IFR oral exam prep

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airheadpenguin

Pre-takeoff checklist
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airheadpenguin
I'm expecting to get my IFR ride done this month, and looking at oral exam prep solutions. I've looked at Dauntless' software and use the ASA book for my PPL.

Any consensus from the CFII community on what's "better"?
 
Neither. The only thing worth a hoot is a good practice oral exam from an instructor who understands the FAA's situationally-based testing concept.

While there's a lot of good material in those "Oral Prep" books, the FAA guidance on practical tests no longer calls for those simple Q&A methods, but rather goes for "situationally based testing." For example, instead of asking you what the VFR weather mins are in Class E airspace, the examiner may ask you whether or not today's weather is good enough to make your planned XC flight under VFR, and how you came to that determination. This will test, in a more realistic manner, not only your rote knowledge of 91.155, but also your ability to apply that knowledge to a practical situation, not to mention your ability to read and interpret all the available weather data, as well as determining from the sectional what airspace you'll be in so you know which paragraph of 91.155 applies along each part of your route. Those old-style Q&A books can't prepare you for that -- only a good instructor familiar with the concept of situationally based testing can.

So, for an IR test, the examiner may look at your flight plan, and ask you why the Alternate block is blank -- and have you justify that answer based on the regs and the weather. Or, if there is an airport there, ask you why you needed to put it there, and how you know it qualifies as a legal alternate today, which requires reference to weather, regs, NOTAMs, and the Terminal Procedures book. This is very different from the old days where an examiner would simply ask you "What's the required weather at your destination to not file an alternate? Can you use this approach as an alternate? What are the standard alternate minimums? Are the alternate minimums at this airport nonstandard?" and makes you think and analyze, not just parrot.

Now, there are still a few old-school examiners who pull out the Oral Test Prep book and start asking questions from it, but they are getting much fewer and farther between. Your instructor should be familiar with the testing styles of the local examiners, so s/he should be able to help you prepare, and give you a practice oral that reasonably accurately reflects that style.
 
The guy who did my PPL did the oral much more as a conversation than anything else. He even taught during it which was great, since I admittedly showed up with less knowledge than I should have had. The same DPE is doing my IR ride so I have a good idea of his approach but recognize that the stakes are higher this time around and intend to show up prepared.
 
Ron, if you ran the show at the FAA on this would you have a preference for either style?
 
Ron Levy said:
Neither. The only thing worth a hoot is a good practice oral exam from an instructor who understands the FAA's situationally-based testing concept.

While there's a lot of good material in those "Oral Prep" books, the FAA guidance on practical tests no longer calls for those simple Q&A methods, but rather goes for "situationally based testing." For example, instead of asking you what the VFR weather mins are in Class E airspace, the examiner may ask you whether or not today's weather is good enough to make your planned XC flight under VFR, and how you came to that determination. This will test, in a more realistic manner, not only your rote knowledge of 91.155, but also your ability to apply that knowledge to a practical situation, not to mention your ability to read and interpret all the available weather data, as well as determining from the sectional what airspace you'll be in so you know which paragraph of 91.155 applies along each part of your route. Those old-style Q&A books can't prepare you for that -- only a good instructor familiar with the concept of situationally based testing can.

So, for an IR test, the examiner may look at your flight plan, and ask you why the Alternate block is blank -- and have you justify that answer based on the regs and the weather. Or, if there is an airport there, ask you why you needed to put it there, and how you know it qualifies as a legal alternate today, which requires reference to weather, regs, NOTAMs, and the Terminal Procedures book. This is very different from the old days where an examiner would simply ask you "What's the required weather at your destination to not file an alternate? Can you use this approach as an alternate? What are the standard alternate minimums? Are the alternate minimums at this airport nonstandard?" and makes you think and analyze, not just parrot.

Now, there are still a few old-school examiners who pull out the Oral Test Prep book and start asking questions from it, but they are getting much fewer and farther between. Your instructor should be familiar with the testing styles of the local examiners, so s/he should be able to help you prepare, and give you a practice oral that reasonably accurately reflects that style.
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That was my experience. The week before my checkride, my CFII and I spent probably about two hours with her quizzing me on anything and everything, utilizing her memory and the ASA book. I had taken my written a few weeks earlier so everything was still quite fresh. In fact, we found a few mistakes in the ASA book.

My DPE used the ASA book for about a third of his questions, and the rest of the questions were "scenario based." He was my DPE for my PPL, and the oral did not end when we left his office to fly, but continued throughout the flight.

In the end, I learned more during my checkride than I did on any single lesson during training.
 
Ron Levy said:
Neither...books can't prepare you for that
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That's a little silly. In order to answer "scenario-based" questions, you have to know the underlying material, which remains the same no matter how the question is worded.
 
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dmspilot said:
That's a little silly. In order to answer "scenario-based" questions, you have to know the underlying material, which remains the same no matter how the question is worded.
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Far from silly. There is often a big leap from rote memerorization to scenario based questions. Yes, you still have to know the underlying material. A good CFII will let you know what subjects you need to look at. Most test prep material seems to be geared toward the written exam.
 
My oral was pretty much, show me we're ready to make today's instrument flight. As CRon says, we went over the pilot certification/currency, aircraft certification/airworthiness, my flight plan. Lots of "what if's" along the way. What if the weather was worse. What if we lost comm at this point in the flight, etc...
 
Scenario based doesn't mean you don't have to know the fundamentals. A checkride prep CD or book may not simulate an oral exam, but you have every right to expect it to cover the material tested on the exam. I would definitely suggest that you get one of the checkride prep products from either Dauntless, ASA, or Gold Seal.

Dauntless is software. ASA is a hardcopy book. And Gold Seal is an audio CD (listen while you drive).
 
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flyingron said:
My oral was pretty much, show me we're ready to make today's instrument flight. As CRon says, we went over the pilot certification/currency, aircraft certification/airworthiness, my flight plan. Lots of "what if's" along the way. What if the weather was worse. What if we lost comm at this point in the flight, etc...
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There do seem to be many different ways to conduct a scenario-based oral. Mine started with today's flight, which I correctly answered was a no-go, but it was no-go due to icing and not the kind of high-wind, borderline LIFR situation that he wanted me to have to deal with, so he "changed" the weather for the rest of the exam. Actually he wanted to steer me to have to choose a straight-in landing in a screaming tailwind over a CTL to the opposite runway. He basically forbade so many other options that would have existed in reality that it seemed quite artificial -- and all to hammer home a point that I had learned in actual IMC just a month before.
 
Here's a DPE talking about the instrument checkride for almost 2 hours:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSwuDOacTMQ

Some good information in there.
My oral was based around the XC I had planned.
"You're told to fly runway heading, 2,500 expect 5,000 in 10 minutes.
Weather is 300 OVC, upon entering the clouds some water comes in the windshield and fries your radio. What do you do?"
The whole oral was like this, as long as you can APPLY your rote memorization that was obtained from studying for the written then you'll do fine.
 
azure said:
There do seem to be many different ways to conduct a scenario-based oral. Mine started with today's flight, which I correctly answered was a no-go, but it was no-go due to icing and not the kind of high-wind, borderline LIFR situation that he wanted me to have to deal with, so he "changed" the weather for the rest of the exam. Actually he wanted to steer me to have to choose a straight-in landing in a screaming tailwind over a CTL to the opposite runway. He basically forbade so many other options that would have existed in reality that it seemed quite artificial -- and all to hammer home a point that I had learned in actual IMC just a month before.
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Did you post about that? Have a link?
 
dmspilot said:
That's a little silly. In order to answer "scenario-based" questions, you have to know the underlying material, which remains the same no matter how the question is worded.
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They may be necessary, but they are not sufficient.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Did you post about that? Have a link?
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Which, the oral or the IMC experience a month before? I think I posted about both, but don't keep track of the links. This isn't that active a forum, and I'm sure it was here, so you shouldn't have much trouble finding the threads with a search.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned (AFaIR) is the fact that the oral is open book. You really don't have to go and memorize a lot of facts. Most of what you'll be expected to know cold is stuff you should already have in your long term memory from training and studying -- this is something you WANT, right? You've lived and breathed it for a while, you should already know it pretty well. Required instruments for IFR and how they work, how to read the charts (there's a legend anyway, you can always refer to it), how to read and interpret different kinds of approach plates, how to brief for weather, VFR cloud clearances, currency requirements, emergency procedures and lost comms, etc. Everything else you can look up. Just make sure you have a good idea where to look.

My DPE focused on weather, both in his scenarios and in the stump the chump style questioning. I probably asked for it when my answer to how I brief for the weather only included a couple of official FAA products. So there were a lot of things I had to look up. He tried to get me with questions about freezing level, if it's 5C on the ground, where is the freezing level? I said where is this, I will download a skew-T. Of course he wanted me to use the standard lapse rate. I answered correctly but also told him that I would NEVER base an operational decision on the standard lapse rate. He asked me questions about the legalities of using my GPS under IFR that showed that HE was way behind the times re: WAAS. Fortunately my CFII was sitting in on the oral and backed me up. So he finally did get me on one question I should have known: what official products contain information about cloud tops? I mentioned pireps, but forgot about the Area Forecast.

Guess what? I still passed.

Do NOT sweat this too much. If your CFII signs you off for it, trust his judgment that you are ready, and do the best you can.
 
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My oral was tough, really tough. He took my book of approach plates and opened up a random page and said tell me all about this. Same thing with the enroute chart. Mine was a little over three hours, and probably an hour was spent on weather. We never looked at a chart, but we talked about all kinds of scenarios ("Your airplane is not FIKI, so could you fly into this?") and there was definitely things I had to look up (like how the FAA defines "mountainous terrain" for IFR flight) but I did pass. Definitely don't take it lightly.

I used the ASA prep book and I think it did help quite a bit FWIW
 
azure said:
This isn't that active a forum, and I'm sure it was here, so you shouldn't have much trouble finding the threads with a search.
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Joking, right? I looked up just the threads you started and couldn't pick one out to start reading....

Looking for the IMC experience. You may have posted during one my away missions.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Joking, right? I looked up just the threads you started and couldn't pick one out to start reading....

Looking for the IMC experience. You may have posted during one my away missions.
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And she should do the work for you just because you're curious and weren't paying attention the first time?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Joking, right? I looked up just the threads you started and couldn't pick one out to start reading....

Looking for the IMC experience. You may have posted during one my away missions.
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It was last December, first part of the month, and I meant THIS FORUM, as in Cleared for the Approach. Should be pretty easy to find.

Mir: I didn't mean to imply that the OP should take it lightly, not at all. Just that you should be able to pass without a lot of rote memorization. That said, it sounds like you had the DPE from Hell. My whole session with the DPE lasted nearly three hours too, but the first 30-45 minutes was making sure I had all the required documentation and training. The oral proper I think was a little over 2 hours.
 
azure said:
It was last December, first part of the month, and I meant THIS FORUM, as in Cleared for the Approach. Should be pretty easy to find.

Mir: I didn't mean to imply that the OP should take it lightly, not at all. Just that you should be able to pass without a lot of rote memorization. That said, it sounds like you had the DPE from Hell. My whole session with the DPE lasted nearly three hours too, but the first 30-45 minutes was making sure I had all the required documentation and training. The oral proper I think was a little over 2 hours.
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Oh no, I didn't think you implied that at all. I've briefly mentioned here before some of the issues I had in the days leading up to the exam, so it was partially my fault, partially my CFIs fault and partially the DPEs fault (I was his first exam with the new PTS.. a Guinea pig, if you will). My DPE is extremely thorough no doubt. We spent an hour qualifying the airplane which I didn't expect at all, but it was qualified thankfully. I started the oral at 0730 and didn't get done until 1100.
 
The FAA has been using the situational approach for orals for a while. http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44145&highlight=passed has the details of my IR ride(s). This was in September 2011. You have to know the "stuff" to deal with this sort of oral exam. As an examinee I thought it was fair and thorough.

Best of luck. The IR ride is tough. You'll feel like a million dollars once you pass.
 
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