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JC150

Pre-takeoff checklist
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JC150
A good "what would you do" scenario...

I was holding short of the runway at an uncontrolled field and waiting for my IFR release. ATC said it'll be at least 10 minutes due to saturated airspace. 2 VFR aircraft pull up behind me, and since I was blocking their way to the runway, I decided to taxi down the runway to the first exit and get behind them. No big deal right? Now it gets interesting..

I see a Gulfstream taxiing down the taxiway also so I announced my intentions on the CTAF and explained I was waiting for an IFR release and was number 1 and was just moving out of the way for the 2 Cessnas to depart. I thought the Gulfstream would let me in front of him since I was number 1, but as I'm about to turn off the runway, he continues taxiing and stops at the intersection where I'm trying to vacate the runway. I cleared the runway, but I'm not able to get back on the taxiway. Then, I see a King Air taxiing toward us and pull up right behind the gulfstream. I sat there for about 10 minutes before getting released for departure from ATC, in which I told the controller the Gulfstream had to go first because I was stuck between the gulfstream and the runway, but I could be number 2 assuming the king air let me in front.

As the Gulfstream moves towards the runway, I figured the king air would let me in front of him so I start taxiing. What I didn't expect was the King Air also starts taxiing, following very closely behind the gulfstream (like cars tailgating in traffic) followed by a "What are you doing!" on the frequency and the pilot flicking me off. I said I was supposed to be number 2 and the king air just kept taxiing with pilots shaking their heads at me. From the time I initially got to the threshold to the time I actually departed, i spent nearly 35minutes waiting.

So What Would You Do? Would you have just waited and kept the VFR traffic waiting? I made it clear on the frequency that I was just getting out of their way and I felt the Gulfstream should have waited at the intersection for me to get in front of him. What could I have done differently? The field was Marginal VFR so I thought getting released on the ground wouldn't be a bad idea.
 
You did the right thing and just happened to encounter two selfish idiots, that's all. Now if they'd asked, "listen, we're burning 600 pounds an hour here just idling, would it be OK if we jumped ahead of you?" that would have been another thing.
 
Was there a run-up area or other place you could get out of the way? I wouldn't block the runway unless there was no choice. Could also get you clearance on the ramp. They usually give you time or ask when you'll be rolling.
 
There was no run-up area at this airport, and I was at the hold short line already when the VFR traffic pulled behind me.

In this particular case, i did pick up my clearance on the ramp, and the controller gave me a void time of 3 minutes. I told him I could not meet that since I was still on the ramp so he said "Call me back when number 1". After I called him back is when he said it'd be another 10 minutes before I could get released.

Is it better to get the clearance on the ramp or #1 holding short?
 
JC150 said:
I see a Gulfstream taxiing down the taxiway also so I announced my intentions on the CTAF and explained I was waiting for an IFR release and was number 1 and was just moving out of the way for the 2 Cessnas to depart. I thought the Gulfstream would let me in front of him since I was number 1, but as I'm about to turn off the runway, he continues taxiing and stops at the intersection where I'm trying to vacate the runway. I cleared the runway, but I'm not able to get back on the taxiway. Then, I see a King Air taxiing toward us and pull up right behind the gulfstream. I sat there for about 10 minutes before getting released for departure from ATC, in which I told the controller the Gulfstream had to go first because I was stuck between the gulfstream and the runway, but I could be number 2 assuming the king air let me in front.
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Could you have turned at that point and departed from the intersection?
 
No good deed goes unpunished.
Only possible thing that could excuse Mr. Jetjockey/Mr. Turboprop would be they were on atc frequency looking for a clearance as they came upon you and thought you were coming back in or something (although if there were two pilots, the other pilot should have been on unicom).
 
Could you take off VFR and pick up your clearance in the air?
 
I could've but the ceiling was about 1400' AGL and I wanted to side on safety and have an instrument clearance since I would've been in the clouds in less than 2 minutes at normal climb rate.
 
JC150 said:
A good "what would you do" scenario...

I was holding short of the runway at an uncontrolled field and waiting for my IFR release. ATC said it'll be at least 10 minutes due to saturated airspace. 2 VFR aircraft pull up behind me, and since I was blocking their way to the runway, I decided to taxi down the runway to the first exit and get behind them. No big deal right? Now it gets interesting..

I see a Gulfstream taxiing down the taxiway also so I announced my intentions on the CTAF and explained I was waiting for an IFR release and was number 1 and was just moving out of the way for the 2 Cessnas to depart. I thought the Gulfstream would let me in front of him since I was number 1, but as I'm about to turn off the runway, he continues taxiing and stops at the intersection where I'm trying to vacate the runway. I cleared the runway, but I'm not able to get back on the taxiway. Then, I see a King Air taxiing toward us and pull up right behind the gulfstream. I sat there for about 10 minutes before getting released for departure from ATC, in which I told the controller the Gulfstream had to go first because I was stuck between the gulfstream and the runway, but I could be number 2 assuming the king air let me in front.

As the Gulfstream moves towards the runway, I figured the king air would let me in front of him so I start taxiing. What I didn't expect was the King Air also starts taxiing, following very closely behind the gulfstream (like cars tailgating in traffic) followed by a "What are you doing!" on the frequency and the pilot flicking me off. I said I was supposed to be number 2 and the king air just kept taxiing with pilots shaking their heads at me. From the time I initially got to the threshold to the time I actually departed, i spent nearly 35minutes waiting.

So What Would You Do? Would you have just waited and kept the VFR traffic waiting? I made it clear on the frequency that I was just getting out of their way and I felt the Gulfstream should have waited at the intersection for me to get in front of him. What could I have done differently? The field was Marginal VFR so I thought getting released on the ground wouldn't be a bad idea.
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A controller that tells a pilot at a non towered field to report when you are number 1 for takeoff, doesn't know what's up.

There is no Tower there to ensure you are in fact number 1. Any number of things could happen , as in your situation. When you do report you are number 1, the controller may then give you a 1 minute void time, oblivious to the fact that there may be a VFR on final, delaying your departure.

About the only thing you could do different is to request a more reasonable void time of 5 or 6 minutes.
 
if you got your release first, I'd have whipped it around, back-taxi'd up the runway, and departed. You'd have been gone in less time than it took to have the radio conversation.
 
JHW said:
if you got your release first, I'd have whipped it around, back-taxi'd up the runway, and departed. You'd have been gone in less time than it took to have the radio conversation.
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20/20 hindsight, it seems. He had no way to know, when he first had the void time, that two turbine pilots were going to assert the Law of the 800 lb Gorilla.
 
JC150 said:
There was no run-up area at this airport, and I was at the hold short line already when the VFR traffic pulled behind me.

In this particular case, i did pick up my clearance on the ramp, and the controller gave me a void time of 3 minutes. I told him I could not meet that since I was still on the ramp so he said "Call me back when number 1". After I called him back is when he said it'd be another 10 minutes before I could get released.

Is it better to get the clearance on the ramp or #1 holding short?
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Tough to do. I don't recall getting that tight a window. With no area at the threshold, I'd get the clearance on the ramp so I'd have time to make sure I understood it and get the instruments set. Sounds like you got the best they could offer.
 
Just a thought... since you say the ceiling was 1400' AGL, might the two jet jockeys also have been on IFR clearances? Perhaps as you were taxiing out initially? Hence the "saturated airspace" once you got to the front of the line?
 
azure said:
20/20 hindsight, it seems. He had no way to know, when he first had the void time, that two turbine pilots were going to assert the Law of the 800 lb Gorilla.
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Yeah, but for future reference, if you already have your clearance then you own the IFR airspace and if you can get onto the runway first then you own the runway. Finding a way to use the clearance you have is going to be most expeditious for all parties, gorillas included

BTW totally different scenario but the other day an A380 got told to stop short of an intersection so I could come up a parallel taxiway and cut in front in the little king air 90. Yes, i know it has nothing to do with cutting the queue and everything to do with direction of departure, but still it was kind of fun.
 
stratobee said:
You did the right thing and just happened to encounter two selfish idiots, that's all. Now if they'd asked, "listen, we're burning 600 pounds an hour here just idling, would it be OK if we jumped ahead of you?" that would have been another thing.
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Except of course, the selfish idiots aren't paying for their fuel.
 
I would never be holding short at the line unless there was someone on final. If you pull up to the line, it is time to boogie. If you are holding for whatever reason, that is not the place.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I would never be holding short at the line unless there was someone on final. If you pull up to the line, it is time to boogie. If you are holding for whatever reason, that is not the place.
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That's not on him, that's on ATC. Uncontrolled airfield means one in one out in IFR. Tough cheese for the conga line behind.

He did an incredibly courteous thing by letting VFR traffic depart (they could have always just taken the early intersection, back taxied full length and departed VFR in front of him if so inclined) and got penalized for it by the fast food manager money, hour-chasing chumps in their glorified seneca. Completely unprofessional richard move on their part. :no:
 
Almost sounds like the Gulfstream was running interference for the King Air. Was theire traffic on the taxiway ahead of the Gulfstream that required him to stop right there blocking your exit? Did conditions at the time prevent you from back taxing on the runway or departing from the intersection? Could you have just stayed at the departure end, made enough room for the VFR's to get around you and then taxi back into the run up area awaiting release? What airport and runway was this?
 
Maybe so but the VFR guys taxiing up behind him have no idea what is going on. They are most likely on CTAF while he is on whatever frequency he was on waiting on his IFR clearance. And the inverse might have been true for the Gulfstream and King Air. Since he had switched over to CTAF by that time, those other IFR guys might not have heard him as they might have been on another frequency working on their clearance. All of it was probably a series of miscommunications but it seems to have all started when he got to the hold short line too early.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Maybe so but the VFR guys taxiing up behind him have no idea what is going on. They are most likely on CTAF while he is on whatever frequency he was on waiting on his IFR clearance. And the inverse might have been true for the Gulfstream and King Air. Since he had switched over to CTAF by that time, those other IFR guys might not have heard him as they might have been on another frequency working on their clearance. All of it was probably a series of miscommunications but it seems to have all started when he got to the hold short line too early.
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Yeah. Things happening on different frequencies complicates things. As far as getting to the hold short line early, that can be hard for a pilot to manage when ATC is giving 2-3 minute release windows. Maybe the Gulfstream held at that intersection to give himself room to get on the runway and back taxi for the a full length departure, but that wouldn't explain him blocking it instead of holding just prior to it. I really want to find out which runway at which airport this happened at. One thing is for sure, Durocher was right, "Nice guys finish [get released] Last.
 
Yeah, the other guys probably didn't know what was happening (even though you told them). Probably more emphasis needed when telling them.
Not sure what type you were in, but if it was a SEL piston airplane it was likely assumed by the Gulfsteam and King Air that you were VFR. It also may have been assumed that you landed and were turning off the runway...
 
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Sorry, double post.
 
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I'm not sure what the OP is flying, but releasing the Gulfstream, King Air, and then the single--in that order--would likely be the most efficient release order. ATC tends not to like slower traffic in front of faster traffic.

Me, I probably would have been slightly annoyed but would just get back in line and not say anything. It's kind of like picking the slowest line at the register.

I'm probably more annoyed by the guys taking off with a 1,400 foot ceiling. How are they planning on staying VFR?
 
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Brad Z said:
I'm not sure what the OP is flying, but releasing the Gulfstream, King Air, and then the single--in that order--would likely be the most efficient release order. ATC tends not to like slower traffic in front of faster traffic.

Me, I probably would have been slightly annoyed but would just get back in line and not say anything. It's kind of like picking the slowest line at the register.

I'm probably more annoyed by the guys taking off with a 1,400 foot ceiling. How are they planning on staying VFR?
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I know the thread title makes it sound that way, but the way I read the post was ATC was not the problem, but rather the other airplanes on the ground.
 
JHW said:
Yeah, but for future reference, if you already have your clearance then you own the IFR airspace and if you can get onto the runway first then you own the runway. Finding a way to use the clearance you have is going to be most expeditious for all parties, gorillas included
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Not sure what you're suggesting here. Should the OP have accepted a void time he didn't think he could make, back taxi to claim the runway, and then when he came up short, sat there and called back and said he was ready to go now? What if the line was busy, or ATC was so busy they told him to stand by? Sounds expeditious for him all right, but not necessarily for everyone else...
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
No good deed goes unpunished.
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Boy, is that ever the truth. You have to think a couple moves ahead in this game all the time, even on the ground. In this case, "situational awareness" would mean cognizance of the Gulfstream and KingAir before relinquishing your spot and then coordinating your move with the lead plane. Somedays, you get the elevator, sometimes the shaft.

As for the KingAir, it sounds like a rich NASCAR fan. I used to hate flying my boss to the Daytona 500 and other Winston Cup races. After the race, one-thousand IFR aircraft would jocky for position, propellers spinning, as they nudged each other out of the way with their wingtips and converged on the taxiway, like teenagers leaving a drive-in movie back in my day.

dtuuri
 
I assume that the other two were IFR also, just wondering, who did atc give a clearance to first? It would have been nice to get your clearance and had to tell ATC sorry, that gulfstream is blocking the runway just to rub it in his face a bit.

bob burns
 
I've picked up my clearance, taxied and #1 before I was told it could be another 10 minutes. I've just sat there and waited it out. I figured if I offered to do what the OP did, the tower might get aggravated.
 
rbridges said:
I've picked up my clearance, taxied and #1 before I was told it could be another 10 minutes. I've just sat there and waited it out. I figured if I offered to do what the OP did, the tower might get aggravated.
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Here though, according to the OP there was no tower.
 
rbridges said:
I didn't catch that. If I knew the guys behind me were VFR, I probably would have done the same thing.
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Exactly. and if the kerosene burners were consummate professionals they would have refrained from the bully tactics just because the other airplane is a piston. The argument they didn't have comm SA on the whole situation is also rich, seeing how all these guys have multiple comm freq monitoring capability. How many King Air pilots does it take to monitor CTAF on class E ground ops? Apparently more than 2. They must have been real soda straw negotiating that onerous before takeoff checklist on the single-pilot certified jetprop seneca. :rofl:
 
So in this particular case, I got my clearance on the ramp and was told to call clearance back when I was number 1 for departure, which I did and got a hold for release. It was during this time that the gulfstream also got his clearance, but was also held for release. (I had called number 1 for departure). When the controller released me for departure "time now xxxx void if not off by xx", I was supposed to be in the number 1 spot, but by this time I was stuck.

Looking back I probably could have done a 180 and gotten back on the runway after the 2 VFR departures left. It just didn't cross my mind at the time. So I explained to the controller I could be number 2 if the king air let me in, so he released the gulfstream first, and it was then that the king air followed closely behind just like dtuuri mentioned, to prevent me from getting in. I was not happy that they flicked me off. So I explained to the controller I would be number 1 after the king air departs and thats what ended up happening.

So looking back, I could have just continued blocking the runway for the 2 VFR guys, or done a 180 and gotten back on the runway..

The gulfstream and king air got their clearance (as in routing and squawk, etc), but they weren't "cleared to depart" as in released for departure.

I assume the controller thought I was holding short of the runway when I got my clearance, which is why I had such a short void time. From now on I'm going to get my clearance holding short rather than on the ramp to avoid confusion.
 
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Kritchlow said:
I know the thread title makes it sound that way, but the way I read the post was ATC was not the problem, but rather the other airplanes on the ground.
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I'm aware of that as well. I guess what I'm saying is that if three planes are ready for their IFR clearance at the same time, the fastest way for all of them to launch is by fastest to slowest. The Center/Tracon Controller probably doesn't care; he doesn't get off work until midnight :)
 
Brad Z said:
I'm probably more annoyed by the guys taking off with a 1,400 foot ceiling. How are they planning on staying VFR?
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Maybe they were staying in the pattern and it was a field with a 800' TPA.
1400-800 = 600 which is 100' more than being 500' below the clouds. Perfectly legal.
 
JC150 said:
So in this particular case, I got my clearance on the ramp and was told to call clearance back when I was number 1 for departure, which I did and got a hold for release. It was during this time that the gulfstream also got his clearance, but was also held for release. (I had called number 1 for departure). When the controller released me for departure "time now xxxx void if not off by xx", I was supposed to be in the number 1 spot, but by this time I was stuck.

Looking back I probably could have done a 180 and gotten back on the runway after the 2 VFR departures left. It just didn't cross my mind at the time. So I explained to the controller I could be number 2 if the king air let me in, so he released the gulfstream first, and it was then that the king air followed closely behind just like dtuuri mentioned, to prevent me from getting in. I was not happy that they flicked me off. So I explained to the controller I would be number 1 after the king air departs and thats what ended up happening.

So looking back, I could have just continued blocking the runway for the 2 VFR guys, or done a 180 and gotten back on the runway..

The gulfstream and king air got their clearance (as in routing and squawk, etc), but they weren't "cleared to depart" as in released for departure.

I assume the controller thought I was holding short of the runway when I got my clearance, which is why I had such a short void time. From now on I'm going to get my clearance holding short rather than on the ramp to avoid confusion.
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In my experience, when you call for your clearance the controller will ask how long before you are ready to go. If you are not ready at the time you call, he or she will normally give you a hold for release and tell you to notify them when you are ready, especially if you are at a busy uncontrolled airport. The controller would know that there are three IFR departures but there is no way for them to know what in what order they are lined up unless someone tells them.

The only thing that you might have done is, before you taxied on the runway, you could have made radio contact with the Gulfstream and gotten some kind of response. That is presuming you saw them beforehand. Did the Gulfstream ever respond to you?

Then there could be the issue of someone talking or listening on the wrong frequency. Recently I was chewed out by another airplane for not announcing our departure. I came back and said that I announced both taxiing and taking off. Then the unicom chimed in and said that he had heard us both times and the other airplane must have had a listening problem.
 
Not exactly the same situation but one time I was scolded by ATC (tower) for letting a VFR aircraft cut in front of me on taxi when my clearance was on request.

This was at a sleepy little class D airport with MVFR at 1800. I think I was one of maybe 3 planes landing that day.

As I Taxied to the departure end of the runway while waiting for my clearance i noticed an RV coming up on my left at an intersection. So I slowed down waved the guy by and told tower I would be number 2 behind the VFR departure while waiting for my clearance.

They tower lambasted me for messing up and that the RV needed to wait behind me even if it were for an hour while I got my clearance. And I should never do that again at his airport. :confused:

I kind of got the feeling he was more irritated at the RV than me (he got an ear full too) and that they knew each other, like the RV was a local plane and I just got in the middle of a turf war.:redface:
 
SkyDog58 said:
Maybe they were staying in the pattern and it was a field with a 800' TPA.
1400-800 = 600 which is 100' more than being 500' below the clouds. Perfectly legal.
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If it's an area where the class G goes up to 1200 feet they would only have to remain clear of the clouds and could be legal in a 1000' TPA.
 
azure said:
Not sure what you're suggesting here. Should the OP have accepted a void time he didn't think he could make, back taxi to claim the runway, and then when he came up short, sat there and called back and said he was ready to go now? What if the line was busy, or ATC was so busy they told him to stand by? Sounds expeditious for him all right, but not necessarily for everyone else...
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As I understand it, when he got his clearance he was sitting on an intersection taxiway with immediate access to the runway. In that case the best thing for all parties is to go. If he declines the clearance, it just takes more time for center to drop that one and issue a clearance to the next plane. Marginally more time to be sure, this isn't life or death. But if I'm in a position to roll onto the runway and I get my clearance, I'm going. That isn't rude, it's just my turn. As long as I'm satisfied i can do any back-taxiing within the limits of my void time, I don't see any reason for concern. There isn't any "line being busy" he already has his clearance.
 
Everskyward said:
The only thing that you might have done is, before you taxied on the runway, you could have made radio contact with the Gulfstream and gotten some kind of response. That is presuming you saw them beforehand. Did the Gulfstream ever respond to you?
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No he didn't. I don't think he was listening to the CTAF one bit. I KNOW the king air guy was listening, I just think he wanted to make sure he got out before me... the guy who was just trying to get out of the way for 2 VFR aircraft. I think they (the VFR guys) were flying somewhere together because they departed the area in the same direction where the ceilings were a little higher.

The king air guys were just ignorant in my opinion. I have never seen such unprofessionalism by a crew, and to follow it up with giving me the middle finger. They would've been listening to clearance for their release, and they heard me tell the controller that I was going to go behind the gulfstream.
 
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JC150 said:
A good "what would you do" scenario...

I was holding short of the runway at an uncontrolled field and waiting for my IFR release. ATC said it'll be at least 10 minutes due to saturated airspace. 2 VFR aircraft pull up behind me, and since I was blocking their way to the runway, I decided to taxi down the runway to the first exit and get behind them. No big deal right? Now it gets interesting..

I see a Gulfstream taxiing down the taxiway also so I announced my intentions on the CTAF and explained I was waiting for an IFR release and was number 1 and was just moving out of the way for the 2 Cessnas to depart. I thought the Gulfstream would let me in front of him since I was number 1, but as I'm about to turn off the runway, he continues taxiing and stops at the intersection where I'm trying to vacate the runway. I cleared the runway, but I'm not able to get back on the taxiway. Then, I see a King Air taxiing toward us and pull up right behind the gulfstream. I sat there for about 10 minutes before getting released for departure from ATC, in which I told the controller the Gulfstream had to go first because I was stuck between the gulfstream and the runway, but I could be number 2 assuming the king air let me in front.

As the Gulfstream moves towards the runway, I figured the king air would let me in front of him so I start taxiing. What I didn't expect was the King Air also starts taxiing, following very closely behind the gulfstream (like cars tailgating in traffic) followed by a "What are you doing!" on the frequency and the pilot flicking me off. I said I was supposed to be number 2 and the king air just kept taxiing with pilots shaking their heads at me. From the time I initially got to the threshold to the time I actually departed, i spent nearly 35minutes waiting.

So What Would You Do? Would you have just waited and kept the VFR traffic waiting? I made it clear on the frequency that I was just getting out of their way and I felt the Gulfstream should have waited at the intersection for me to get in front of him. What could I have done differently? The field was Marginal VFR so I thought getting released on the ground wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Textbook case of No Good Deed Goes Unpunished.
 
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