IFR routing question

[Frogs97]

Had an early morning commercial flight back from Denver today. Flightaware has a cool feature that lets you look up a commercial flight and load the filed flight plan into Foreflight, and this is what came up.

KDEN PYPER BGD POTTY KDFW

After take off and flying the departure, we made it to PYPER and then headed towards BGD. Sometime before we made the VOR, the pilot hung a left and headed directly to the next waypoint.

As someone that has just started studying for my IR, I was wondering if this was something that ATC would have just done, or if there were other ways this might have come about?

If this was assigned by ATC, somebody please tell the 13yo in me that at sometime this morning there was a controller that had to utter the phrase "Frontier 124 proceed direct to POTTY" or something like that.

 

[Clark1961]

Obviously I don't know the details but can mention a few things. DEN approach loves their SIDs, Denver center will give direct if they can but doesn't seem to go out of their way. Albuquerque would be the one to allow bypassing BGD. I don't know if Albuquerque would have to coordinate direct POTTY with Forth Worth. I do know that I've seen opposite direction traffic around Amarillo while riding on the aluminum tube.

 

[James_Dean]

I fly from NW Iowa to central Ohio a few times a month, usually IFR. Direct will clip the class bravo around Chicago and approach will almost never clear you through on this routing. I have learned to file a the routing with an intermediate waypoint south of their airspace. About 1/3 of the time they will have me fly the route with no changes, another 1/3 will clear me direct destination before I reach the intermediate but will remain clear of the bravo, and the other 1/3 get asked to hold heading after passing the waypoint before turning direct. I think it is all traffic and spacing dependent and usually there is a direct correlation between how polite/nice the controller is and what saves me the most time. YMMV. On the last few trips they have been more inclined to ask me if I can climb/descend rather than change routing.

It's all up to ATC and these changes happen all the time.

 

[Kritchlow]

Had an early morning commercial flight back from Denver today. Flightaware has a cool feature that lets you look up a commercial flight and load the filed flight plan into Foreflight, and this is what came up.

KDEN PYPER BGD POTTY KDFW

After take off and flying the departure, we made it to PYPER and then headed towards BGD. Sometime before we made the VOR, the pilot hung a left and headed directly to the next waypoint.

As someone that has just started studying for my IR, I was wondering if this was something that ATC would have just done, or if there were other ways this might have come about?

If this was assigned by ATC, somebody please tell the 13yo in me that at sometime this morning there was a controller that had to utter the phrase "Frontier 124 proceed direct to POTTY" or something like that.

You're correct, ATC must have muttered that. Whether the crew or ATC instigated it is unknown, and irrelevant. Shortening up the planned IFR route is commonplace. In general it happens several times every leg.

 

[Shawn]

As someone that has just started studying for my IR, I was wondering if this was something that ATC would have just done, or if there were other ways this might have come about?

If you are /G it is quite common for ATC to clear you direct to your next waypoint rather than flying the full route as filed and cleared. Sometimes it is offered up unsolicited as well as pilots can request "direct [waypoint]" at any time (although ATC is not always able).

Your filed/cleared route is not set in stone once you are underway, think of it more as your roadmap you need to follow if you loose coms. In radar contact and in communication, my cleared route and actual flown route rarely match in the end (usually to my advantage).

In a simple example, I fly outta an uncontrolled field and the Departure Procedure take you to SNS VOR first then from there you can join an airway to go any direction, but SNS is the only gateway out. Even though I am filed and cleared to SNS as my first waypoint, I almost never fly all the way to SNS. As soon as I have radar contact and have enough altitude for terrain clearance, I get direct to another waypoint by ATC giving me a shortcut without even asking.

again...that is /G. If you are navigating by VOR's, you are limited to those radio nav aids to be cleared to that you can dial up.

 

[pilotjlr]

Every IFR flight has three separate routes: what you file, what you are cleared, and what you actually fly.

 

[eetrojan]

I plopped that route into SkyVector and note that while it's not quite a straight line, the angle between the segment from PIPER to BGD and from BGD to POTTY are VERY oblique.

SkyVector

Is it possible that the left turn you observed was just the pilot leading the turn at BGD, perhaps quite liberally?

 

[Kritchlow]

If you are /G it is quite common for ATC to clear you direct to your next waypoint rather than flying the full route as filed and cleared. Sometimes it is offered up unsolicited as well as pilots can request "direct [waypoint]" at any time (although ATC is not always able).

Your filed/cleared route is not set in stone once you are underway, think of it more as your roadmap you need to follow if you loose coms. In radar contact and in communication, my cleared route and actual flown route rarely match in the end (usually to my advantage).

In a simple example, I fly outta an uncontrolled field and the Departure Procedure take you to SNS VOR first then from there you can join an airway to go any direction, but SNS is the only gateway out. Even though I am filed and cleared to SNS as my first waypoint, I almost never fly all the way to SNS. As soon as I have radar contact and have enough altitude for terrain clearance, I get direct to another waypoint by ATC giving me a shortcut without even asking.

again...that is /G. If you are navigating by VOR's, you are limited to those radio nav aids to be cleared to that you can dial up.

It's an airliner

 

[Kritchlow]

Every IFR flight has three separate routes: what you file, what you are cleared, and what you actually fly.

True, but airliners generally get what they file. Or more accurately they file what they will get!!

Actually, some routes we don't even take a short cut due to fuel planning. So... There are times there is only 1 route.

 

[flyingron]

True, but airliners generally get what they file. Or more accurately they file what they will get!!

On more than one occasion I've heard airliners get offered shortcuts. I remember one time listening in on ATC-on-9 on United hearing us get sent direct to the destination and hearing the pilot acknowledge with the fact that there was cheering from the back of the plane.


One of my Air Force buddies told me:

File what you want.
Fly what you get.
Log what you need.

 

[frfly172]

Mostly you get what you file,however when you just settle in ,set up the flight plan,in the GPS they give you a change of route.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

"Denver, AA4220 doesn't have to go POTTY anymore."

"AA4220, roger, proceed direct DFW".

"Direct DFW, AA4220."

 

[rocketflyer84]

If the route has some bends in it its common for ATC to clear you to cut a corner and fly direct to a point further along in your flight plan. One can also request this and it's usually granted unless there's too much traffic in the area.

Sometimes you'll be told to intercept an intersection on the airway rather than a VOR and if that's not directly part of the flight plan one has to quickly check the map to make sure you get the right fix. In such a scenario ATC usually says "when able proceed direct" since they know it will likely take you a few moments to orient yourself and get the new fix entered into the GPS before you start turning.

 

[ahkahn]

Yeah, once you take off your cleared route becomes a crap-shoot. I'll bet 80% of my flights change once I go wheels up. Some shorten and some lengthen. Just depends on traffic flows, airspace letters of agreement, etc.

 

[Unit74]

I hear it all the time.....


Center, big Iran 2510, is it possible we can have (fix) direct this morning?


Big Iran 2510 stand by, request on file


Big iron 2510, cleared direct (fix)


Big iron 2510 cleared direct (fix), thanks for the help.

 

[rocketflyer84]

I hear it all the time.....


Center, big Iran 2510, is it possible we can have (fix) direct this morning?


Big Iran 2510 stand by, request on file

Actually, I think the ATC response to that would be to call NORAD and scramble the fighters!

 

[Shawn]

It's an airliner

Yes, but he is a GA pilot and IFR student asking how the system works.

I would hope and airliner would not be flying outta an uncontrolled field (with maybe the exception of an occasional lost Southwest Airliner!)

 

[Marauder]

What always gets me is the airway to airway intercept without an intersection. Anyone have an idea why they do that? If it is an ATC route preference, don't you think it would make sense to throw an intersection bone out there for us "magenta line lemmings"?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[flyingron]

I was expecting some jokes about controller changes after all the POTTY jokes.

The one that got me is I'm flying along on what is pretty much always a direct routing (BZM LYH CJR). Sometimes they even give me direct CJR but it's pretty much a straight line anyhow. Last time, right around LYH, I get "I have a route change for you, advise when ready to copy." Great, I think, how can they screw this up.... I dig out a pad and pen and tell them go ahead.

Direct CSN Direct CJR. Great, I needed a heads up to copy that? OK, I'll go direct CSN now. A handoff later I ask for direct CJR again and get it.

I still remember my IFR student XC. I filed what looked good over a few airways to my destination. Call for the clearance. Get a completely different route (hadn't yet learned that all CJR departures go to CSN except in an odd case sometimes MOL, but GVE is right out). Takeoff, contact departure. We've got a new route for you. Ready to copy. Hey this is the same route I filed. Never understood what that one was about.

 

[danyay]

Yes, but he is a GA pilot and IFR student asking how the system works.

I would hope and airliner would not be flying outta an uncontrolled field (with maybe the exception of an occasional lost Southwest Airliner!)

Really? I bet there are a lot of regionals flying out of uncontrolled fields. Most of them EAS airports, I bet. My hometown of KJHW being one.

Not to mention, until a couple years ago, KUNV was non towered.

 

[flyingron]

Not to mention, until a couple years ago, KUNV was non towered.

Except the FBO unicom jockey thought he was a controller.

 

[Kritchlow]

Yes, but he is a GA pilot and IFR student asking how the system works.

I would hope and airliner would not be flying outta an uncontrolled field (with maybe the exception of an occasional lost Southwest Airliner!)

Airlines do fly out of uncontrolled fields. Not often though. Mostly it's after tower has closed, but u have seen straight uncontrolled.

 

[ahkahn]

Airlines do fly out of uncontrolled fields. Not often though. Mostly it's after tower has closed, but u have seen straight uncontrolled.

My favorite was the time I flew into KPGD (Punta Gorda) after tower closed. Hearing a couple of airliners in the pattern was kinda cool. "Punta Gorda Traffic, Allegiant 123 on final runway XX".

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yes, Virginia, once en route ATC gives shortcuts, traffic permitting. Sometimes pilots ask for them, sometimes ATC initiates them without a pilot specifically asking for it. Happens every day and it's not any more complicated than that.

 

[flyingron]

Airlines do fly out of uncontrolled fields. Not often though. Mostly it's after tower has closed, but u have seen straight uncontrolled.

We've got a local field with a few airline operations at it. No tower (ever) and no EAS.

 

[PeeGee]

Yes, Virginia, once en route ATC gives shortcuts, traffic permitting. Sometimes pilots ask for them, sometimes ATC initiates them without a pilot specifically asking for it. Happens every day and it's not any more complicated than that.

Basically. Pilot asked for something, controller gave it to him.
9/10 it's actually not the right thing to do and costs the flight time.

I don't even see how this is a question.

 

[PeeGee]

DEN approach loves their SIDs

What? Show me a major airport that doesn't have every flight on a SID.

 

[StinkBug]

You're correct, ATC must have muttered that. Whether the crew or ATC instigated it is unknown, and irrelevant. Shortening up the planned IFR route is commonplace. In general it happens several times every leg.

Exactly. My last flight from San Diego to San Francisco and back I was told "cleared direct ___________" at least 4 times, each one shaving a few miles off. Usually not much, but enough to make me happy.

 

[StinkBug]

What? Show me a major airport that doesn't have every flight on a SID.

I've flown to many major airports and never flown a SID. Airlines and biz jets, sure, but if you're in a piston single they aren't gonna make you fly the procedure.

 

[Clark1961]

What? Show me a major airport that doesn't have every flight on a SID.

Denver approach uses SIDs even when going to a "reliever" airport but sometimes they skip it when I'm enroute to FTG from the East. From the North, West, and South I think I've always been on a SID.

Houston approach has been a total crap shoot. Sometimes vectors, sometimes a SID and then vectors. I've always been going to EFD from the northwest.

 

[jordane93]

I've flown to many major airports and never flown a SID. Airlines and biz jets, sure, but if you're in a piston single they aren't gonna make you fly the procedure.

Not necessarily. There are some SIDs for turbojet/prop planes and also some simple SIDS that piston planes can fly. You just have to read the chart. Most of the SIDs are simple. Fly heading XXX maintain XXXX, thence....

 

[Everskyward]

I plugged in the route KDEN-KDFW on fltplan.com and one of the choices for routing was STAKR3.PYPER BGD POTTY.DEBBB2. So it's pretty easy to imagine that the pilot either asked for and got direct POTTY, or it was assigned. Not sure why the OP felt a left turn though since the route looks like this.

 

[PeeGee]

I've flown to many major airports and never flown a SID. Airlines and biz jets, sure, but if you're in a piston single they aren't gonna make you fly the procedure.

What does anything, anywhere in his question have to do with piston singles?

 

[flyingron]

I've flown to many major airports and never flown a SID. Airlines and biz jets, sure, but if you're in a piston single they aren't gonna make you fly the procedure.

Dulles nearly always gives you the CAPITAL (I think they're up to NINE) departure. It's not much of a SID but it's a SID. I got surprised when I was down at HKY (not the busiest place in the world these days) and was given a SID there (HICKORY THREE).

 

[StinkBug]

What does anything, anywhere in his question have to do with piston singles?

You said "every flight". Do those of us in private aircraft not count as flights?

 

[Frogs97]

I plopped that route into SkyVector and note that while it's not quite a straight line, the angle between the segment from PIPER to BGD and from BGD to POTTY are VERY oblique.

SkyVector

Is it possible that the left turn you observed was just the pilot leading the turn at BGD, perhaps quite liberally?

It was about 45 miles, so quite liberally would be right, if that's what happened.

 

[Frogs97]

"Denver, AA4220 doesn't have to go POTTY anymore."

"AA4220, roger, proceed direct DFW".

"Direct DFW, AA4220."

Thank you for not leaving me hanging and making me feel like I was the only adolescent mind amused by this!

 

[Frogs97]

I plugged in the route KDEN-KDFW on fltplan.com and one of the choices for routing was STAKR3.PYPER BGD POTTY.DEBBB2. So it's pretty easy to imagine that the pilot either asked for and got direct POTTY, or it was assigned. Not sure why the OP felt a left turn though since the route looks like this.

I happened to be looking out the window at the time of the turn, but it was noticeable, even without that.

 

[James331]

He got a shortcut.

I'd say it's quite common, both offered by ATC and request by pilots.

 

[Kritchlow]

Basically. Pilot asked for something, controller gave it to him.
9/10 it's actually not the right thing to do and costs the flight time.

I don't even see how this is a question.

Don't think so... Airlines don't generally file the wind route. They file what they will get so they can plan fuel.