you, we'll actually be straight in runway X"
 
jesse said:
I have observed that Ameriflight in general won't do a straight in.
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The nazi culture of AMF and the SOP are to thank...I speak from personal experience ..
 
I have been called the CTAF police for informing pilots that the published traffic pattern is right hand and not the left pattern they're flying. Most apologize for not checking first. I don't care how they enter the pattern as long as they enter the correct one. The ones that complain are the same ones that leave their aircraft at the ss pump to walk over to the fbo and check email for half an hour or use the airport car all day and don't put a drop of gas in it cuz we should feel blessed that they visited. They never have to deal with the property owners for whom the right pattern was instituted to limit noise. I'm just a power hungry CTAF cop.
 
Witmo said:
I have been called the CTAF police for informing pilots that the published traffic pattern is right hand and not the left pattern they're flying.
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THAT is a very appropriate thing to convey in my opinion. I've missed RP a few times on the chart and been corrected. Like you say, I just apologize, redirect (if it's caught in time) and continue on.

The key to your statement though is the word published.
 
Brad Z said:
The second hazardous attitude is impulsivity...i.e. feeling the need to mouth off on the radio when doing so adds no value to safety and takes up bandwidth.

I suspect David is like many of the teens on this board and will eventually grow up and not get so riled up when someone says something to him that he doesn't like.
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There was a Bonanza-owning pattern policeman at a local uncontrolled field and his harassment of flight school students got an FAA ops inspector into the act. He pointed out to the loudmouth that the FCC specified the legal use for the Unicom frequency and that he was misusing the frequency. He's been a good little boy since then.

Bob Gardner
 
timwinters said:
THAT is a very appropriate thing to convey in my opinion. I've missed RP a few times on the chart and been corrected. Like you say, I just apologize, redirect (if it's caught in time) and continue on.

The key to your statement though is the word published.
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Exactly. I got called on that at KTNT. Missed that 27 is RP (actually, didn't bother to check - it is out in the middle of nowhere). Another pilot corrected me. I checked, he was right, I altered my pattern. No big deal.
 
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